Enchanced Edition - Discussion

[Twily]

I tried logging in on NWNEE and it did let me. It also sent a message to the DMs notifying that I was using NWNEE as soon as I was in, for one reason or another..

That's seems pretty impressive that he got that to work, although I do worry how it will impact the newer NWNEE players to see an adult server so heavily populated compared to the others.

[Freyason]

That said, none of the other servers appear to be preparing to make that transition. Sinfar has said they would if needed but would prefer not to, PoTM seems indifferent. Amia is most openly hostile, while expected it was to a degree I didn't anticipate, slamming beamdog for giving Arelith a "head start" on moving over and basing data/research on Liareth's own interest in the server.

I was curious about this too so I checked 2 servers I played on years ago on first day (and since). Avlis is excited and I saw DMs and Server Owner posting on EB forums thanking them. Every Amia dev I saw in their thread posted in favor of it. Are you talking about the very loud voice of Good Luck Budly, who has some previous beef with Arelith (banned from it or some such)?

EB forums seem like who's who of nwn server owners and devs.

I like that people are questioning things and companies should always be held accountable, but getting rich through $20 on 15 year old game thing... They'd be better off picking up late shifts at local Tim Horton's to make some side cash.

[One Two Three Five]

Or working for EA for that hot hot loot box money.

Cormyr&Dalelands has said they need to switch over when it's stable, and I believe City of Arabel devs mentioned the same plans on their forum. Believe Higher Ground has similar plans. The loudest non-goodluck dissent I've seen is here actually, but that's probably due to how this forum ends up operating/the number of people on it.

Seems like at this point the switch is happening across NWN, it's just a matter of when a particular server changes over.

[TimeAdept]

In fact, I'd say Amia has a better chance than Arelith of getting a working module up and running ASAP, because it's certain that they rely less heavily on NWNX than Arelith does.

Amia has a ton under the hood relying on nwnx and databases - dynamic instances areas, the entire spawn and encounter system is run via nwnx and forum databases, part of the loot matrices are on there, the live area updater for DMs and devs is on there, a good 80% of the DM tools interface with the forum DB and nwnx to allow for use and changes on the fly, the entire job and crafting system is hooked into the DB too. That's not countnig things interfacing with the hak and the changes to things like dev crit.

The problem is they really no longer have the manpower or the talent to do these changes beyond 1 or 2 people if they prove to be even remotely difficult to do. It is by far Amia's biggest obstacle to getting anything done these days - there's a lot going on that was handled and created as the magnum opus of previous devs who don't exist anymore, and no current dev wants to try to dive into the code.

[BegoneThoth]

So are some servers going cross version? Big if true.

[Purplemyst]

I tried logging in on NWNEE and it did let me. It also sent a message to the DMs notifying that I was using NWNEE as soon as I was in, for one reason or another..

That's seems pretty impressive that he got that to work, although I do worry how it will impact the newer NWNEE players to see an adult server so heavily populated compared to the others.

I might give their rp server a go till Arelith is on there. I’ve been dying to try it on a proper server.

[One Two Three Five]

So are some servers going cross version? Big if true.

Sinfar appears to have found a way to spoof version number so it shows up on EE listings, but Liareth's pointed out problems above. (And I'm willing to bet now that they were kind enough to point out the bug, it'll get squished in the next version)

[BegoneThoth]

It will be interesting if any server can allow connections from both clients.

I would hope Beamdog doesn't 'correct' any 'bugs' that allow people to host and play how they want.

[Ebonstar]

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[Ebonstar]

No, this is wrong - these things were available on one server, Sinfar, which used custom client-side NWNCX code - not all servers. Nothing to do with haks. You could remake the same piece of armour and duplicate it hundreds of times to get different combinations of colours, but you couldn't have per-part colouring on one item.

Where it has been available for several years. Sinfar was the innovator, but other less long lived servers such as Thessir and Arch had also used the coding the Sinfar devs created. I used hak in this instance to denote a server with additional features or custom changes not found in default NWN.

There's nothing stopping you doing the same to Arelith with 1.69 aside from the old and now defunct policy of plug-n'-play. This is something a dev could already do without paying Beamdog.

Of course it's technically possible to enable cross play, but it's not technically feasible; it would add a significant burden to every change we make. It's unrealistic to expect cross play. This is not how any of the patches or expansions in the past have worked, and this is not how any patches or expansions in most games work.

