Dice Rolls & RP Tools

[Anomander]

Hello All,

Something I've been mulling over as I get more familiar with the server. I like that we can get a passing understanding of a character's "attributes," (ability score spread) upon examination. If you take a moment to look it can add a little flavor to RP.

That said, this seems to me to be the only place where the mechanics that make our characters "unique" really come into play in RP. This means that the separation between "player" and "character" is not as profound and easy to create. Here's what I mean. If I'm playing a sorcerer with 30 + charisma I can write persuasively and attempt to "be charismatic." That is limited to my ability as a player to actually communicate in that way (same with intelligence etc). What I cannot do is walk into a group of people, emote flashing a winning smile, and roll a d20+charisma modifier to quantify and really exhibit that. It also adds a fun element of chance, as even the most charismatic of us can stumble on our words or look a fool occasionally.

This becomes even more pronounced with skills, some of which are "almost" useless (especially compared to alternatives) due to the lack of ability to use them in RP (Intimidate, Persuade etc). I know this isn't PNP but there is a very good and powerful reason as to why this is such an exciting part of the RP in PNP that I believe translates very well to online RP gaming.

I recognize there are potential problems/challenges incorporating this but frankly they are all easily mitigated by a carefully thought out implementation. I have seen this done on on other servers to great effect. Practically speaking, here are several considerations.

Tool for Ability & Skill checks dice rolls:
-Frequency cap (so people can't spam it)
-Articulate few simple explicit ground rules on the tool: Like it is not required that anyone abide by them, they are just there to enrich the experience. If someone rolls a 40 intimidate check there is no required DC for me to beat but it is an opportunity to respond to some extent in accordance with how intimidating that character ACTUALLY IS. If you want to be super by the book and roll your own check in response plus abide by the outcome, more power too you

I can't imagine it would clutter up chat or engine notifications more than other things already do and the added fun plus flavor to RP while letting us flex the unique aspects of our characters is profound. If it's established that you needn't to abide them them rigidly all it does is offer opportunities to the community RPing to respond to these cool exhibitions of skill with a some great RP. Curious to hear peoples thoughts and feedback on the concept. Thanks for your time!

[R0GUE]

This is something I've seen in a lot of PW's I think CEP has a tool already, but given what I've seen you guys develop without CEP I'm sure you could easily replicate it without any haks.

For one I'd just like a way to represent perform checks to those nearby so they can see how well I am singing or playing songs. Also a circumstance came up last night where someone nearby "muttered something under his breath" and I would have loved a tool to do a "listen check" to determine what he said.

Mike Mearls has a really good video about this on DnDBeyond where he discusses social interactions using dice and when and when not to use them. The OP is going in the right direction when he says that if you are someone who is not innately charismatic, but you are playing a high charisma character, whip out those dice and give persuade a roll. You'll never be able to force a another PC to do something against their will, but you can effectively represent how well your character made their case.

Edit: sorry it wasn't Mike Mearls it was Jeremy Crawford. Here is the link if anyone wants to check it out.

https://youtu.be/Gh01591jjtI

[Sockss]

If you would like to change your characters RP based on dice rolls, then that's great. You can even do that from within NWN with the dX console commands and a bit of addition.

The ultimate intent behind a publicly displayed system like this, is affect other peoples RP based on dice rolls.

I'd argue that this has not, at least not that I've seen, been successful anywhere. No one likes being told how their character should react. No one likes being gripped by a big ol' half-orc with no possibility to escape and being a puppet, because that relevant opposed check is not high enough. Etc.

As you pointed out, you could ignore it anyway (or you could jump into PvP in the second case). However it tends to result in two camps that won't RP with each other (One that will use dice rolls and one that will ignore them).

It's also much more immersive IMO to have people try and reflect a skill in their emotes and speech, I'm wholeheartedly against *Sings a super-awesome 80 perform song*, or "Grrr. *Has 60 intimidate*" Etc.

[PinataPlethora]

This has been brought up in the past, but repeatedly knocked down, because it can't be effectively enforced and a lot of the time, it's just not fun.

You're absolutely welcome to change your own character's behavior based on die rolls, but I wouldn't expect to ever have others held to that standard. RPR takes into account how well players RP what is on their character sheet, so if they're playing low CHA as high, for example, it'll be reflected.

