Bring back Underdark 3 Greater Gifts

[Xanos950]

Roleplay isn't supposed to be balanced. Your race is either strong or it isn't, but none are equal. So i'm for a drow buff, and i'm not even playing one at the moment.

[Harasha]

I counter with an assertion that Duergar need a buff. They haven't been able to hold steady enough numbers to have a faction of their own in... oof... nearly a full year now?

They did just get a strength buff. They are really one of the more powerful races (not to mention poison immunity, which in the underdark is an amazing quality of life enhancement.) If you want a strong battle-cleric or spellsword in the UD, they're pretty ideal.

I think one problem is they just aren't a sexy, drama-ready race like the drow, which isn't something that can really be helped, and they don't have a home base or support network. I play one, and I admit I was a little disappointed the embassy in City Port didn't have any special amenities for duergar players.. Like a hall that only they can enter, where they could set up a network like Brog has above... Unless I am missing it!

[Tarkus the dog]

duergar are literally stronger than dwarves ( which are a busted race atm ) like hello??? give me more buffs please... smiley face.

[Stath]

A races mechanical power has little bearing on how many characters of said race are played (Unless it's signidicantly stronger by a very large margin than baseline): I imagine the lack of interest in Duergar is less due to their perceived weakness and more due to people simply not being attracted to roleplaying a Duergar.

[flower]

The duergar immunity to paralise and strenght boost are far too good for only ecl 1 compared to what others get for ecl 2

In general i believe this systém needs re work. Because it is far from being fair or even balancing, from mechanical point of view.

Human has no ecl, yet gets one free feat and 30 sklil points which means human builds are always step ahead and you can také even more feat starving combination. In base NWN they get these bonuses in Exchange for elven/dwarven/alike modified stats, but not on arelith not anymore they can simple pick two major gifts to even out this ofset. While being mechanically powerful they on top get option to customize their abilities by further +4 if this is not power creepthen what?

Then other races rated ecl 0 with time were slowly getting boons here and here. Free feats, AC, and so on and never got ECL increase. Like Wild Elf and half orcish dual feats. Beside these small boons also received numerous race-based items.

Then we got races with increased ECL. They get it mostly because of rp flavor. While some things would too much with gifts (aasimars, tieflings and ogres), the others are stucked with pre defined builds, unable to customize their abilities for something else. If i leave paralise immunity of Duergar, then most subrace abilities are lagging heavily behind free feat, 30 skill points and +4 ability gift boons.

The ECL influence onto gifts should be removed, or maybe time to remove gifts altogether. If they serve to customize characters, then allow player to lower ability by two and increase another by 2.

[Opustus]

duergar are literally stronger than dwarves ( which are a busted race atm ) like hello??? give me more buffs please... smiley face.

The cost is playing a socially crippled CHA4 goober, which in my mind is like having the conversational skills of a rock.

[Fallout]

- Drows if united would be strongest arelith force! Main issue is RP. Strongest periods of Andunor are when Tyrant Matrons or once Orog were in charge, now power ia not centralistic but this also brings lots of RP, right?

- mechanic changes not needed

- Duergars are back!!!And tend to stay, there is Dwarf Smasher Clan in Sharp with 7 active duergars and counting, really no buffs needed there. Also huge reaction of players on this return who accept us greatly, kudos lads and lasses.

- Burrowhome hq of svirfs? ummm...."yes!"

[-XXX-]

So by referencing pit town, you could not possibly have made a more terrible comparison.

Well, I'm going to say that is a matter of opinion. Yes, monster races come with the huuuge downside of being restricted out of a vast server content area-wise as well as some other restrictions and arguably higher expectations as far as RP goes. Human outcasts on the other hand sort of "get around" many of these restrictions which doesn't seem fair.

On the other hand, whether you prefer the former or the latter is a matter of playstyle. Some players do not mind the monster race restrictions, other players prefer the relative freedom that playing an outcast human brings with it.

What I was aiming at is that expelling outcasts from Andunor would be a step back as I am fairly certain that the majority of players who chose to play outcasts would probably rather make a surfacer character than a monster race in said scenario. This would have devastating impact on Andunor and yes... it would probably diminish to a semi-pointless waste of server space that the Pit Town used to be.


One way or another, without further needless digressions - playing a monster race is a choice. Choice available to all players. I do not believe that this choice warrants to be "sold" by offering additional mechanical power [or that such thing should even be considered]. This is an RP server, not bastions of war, eh?

[flower]

One way or another, without further needless digressions - playing a monster race is a choice. Choice available to all players. I do not believe that this choice warrants to be "sold" by offering additional mechanical power [or that such thing should even be considered]. This is an RP server, not bastions of war, eh?

There is also no need for them being on mechanical disadvantage. Or is there?

Whatever many people would think, mechanics are big part of character, and if you are restricted in what you can succesfully build up, you may simple rather pick something else.

[One Two Three Five]

Is this thread for real pretending that drow and duergar (minimum) are weaker than surface races? Hell, drow get their own custom gifts now. You can't even say 'oh but humans' because humans are a UD race too.

And you can't force people to be 'afraid' of drow through mechanical superiority. (Especially not on a server where the Abyss and Hell are, uh, if not easy to get into, then not hard.)

[Tarkus the dog]

duergar are literally stronger than dwarves ( which are a busted race atm ) like hello??? give me more buffs please... smiley face.