Beamdog claimed it wasn't possible, and difficult or not one man did what a team of devs claimed could not be done in less than a couple of days. I think better of them than to assume hobbyists like Mavrixio are more skilled than they are, rather more likely they would prefer us to buy their version. Which is fine, but I bit more honesty wouldn't have gone amiss.

This statement is misleading. Mavrixio managed to fudge the 1.69 netcode to accept connections from 1.74 clients, but that doesn't mean that the 1.69 server sends all of the required information to the 1.74 client - it just means that a connection was made successfully.

It works enough to access the server and do atypical IG actions. Searching for incompatibilities and rectifying them is something that would need to be done anyway.

Priority can be given to the script of the host, and most online worlds have their own changes and files needed to play anyway. Changing connections and using overrides is fairly normal of a NWN online experience.

It's doubly misleading because a 1.74 client would receive a significantly degraded experience on Sinfar because 1.74 clients don't have access to Sinfar's NWNCX plugin which is responsible for allowing all of the things you wrote about in your first paragraph - therefore, 1.74 clients connecting to a 1.69-hosted Sinfar would see everything in a very broken way.

Mav has said he's more than happy to share the stuff in his plugin with Beamdog and he has said he could make a version for 1.74 if there was good cause for moving Sinfar to EE. I don't see much reason to doubt this since he has done so in the past.

As I said earlier, if it gets new players that will be a good thing as will more comparability with new drivers. However as of yet that's literally all we, and I can include me because I have got EE head start, seem to be getting.

I think as time goes on people are more tech savvy, and especially in this area of older games people do tent to realize or even desire to download extra content to soup up the game. So additional features like plug ins etc aren't really as big an issue as is made out. Using Sinfar as the example again, it takes pressing go on a self-installer to set up their stuff; that's hardly a cumbersome process for the end user. It took more effort on my part to buy/install NWN and EE originally.

Mav is simply trying to keep his porn palace server alive. Sinfar is far from what anyone would call an innovator or the normal. Half of the player logins before gamespy crashed with nothing but ghost bots to keep them in the top population counts, I doubt that has changed either

[One Two Three Five]

They got removed from NWNlist for that, I think- but a good number of their login count is their web client, which is some sort of NWN-linked IRC. Idunno. I'm sure it works with the current version, but I'd be surprised if that sort of thing worked with the final release.

[Ebonstar]

Since Liareth found what he did, im thinking it wont last more than a few days

[nobs3]

I know nothing about coding and such. But if there would be less hardcoded, will we have a chance that...

- we can ride wrogs!
- more freedom to design how many henchmen, summons and such you can have and how they interrelate/ dont interfere?
- what about flying?
- will there be something new regarding ships?

It is just not clear to me what might be possible soon and what are main chances / innovations Devs are looking for when all is tranferred and working as intened.

[Black Wendigo]

If this means I can play a Minotaur pc who can maze people I'm in .

[Dalek Caan]

I want to dare a gaze into the future.

Are haks still up for discussion with NWNEE? Considering it would be much easier to keep every player up to date with Steam-autodownloads (or the same via the beamdog client) it would make a fair deal of sense to me.

Going on from there, will Arelith dive into curating their own hak-paks? I'd love to see that since what I've seen from other hak-paks, 90 to 95% of the content is... not good.

As for the change to NWNEE... I really think this is one of the best "Apple Innovation" moments ever. In a good way, mind you: Making something unsupported to make it possible for something new to become a standard. Quickly.

As soon as Arelith switches from 1.69 to EE, I'll be in. Even though I don't play much I'd love to see a slightly prettier, significantly more performant server which has an even wider potential of development and change. I'm not sure how the idea that people are forced to pay for what they already have has come to life. I read through the release notes and yes, I wasn't overly impressed. Buuuut: These changes may not be hugely visible at first but they open up a lot of freedom, ease of development and, most importantly, the stable playerbase of the server. I'd say it's mostly a structural thing, something that happens "behind the curtains".

So, thumbs to Liareth, the Arelith devs who made such a clear decision and of course also to Beamdog. You'll have my 20 bucks.

[susitsu]

i'm personally really excited for these innovative assassin nerfs

[MoreThanThree]

i'm personally really excited for these innovative assassin nerfs

This, but unironically

[Conversations With Your Car Alarm]

- Per-part armour colouring. (https://i.imgur.com/vrjQ5aE.mp4)

This alone is worth $20

[Ebonstar]

the new discussion now is how Mav is trying to convince people to stay at 1.69 with their servers since Beamdog wont help him with his demands to truly convert Sinfar. His version spoof is the only thing giving him credibility, but the bad thing is a few on fb forums have started to back him.