The best way to play is to only worry about your own RP, and surround yourself with others who are focused on RP, while setting as good an example for less experienced RPers as you can.

[Iceborn]

This would change a great deal about the perception of roleplay in Arelith, and honestly I'm not sure if we want that.
I've seen it used poorly more often than not, and I've seen it can also be a great tool to solve many situations.

[The_Queen~s_Rebuke]

Hi, Anomander, welcome to the server! I'm just going to reply here and say, this is more of a suggestion than feedback - in general, this forum is for talking about things that are already in game, what isn't great, how it could be improved, etc. Currently, with the EE switch, Arelith is not taking suggestions until the server is settled, and all the bugs that are cropping up with the adjustment are fixed. Thank you for the input and the interest, however!

[Queen Titania]

For the record, Charisma is noted when you examine a character, as High to Low. So you do have a weigh to get it across (Or fake it).

I don't think we will ever implement dice rolls. They are sometimes used by DMs to determine an outcome (As well as to make use and reward characters who invested in social skills like persuade), but between players, we've always preferred the outcome being entirely RPed.

[Nitro]

I quite like that Arelith doesn't have any built-in dice tools, no situations of someone doing something intimidating, rolling intimidate and then expecting everyone to go along because they rolled 62 on the dice tool.

Or a STR character basically getting to do whatever they want in terms of physical interactions just because the dice dictated so, and so on. It's not particularly interactive and moves RP to the side of mechanics. And when people choose to ignore these rolls, it'll generate hurt feelings from the people who feel like their characters stats are being ignored.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

If you would like to change your characters RP based on dice rolls, then that's great. You can even do that from within NWN with the dX console commands and a bit of addition.

The ultimate intent behind a publicly displayed system like this, is affect other peoples RP based on dice rolls.

I'd argue that this has not, at least not that I've seen, been successful anywhere. No one likes being told how their character should react. No one likes being gripped by a big ol' half-orc with no possibility to escape and being a puppet, because that relevant opposed check is not high enough. Etc.

As you pointed out, you could ignore it anyway (or you could jump into PvP in the second case). However it tends to result in two camps that won't RP with each other (One that will use dice rolls and one that will ignore them).

It's also much more immersive IMO to have people try and reflect a skill in their emotes and speech, I'm wholeheartedly against *Sings a super-awesome 80 perform song*, or "Grrr. *Has 60 intimidate*" Etc.

Sockss states the case well here. I am pro for a dicebag myself. Or have been in the past - but I do see the sincere point Sockss has made.

[Anomander]

Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts and taking the time to reply! I was curious to get a pulse on the concept and that is what I got. Noted on the suggestion vs. feedback piece too

[Xerah]

I don't mind dice rolls at all, personally. I've never seen it used to force someone into doing something, just more so to toss out for reference. Sometimes people react to it, sometimes they don't--no one gets bent out of shape either way. It's nice having a bit more feedback to have your character go a certain direction (even if bad).

That said, I don't see it coming here, so you will have to make due! The skill bonuses can be kind of out of control here, so, like how does one react to 100 perform or persuade?

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I think dice rolls undermine what roleplay should really be about (which to me, is some variation of theatre improv class).

However, I do wish more information was available for players regarding another's character Bluff, Persuasion, and Intimidate score (and maybe Perform).

It's a bit of information I know I would take into account more often if I knew there an OOC and IC effort behind a particular brand of roleplay. My reception of a diplomat with actually investment in the "social skills" who is trying to be diplomatic, is vastly different than a fighter/WM diplomat with negative Persuasion. Although roleplay and the quality of interaction are always the most important, these are some of the selection situations where I think we could have more insertion of mechanics. (This stuff is also the most mechanically difficult to design in probably all the iterations of Dungeons and Dragons)

[Poolbrain]

Having the possibility to roll some or most skills would be a nice addition to Role-playing:

There is little RP you can force with the skill rolls as with the attribute rolls.

For example:

BLUFF

sometimes when your character is saying obvious lies but players around are still not realizing while their chars should, rolling a bluff dice is an easy way of furthering the hint and giving the players a chance to catch on.

LORE

Details about your character, what they are doing or saying, should be figured out by a scholar.
Asking some one to roll a lore dice and then send a tell to that one character with further information.