The cost is playing a socially crippled CHA4 goober, which in my mind is like having the conversational skills of a rock.

roleplaying stats in 2018?

xdddd

[flower]

Is this thread for real pretending that drow and duergar (minimum) are weaker than surface races? Hell, drow get their own custom gifts now. You can't even say 'oh but humans' because humans are a UD race too.

And you can't force people to be 'afraid' of drow through mechanical superiority. (Especially not on a server where the Abyss and Hell are, uh, if not easy to get into, then not hard.)

It has nothing to do with forcing people to fear anyone.

Custom gifts DO TAKE away 2 abilities in Exchange for another, gifts do not.

And it has nothing to do with humans present or not present in UD as well.

Svirfs: ECL 2
Duergars: ECL 1
Drow: ECL 2


And so on. It has to do with that their surface alternatives are having more variety how is possible to build them via extra free feats and skills (humans) or simple by adding another +4 abilities (and with variaous elven subraces you may even customize it further by proper pick).

Just duergars get lots of stre, get option for gift, and have immunities (which are very strong).

And it is not about pvp, it influences how smooth passing in epic places you have as well.

[One Two Three Five]

Compromise: Bring back the SR gift (which was removed, what, because it was Too Strong?) and let drow take 1 gift to compensate losing their unique feature.

Also, uh, you think you're going to have a fun time hitting epic in the UD (where it's apparently hard to level? What? Have you played down there recently, it's babytime frolicks leveling) with a +5 ECL you are in for a hilarious set of forum complaints about how ECL works.

[-XXX-]

There is also no need for them being on mechanical disadvantage. Or is there?

I do not believe that monster races being on a mechanical disadvantage in comparison to any other standard PC race would be (or ever has been) a valid statement.

[flower]

Compromise: Bring back the SR gift (which was removed, what, because it was Too Strong?) and let drow take 1 gift to compensate losing their unique feature.

Also, uh, you think you're going to have a fun time hitting epic in the UD (where it's apparently hard to level? What? Have you played down there recently, it's babytime frolicks leveling) with a +5 ECL you are in for a hilarious set of forum complaints about how ECL works.

I played high ECL characters on surface. It was so easy i could solo from low levels to epics. What is that an argument? It is as easy as is in UD and surface character can freely go below, as mine did, anytime they wish.

[Sab1]

Honestly I do not want the devs to be constantly tinkering with races and classes. I personally think it's best for the server if they can focus on content and updating areas.

[BegoneThoth]

duergar are literally stronger than dwarves ( which are a busted race atm ) like hello??? give me more buffs please... smiley face.

The cost is playing a socially crippled CHA4 goober, which in my mind is like having the conversational skills of a rock.

roleplaying stats in 2018?

xdddd

[JediMindTrix]

Honestly I do not want the devs to be constantly tinkering with races and classes. I personally think it's best for the server if they can focus on content and updating areas.

a lone voice of reason

[Seekeepeek]

Honestly I do not want the devs to be constantly tinkering with races and classes. I personally think it's best for the server if they can focus on content and updating areas.

a lone voice of reason

I agree so much. I think even Irongron agree, atliest from a post i did read some time ago. The reason they are pushing it, is because they want to be ready for the NWN EE release. When Arelith is moved, they plan to take a break. That's how i understood it anyway.

[PresidentCthulhu]

Once upon a time when third edition D&D came out they removed race class restrictions. In order to balance things out they had a cool idea to give humans some actual mechanical advantages too (before it it was congrats you are human). It is really nice because it makes human a very good choice so they actually can end up being the majority in groups (which is the normal in most, but not all settings).

My personal opinion is that just because someone start with 17-18 in primary stat instead of 19-20 they still gonna be awesome. You can still possibly create anything you want from a drow. There is no need for everything to be perfect mechanically.

Although one must recognize that stat changes matter so much that since the buff of orogs and duergars there are more of them (which I’m happy for even though I don’t play them it adds so much color to the palette). And since the nerf of goblins there are much less sacrifical goblins around. Which was also a good call.

[The_Queen~s_Rebuke]

Don't post grievances of other players' characters on the forums. It will get deleted. Keep on track, guys.

[JediMindTrix]

The gift nerf was necessary but it came with the unfortunate consequence of moving things more towards a second edition style of race/class combo's.

[ProbablyAMage]

duergar are literally stronger than dwarves ( which are a busted race atm ) like hello??? give me more buffs please... smiley face.

The cost is playing a socially crippled CHA4 goober, which in my mind is like having the conversational skills of a rock.

In my experience this is mitigated by the fact that a Duergar can be as loudly rude as they want (assuming they aren't poking at Matrons, etc.) and people excuse it because....they're Duergar. Granted, sometimes it backfires, but even my much more powerful Drow characters couldn't have gotten away with a tenth of what my Duergar has. Their cultural disposition towards surliness and bitter anger is mostly accepted for what it is, the same way no one expects a goblin to speak in complete sentences, or a Drow to have a firm grasp on the concept of 'loyalty'.

[Durvayas]

Duergar being rude is accepted as a cultural given to the point where unless its excessive, and towards a high ranking drow, the drow don't even really mind. They view it with a measure of amusement.

Sort of like if an irishman was to go to me and say "Yer a handsome bastard laddie" or some such, I wouldn't take the bastard bit as an insult. Its just how they talk(stereotypically, but a sound example.)

Conversely, a polite duergar is considered a rarity, and its considered great respect for them to NOT be rude. A polite duerger can easily go far in politicking. A solid example would be the PC known as "The Duke" who enjoyed great favor among the drow back in the day.