[Rivace_Silver]

the new discussion now is how Mav is trying to convince people to stay at 1.69 with their servers since Beamdog wont help him with his demands to truly convert Sinfar. His version spoof is the only thing giving him credibility, but the bad thing is a few on fb forums have started to back him.

care to provide links to such discussions?

[Ebonstar]

OK, so NWN EE player CAN connect to 1.69 servers, this has been achieved and confirmed by Sinfar developer Mavrixio;
(Many of us avoid Sinfar but please focus on what he is saying here!)

"Mavrixio Posts: 10
November 24 edited November 25
I patched Sinfar 1.69 server to be compatible with NWN:EE client. Only a few bits to change here and there, no thanks to the help of NWN:EE devs though... It would have been easier with their help but it was completely refused"

What strikes me as interesting is that one person alone achieved this with relative ease, whereas Beamdog continues to declare it an impossible and inconceivable feature.

The rest of Mavrixio's post can be read on the Beamdog forums at this link, I am delighted with his resolve to continue working on cross compatibility as EE is changed/updated, even if Beamdog continues to resist and obstruct this essential feature.

OK, so NWN EE player CAN connect to 1.69 servers, this has been achieved and confirmed by Sinfar developer Mavrixio;
(Many of us avoid Sinfar but please focus on what he is saying here!)

https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A ... 9wzUbwMH1E

David Roussel Simple and obvious way, the same that everyone does - vote with your wallet.

Don't like the direction that this is headed - don't buy it. Plain and simple.
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Sean Cawley
Sean Cawley Of course, but I am trying to get Beamdog to commit to this essential feature because it would bring new blood to persistent worlds, and in turn, offer new EE players this wealth of content and persistent worlds.
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Sean Cawley
Sean Cawley Giving that to EE players would be a huge selling point, so its good for Beamdog too
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Sean Cawley
Sean Cawley Not to mention how many copies us nutty NWN vets would buy in appreciation and propagation of EE if they do it right
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David Roussel
David Roussel I know, I've lost count at the number of NWN copies I've obtained via GoG for myself, friends, family. Hell even gave a couple away to total strangers too
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Sean Cawley
Sean Cawley If Beamdog refuses, the community will just do it by themselves as Mav did, and despise the developer for being so unhelpful/obstructive
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Sean Cawley
Sean Cawley Profit wise they need to rethink this one
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Sean Cawley
Sean Cawley I personally bought either 7 or 8 copies of NWN diamond, i cant remember, and yeah they were mostly shared around
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David Roussel
David Roussel At the moment - the direction that beamdog is heading is the EXACT same direction that Obsidian Entertainment took with NWN2.

They didn't listen to the community and look at what happened. Oh I'm sure single unit sales were ok but as to PW's.... I don't need to show anyone on here how badly NWN2 has done in regards to PW'
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Marcus Hedström
Marcus Hedström This is further proof of the ingenuity of the NWN community. I personally would not play on Sinfar but they got some wickedly talented devs I hear.
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Sean Cawley
Sean Cawley I know they will sell more if its compatible, because we will buy it, and share it, and many of the others will switch over if their world is filling with people talking about the great new UI / graphics etc
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Marcus Hedström
Marcus Hedström Exactly, Sean. But graphics? Has it been upgraded anything at all?
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Sean Cawley
Sean Cawley The graphics are not massively changed, but i noticed a much nicer.. vibrancy to the look of buildings in the distance
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Sean Cawley
Sean Cawley nicer looking for sure, but they need to get their head's screwed back on if they think casting aside all existing worlds is going to win the most customers
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Marcus Hedström
Marcus Hedström They need to get more than Arelith with them on this train. I hope they do understand that.
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Quincy Clifton
Quincy Clifton The way I see it, alot of their sales for EE is gonna come from old players wanting to experience NWN with all the fancy enhancements. But without that compatibility, most won't see the point in buying into it. Not that I'm saying anything we don't already know.
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just some of it but you get the gist and the link the beamdog posting

[Cortex]

There has been some unwarranted subtle hostility toward Sinfar in some posts.

Better to avoid that.

[BegoneThoth]

They did it once only a matter of time until it's made totally cross compatible both ways. Going to be nice to have options.

[Ebonstar]

There has been some unwarranted subtle hostility toward Sinfar in some posts.

Better to avoid that.

I was asked to link it. And your right

[Ebonstar]

They did it once only a matter of time until it's made totally cross compatible both ways. Going to be nice to have options.

Liareth already explained how and what was done and why it wont work