SPELLCRAFT

Same as with lore

Attribute rolling is where the enforcing of certain RP starts to happen.

( Str: 14+20= 34) *Grabs the cheeky halfling with a firm grip around the neck and proceeds to throw it away with the power of a catapult. Watching as it with a squeel slowly disapears into the horizon*

Tell: Why are you still standing around here?

[Liareth]

Having the possibility to roll some or most skills would be a nice addition to Role-playing:

There is little RP you can force with the skill rolls as with the attribute rolls.

For example:

BLUFF

sometimes when your character is saying obvious lies but players around are still not realizing while their chars should, rolling a bluff dice is an easy way of furthering the hint and giving the players a chance to catch on.

LORE

Details about your character, what they are doing or saying, should be figured out by a scholar.
Asking some one to roll a lore dice and then send a tell to that one character with further information.

SPELLCRAFT

Same as with lore

Attribute rolling is where the enforcing of certain RP starts to happen.

( Str: 14+20= 34) *Grabs the cheeky halfling with a firm grip around the neck and proceeds to throw it away with the power of a catapult. Watching as it with a squeel slowly disapears into the horizon*

Tell: Why are you still standing around here?

The same thing can happen with these skills in exactly the same way, though, though.

[Talk] Them: "There are not the droids you are looking for."
[System] Them: Rolls 20 on Bluff.
[Tell] Them -> You: "Why aren't you leaving?"

[Talk] Them: "I try to divine every secret of your character."
[System] Them: Rolls 20 on Lore.
[Tell] Them -> You: "Well, are you going to tell me all your secrets, or what?"

[Talk] Them: "This looks Sharred. I can tell from some of the spells and from seeing quite a few Sharrans in my time."
[System] Them: Rolls 20 on Spellcraft.
[Talk] Them: "Sorry. You can't join the Arcane Tower now. Also, die."

[Void]

I've seen it before elsewhere, and would rather not have it on arelith.

In my experience dice rolls when brought in adds a lot of amazing way to metagame or accidentlaly release sensitive information to public, but it also severely devalues experience, when somebody has maxed stats, or maxed skill, and rather than acting on them, they try to let the rolls do the talking.

In comparison to my previous experience with skill/stat rolls, arelith's roll-less experience is a breath of fresh air. The world feels much more believable when the dices are hidden. I would prefer it to stay this way.

I think the best idea would be - when dealing with social skills - to come up with text and descriptiosn that reflect the score you have.

P.S. One of the problems with skill rolls, by the way, is that a lot of people do not know proper counter roll (for example, they attempt to roll will save vs intimidate, which is incorrect), or that a lot of people do not know that skill rolls do not auto succeed on 20 and do not auto-fail on 1.

[Mithreas]

As the one responsible for maintaining the no-dicebags policy for close to a decade... Sockss pretty much nailed it.

Press ` and then enter d20() and you can roll as many dice as you like. If you agree with the other player to resolve something by contested rolls, then use the honour system and go ahead.

But Arelith is a very broad church, with players with different ideas about "proper" roleplay, different levels of experience, and so on. There are too many ways that dice can detract from the experience (not least because dice rolls are OOC, and we try hard to keep all in game chat IC).

So - our longstanding policy is, use them if you wish via the console, in agreement with other players. But we've never been keen to make them "official".

[Orian_666]

Gotta agree with the sentiment that it'd only ruin things. For the most part.

I'm all for people RPing their stats and skills but adding in actual rolls that everyone (or just the parties involved) can see as a mechanical feature would only lead to power plays that force people into situations and outcomes that they may not be okay with at all. Or as stated too, people that will simply ignore it.

I'm not against people RPing their skills, I've personally even asked people in tells how many points they have in a certain skill so I can personally roll against/with it during RP to let that be the decider of a situation but it's always been voluntary and private, I've also had people do the same with me by asking me.
I've even sometimes sent tells to people with my own skill numbers so they can make informed decisions themselves on certain RP if one of my characters does something that could be supported by a certain stat, feat, or skill, however if anyone ever simply said there was no need for it or that they'd rather not do things that way then that's absolutely fine too.

Basically, it's entirely possible to already do this on a personal and private level without the need of it being mechanically implemented, where as if it were mechanically implemented then we'd only see awkward situations where at least someone is likely not happy with how something went down.

