Feylocks

[One Two Three Five]

1. No? Warlocks are at-a-glance a level 30 class and dropping them levels can do the normal things that does, but there's a monobuild (EDR 3 warlock 30) for either side of the class for a reason.

2. Multiclass with what to be powerful? Blackguard only boosts their saves or spreads stats too thin (str 13) if you try and use them for divine shield, Shadowdancer is redundant with infini-invis- and both these options work better on fiendlock anyway.

There's no multiclass that's going to make up for nerfed design while fiendlocks are buffed to be stronger, repeatedly. And there's definitely no multiclass that somehow magically makes feylock spells good, gives them cha to damage and blast effect riders (10d4 +9 extradamage aint bad twice a round), un-nerfs their disable spells, gives them II and even just unnerfed normal haste back...
I could go on.

[TimeAdept]

27/3 blackguard feylock is better than pure feylock. Your stats are not spread very thin at all. You can still manage 22 con 20 cha very easily with most races/

30 fiendlock is the gold standard. There's no reason to deviate.

Fiendlock is still miles better now with the boost that makes negative blast actually respectable damage if non bubblied, and a pure fiendlock can now spam negative blast with ice storm on top of their summons and heal their summon for more than the negligible damage the summon will take from the ice storm.

[Wytchee]

27/3 blackguard feylock is better than pure feylock. Your stats are not spread very thin at all. You can still manage 22 con 20 cha very easily with most races/

30 fiendlock is the gold standard. There's no reason to deviate.

Fiendlock is still miles better now with the boost that makes negative blast actually respectable damage if non bubblied, and a pure fiendlock can now spam negative blast with ice storm on top of their summons and heal their summon for more than the negligible damage the summon will take from the ice storm.

Why does fiendlock not benefit as much from BG? I understand they are easier to gear but I imagine the +8 or +9 to AC would be invaluable since they lack innate access to haste.

[Hinty]

I know it is a mechanical point that is being discussed, but the RPer in me cringes at the very idea of a Feylock/Blackguard...

The idea that a mortal would pledge their soul to an unseelie fae, and then go and pledge themselves to an Outsider of some kind to become a blackguard... Cant see many Evil Outsiders taking a pledge from someone who is already pledged to someone else, especially when that someone else has already taken the mortals soul. At best, the Outsider gets a mortal agent that may at any time refuse to serve because the fae master demands it and has the stronger position of authority, and at the end of it all, no mater what he does, the Outsider can never claim the soul.

And that is without taking into consideration the Faes opinion on sharing their toys....



I struggle to see a multi-class that would work well. The charisma classes are all out. Paladin for obvious reasons, Champion of Torm/Blackguard for RP reasons (divided loyalties) and Sorc because, well, why would you take sorc for short duration low dc spells with very limited casting?
Fighter for a few more feats perhaps, Rogue for the free finesse and the extra skill points? Lets face it Bard gets a criminally low amount of skill points. I cannot help but feel that the small gains wouldn't come even close to making up for the spells and caster levels lost.

I could see an argument for Arcane Archer, but only as a Rogue 10/ Warlock 10/AA 10 in order to get infi cast invis and mage armour. Lets face it, again you would probably be better off putting the warlock levels in ranger, or even sorc/wizard. You are going to get only a small amount of low level spells, you might as well pick a class that can cast cats grace, flame weapon, stoneskin etc.




On the topic of spells, assuming that the mechanics limit the class to bard spells only, there are a few spells I would like to see available.
Spells that would fit if you have room: Amplify, Balagarns Iron Horn, Silence, Clairaudience/Clairvoyance, Gust of Wind, Remove Curse, and War Cry (Wild Hunt anyone?)
Spells that fit the theme and the class sorely needs: Cats Grace and Imp Invis.
Spells that really really should be in because they fit the theme far too well to not: Bestow Curse and Wounding Whispers.

The Feylock spell list represents the faes glamour well, but I don't feel it really reflects their grace, or their connection to nature and natural disasters so much. Not asking for an arcane druid here, but a Gust of Wind, maybe even Ice Storm to represent the winter aspect? And lets face it, if fairies were known for anything in the old stories, far above and beyond their ability to bend peoples minds, it was curses.

[Hinty]

One multiclass does occur to me, in fact it is quite intriguing and might make for a fun character.

Feylock/Totem Druid.

[Wytchee]

You can be a blackguard of your warlock patron, you know. There's also the possibility that a warlock would make pacts with as many entities as possible.

Druid/warlock on the other hand *does* sound contradictory. Making pacts with otherworldly beings is rather counterproductive to the whole "maintaining the balance" thing.

[Hinty]

Blackguard is pact without Outsiders, Fae are not outsiders however. That would be something of a DM ruling situation I suppose, If a DM rules that powerful Fae can do the Blackguard thing then all is good. It is certainly not beyond the bounds of the Lore for powerful Fae to have similar enough powers to be able to grant the same sorts of pacts.

As for Druid/Warlock, for the Abyssal/Infernal Warlocks? Obviously that is a very definite no no. But Fae are intrinsicly linked to the natural world, a Druid that serves a Fae master is not all that different to a Druid that serves a god. A Winter Feylock is quite similar to an Aurilite Druid, and Malar is practically the poster boy of the Wild Hunt. I could see a Druid agreeing to a pact with a Fae so long as the terms of the Pact mean that the Fae master can not compel the druid to damage the Balance.

Short of trying to bring endless summer/winter (and i imagine most fae would rather keep the status quo and keep fighting over that anyway) most Fae will probably be all for maintaining the natural world.