Not to mention it'd likely cause certain situations that are supported mechanically by the die to happen but don't make much sense "realistically". For example if a level 5ish Half-Orc Barbarian with massive Str rolled a Str check against the level 30 Mage to grab a hold of them then it'd most likely win. However that doesn't account for the fact that should he actually attempt it the mage would most likely just incinerate him before he even got close (keep in mind at level 30 you're character is/should be considered to be immensely powerful, at 5 you're basically just a local tough guy). That means the mage is forced to either completely ignore it, go along with it even though he could easily CC, kill, or otherwise maim the Barb, or simply resort to PvP where they'd likely 1 shot the Barb and no one likes bashing or resorting to PvP on people much lower level than them so that's just not fun for anyone.

[Ebonstar]

i played on a server that had dicebags and people would be roll happy to try and get things to go their way.

i also played on one that had the dice bag and it was simply used during DM events of which increased the immersion because the DM was in total control which was good, taking you back to pnp.

for just having it to have it reminds me of the first example and I would have to pass

[flower]

Everyone connects it to skills and similar crap.


But what about things you going to let random decide?

Like flipping a coin? Or similar random roll both parties would agree to. Like sitting somewhere and simple rolling dice in game, instead being forced to find specific area with dice table.

A single roll visible to both parties. Why is everyone locked in mindset you must use it only to force other people into something? Especially every time someone would try that you can just walk off and outright ignore it.

Or just add dice bag as IG item, letting your character to roll

[PinataPlethora]

But what about things you going to let random decide?

Like flipping a coin? Or similar random roll both parties would agree to. Like sitting somewhere and simple rolling dice in game, instead being forced to find specific area with dice table.

A single roll visible to both parties. Why is everyone locked in mindset you must use it only to force other people into something? Especially every time someone would try that you can just walk off and outright ignore it.

Or just add dice bag as IG item, letting your character to roll

I've done this with other players IG, and we just had one character run the game, doing the dice rolls for us, and calling the results. We didn't need to see the rolls, because everyone was a willing participant, and there was no expectation of deceit.

[Sab1]

I always wanted dice but I understand peoples hesitation about them. If they ever did become something ig I would make them just 2d6 and both parties would need to agree if someone wished to use the dice to decide something.

[R0GUE]

I think dice rolls undermine what roleplay should really be about (which to me, is some variation of theatre improv class).

It seems like the majority have spoken on this topic and I don't want to beleaguer the point, but I would like to point out if the aforementioned sentiment is the prevalent reason, well Jeremy Crawford directly brings this up in the video clip I shared:

I also wanna say that it's great when groups are sensitive to the fact that some players really aren't comfortable being improvisational actors, and so I think it's good for groups in that situation to encourage players like that to rely on skill rolls and not feel the pressure to be an actor when that's not their kind of happy place. That's not really why they're at the table. They're really enjoying, I'm sure, the social connections with the other players, but they would feel much more comfortable to use those die rolls to determine how effectively their character is interacting with non-player characters and monsters. Because, as I've said, either approach is good. We've designed the game to be home to both approaches. You've got social interaction with dice and social interaction without dice.

There are many types of players and not everyone even speaks English as a first language, let alone is able to properly "improv" as a CHA20 Bard. Personally, I DO like to improv, and do voices around the tabletop, etc. But D&D allows social dice rolls for those who might get their pleasure elsewhere.

As to the examples mentioned above where people might "force" the other player to react in a way that they don't want to, well, that's certainly not what I think anyone wants, and I would label that kind of thing griefing. Again Crawford brings up the point that:

Sometimes characters at the table will lie to each other and the players in the DM will know it's a lie, but a part of kind of the social contract of D&D is playing along with that ruse, and so to me that's also a fun part of the collective storytelling of D&D, is everyone kind of suspending their disbelief about what is known and what is unknown and also sometimes coming up with creative ways to incorporate meta-game knowledge in a way that feels authentic in-world.

I've played in PW's back when NWN first hit shelves, and in all the worlds I've played in that gave players dice tools, I never felt like it was overly abused. Now true, I took an extended absence until recently, and perhaps the NWN community has changed.

Anyway, I've said my peace, I guess if I really feel its necessary I can use the console, but overall I will respect the wishes of the community at large.

[MoreThanThree]

Skip the dice rolls, bring back the old descriptions that showed us how persuasive our characters were.

[Iceborn]

Arelith is, first and foremost, a roleplay server.
If roleplay is secondary to you, then I'm afraid to tell you, you are in the wrong place.

No one is expected to be good at the game, but the nature of the game is that not disimilar of an improv class, and if you aren't good at it... well, too bad?
I know this may sound cold at best, elitist at worst, but, eclectic as Arelith may be, if you force together two players with completely opposite ideas of how the game should be played - one expecting to build a story, the other thinking Arelith is some kind of MMO/MOBA mix, there's the real chance that they will fail to find a middle ground and from that encounter only frustration will follow.

I like the die, but I've seen it more often abused than not. If you want to rely on those, you can employ them as honor system as mentioned above, but I personally rather Arelith without it, where choices are dictated by eloquence, scenes and conditions (and poorly, by mechanical prowess).

[R0GUE]

Arelith is, first and foremost, a roleplay server.
If roleplay is secondary to you, then I'm afraid to tell you, you are in the wrong place.

No one is expected to be good at the game, but the nature of the game is that not disimilar of an improv class, and if you aren't good at it... well, too bad?
I know this may sound cold at best, elitist at worst, but, eclectic as Arelith may be, if you force together two players with completely opposite ideas of how the game should be played - one expecting to build a story, the other thinking Arelith is some kind of MMO/MOBA mix, there's the real chance that they will fail to find a middle ground and from that encounter only frustration will follow.

I like the die, but I've seen it more often abused than not. If you want to rely on those, you can employ them as honor system as mentioned above, but I personally rather Arelith without it, where choices are dictated by eloquence, scenes and conditions (and poorly, by mechanical prowess).

I want to make one more rebuttal, but this is intended to be a polite response, I am not trying to be overly argumentative I promise, because I see where you are coming from.

First and foremost, roleplay is definitely not secondary to me. I ONLY play on RP-focused servers when it comes to NWN. I am happy Arelith is so roleplay focused and friendly. But to me, being a roleplay server, while improv and acting is part of it, it's not the complete sum of it. To me a roleplay server should not strive to be an acting exercise, it should strive to be a game of Dungeons and Dragons. Dungeons and Dragons is a game, not an exercise, and in that game there are mechanics for social interactions.

In Arelith, PvP is allowed when it comes to physical interactions, why can't PvP also be allowed when it comes to social interactions? That's what the skills persuade and bluff are there for. I understand that the Devs also have given them some other small benefits that are a little more "crunchy" for lack of a better word. But to me taking skill ranks in Persuade is not worth getting a little extra gold for turning in bounties. To ignore that skill's intended purpose handicaps certain classes like the rogue and the bard. Think of these skills as a way to solve social challenges, in the same way a PvP battle is intended to solve physical challenges. Say you and another player are having a battle of wits, it would be nice to determine a winner. Or say you lie to another player. In an improv class, or a LARP, you could read their face, look for cues, but in D&D (especially a video game version with low poly graphics like NWN) the next best thing would be opposed dice roles.

The best example of all this coming together that I can think of is the show Critical Role. I'm sure most people are familiar with it by now, but if you aren't, its a Twitch-streamed D&D game, that is very roleplay oriented as all the players and the DM are actors/voice actors. They really stress the improv, acting part of D&D. But even in their game, Matt Mercer, the DM will call for Deception, Persuasion, and Insight checks when the game calls for it. And moreover, the players will roll those skills against each other and take the results. They do so because there is a social contract between players to abide by the rules. It doesn't interrupt the flow of their improv, in fact to me it really enhances it.

Now, it sounds like to me that those of you who are opposed to rolls for social interactions, are opposed because they've run into too many players who do NOT abide by that social contract. They abuse the dice, or don't abide by the results, or metagame the situation. So I totally get that, and understand your reluctance. My one last counter argument would be that instead of banning a useful system, you should ban the offending players. If you found a player griefing other systems, such as PvP, you wouldn't get rid of PvP, you would ban the player. I guess that's my argument.

So that's my counter-proposal, thank you for reading it. Like I said, I am ok going with the flow of the server, and I can use the console if necessary. It would just be easier if I had my handy virtual dicebag.