It is a common misconception that Druids are against all things from outside the Prime Material Realm, but they only oppose Outsiders. Creatures from the Outer Realms, because they are literally "not of this realm" it is like the very stuff from which they are made is just wrong and does not belong. That and the Outer Realms represent concepts, like Murder, Justice, Truth, Betrayal. These are things that do not exist in nature.
The Inner Realms are a part of the Prime, they are simply distilled and refined versions, the Plane of Fire is just Fire, like the fire in the Prime, Shadows, just Shadow (although the undead inhabitants are a no no) Earth is Earth, and the Feywild is just an Echo of the Prime except without all those pesky mortals screwing things up with their cities and roads and such.

[Nitro]

There's no "conflict of interest" preventing a warlock from multiclassing into BG, cleric or any other divine class. Being pacted doesn't mean you have to worship the entity you made a pact with, nor that you are its slave (though it could mean either of these things just as well).

A character could simultaneously be a cleric worshipping Cyric, a blackguard empowered by an infernal patron and a warlock sacrificing babies for a fey entity. They may all demand different things at different times, but that doesn't make it impossible.

[Hinty]

Worshiping a god and pacting with a creature is fine.

Pacting with two very different, selfish and power hungry entities that both want the same thing and despise sharing on the other hand...

I see nothing wrong with a character desiring to do that. What I object to is the very idea that any entity powerful enough to offer such a pact would ever make one with someone who has already sold the good stuff to someone else.

[Nitro]

well, you're free to keep whatever headcanon you wish. But two facts remain.

1: This is not P&P, this is NWN/Arelith where the only requirements for BG is
Alignment: any evil

Base attack bonus: +6

Skills: hide 5 ranks

Feats: cleave

And all the flavour text is:

A blackguard epitomizes evil. They are nothing short of a mortal fiend, a black knight with the foulest sort of reputation. Many refer to blackguards as anti-paladins due to their completely evil nature. A blackguard is an evil villain of the first order, equivalent in power to the righteous paladin, but devoted to the powers of darkness.

2: The only class a warlock can't multiclass into is paladin. You can even be a CoT/warlock as the alignments overlap positively. There's no requirement to apply to the DM's for any mechanically available class combination. Pick what classes you want if they are mechanically allowed, and if you don't RP it right then you might get a talking to from the DM's.

[TimeAdept]

27/3 blackguard feylock is better than pure feylock. Your stats are not spread very thin at all. You can still manage 22 con 20 cha very easily with most races/

30 fiendlock is the gold standard. There's no reason to deviate.

Fiendlock is still miles better now with the boost that makes negative blast actually respectable damage if non bubblied, and a pure fiendlock can now spam negative blast with ice storm on top of their summons and heal their summon for more than the negligible damage the summon will take from the ice storm.

Why does fiendlock not benefit as much from BG? I understand they are easier to gear but I imagine the +8 or +9 to AC would be invaluable since they lack innate access to haste.

Fiendlock is all about the pet, and sacrificing 3 levels, weakening the pet drastically, for personal resistance you don't really need isn't ideal. The saves and AC is nice, but the pet needs to be as powerful as possible, and you pull that off by being pure.

Feylock doesn't have any mechanics like that, and its capstone ability, Shadow Shield, is emulated by easily bought scrolls. It also lends itself to a playstyle that wants to stick and move and be as mobile as possible, which means you need to be as absolutely resistance to CC and attacks as possible, so BG double synchronizes there. Having accerss to heavy armor also gives you access to Templar Plate, and Feylock, unlike Fiendlock, actually wants to gear for higher charisma - a Fiendlock is happy to stay at 16, even with the new Eldritch buffs.

Fiendlock doesn't suffer from the loss of Haste too too much, because primarily they're Quickening stat spells, Flare, Grease, and Darkness. Their only combat spells they need to use that they can't innately haste will be their Greater Dispel and high end summosn, and generally it's not too big a deal.

Re: Lore:

Feywild is 4e, throw it in the trash.

BG doesn't require a pact with outsiders, even in PnP, only contact with one. Everything else is extrapolation and resumption. Ergo there is zero conflict. Every PC in Arelith that buys from Korrosek-Was-Unbidden in Andunor fills this requirement. "Peaceful Contact with an Evil Outsider summoned by him or someone else" is the only special requirement.

Not to mention you can BG-serve a god and gods can have Fey servants, such as Auril, Talos, Umberlee, Talona, and Malar.

There are 0 conflicts beyond what you're inventing in your head and attempting to enforce on others.

[Wytchee]

There are 0 conflicts beyond what you're inventing in your head and attempting to enforce on others.

Thanks for the answer, though I assume this was in response to the other guy.

[strong yeet]

I actually think feylocks are pretty strong atm, though the thing about haste only affecting one guy is kind of aggravating and I don't really like how it works.

Anyway what really needs fixed are shitty spells like Dirge, or stuff like Shadow Shield and Summon Shadow just being radial menu junk. I'm pretty sure Summon Shadow still just doesn't even work right, which is pretty lame. That's about it if you ask me.

[One Two Three Five]

Honestly? If you wanted to do the bare minimum fixing to them?

Make dirge do something else, or swap it entirely (A non-mind effecting high-ish level effect would be nice. Shades Fireball?)
Swap summon shadow for literally anything else. Improved Invis.
Make their haste effect self, one other + 1 per 10 levels (up to 4 plus self which is pretty decent but not 'infinite mass haste' level and encourages taking full warlock the same way Mega Summons does for fiendlocks)
Shadow Shield is an easily acquired UMD spell. Something that ties in with their abilities would be a better capstone. (See: Negative Blast Ice Storm Spam on Your Own Summon)

Or, idk, make them seelie fey warlocks so you can be useless against high level mind immune spawns and people with clarity a warlock in the open.