Balance between the classes.

[Dirac]

A bog-standard Arelith 20 fighter/7 weaponmaster/3 rogue at level 30 has, inclusive of feats and base ability scores:

• 18 base fort

• 17 base reflex

• 11 base will.

Add to that 16 ranks of cross-classed spellcraft, +2 int bonus and 6 pieces of +2 spellcraft gear gives you a neat +6 saves vs. spells (30 total spellcraft ranks). Now you're at 24/23/17. Suppose you also runed +1 unisaves onto those 6 items. Now you're at 30/29/23.

Now max out your con to the soft-bonus cap of +12 and you've got a further +6 fortitude. You also have the Strong Soul feat which is +1 vs. death spells.

Now your fort save vs. FoD is +37, which will only fail against a standard level 30 necrowizard's DC 39 Finger of Death on a natural 1.

Note that this is just one example. It's far easier to get saves in this range with other classes, paladin and blackguard being the obvious ones. Is this more effort than your average player is willing to put in to immunize themselves (barring the odd nat 1) against FoD? Sure.

But it's definitely possible, and people are doing it. It's bad design to balance around people who don't understand the mechanics or aren't trying.

The problem with your argument is that the gear set you describe above is not easy to obtain as a high DC Wail of the Banshee. In fact it implies millions of gold and a ton of knowledge of the server, whereas maxing intelligence and getting a 40 DC WotB is as simple as grabbing a cookie wizard and grinding it to level 30 - you get the items for intelligence while grinding.

Yeah, as a veteran NwN player myself, the mechanics and math is easy and it's all there, but I've been a part of many trial runs and I can assure you most of the players aren't rocking gear like you describe above. Almost every time a Wail is dropped so is most of the enemy party. I think the bottom line is that trial runs are proof of what is happening, not some hypothetical world where all fighters are rocking 10 million in gear.

With that said, do I think we should balance around the fact that most folks aren't rocking good gear right now, right after EE? Not in the slightest.

[Martjer]

use death wards shadowshields? The system seems balanced enough to me.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

The problem with your argument is that the gear set you describe above is not easy to obtain as a high DC Wail of the Banshee. In fact it implies millions of gold and a ton of knowledge of the server, whereas maxing intelligence and getting a 40 DC WotB is as simple as grabbing a cookie wizard and grinding it to level 30 - you get the items for intelligence while grinding.

With that said, do I think we should balance around the fact that most folks aren't rocking good gear right now, right after EE? Not in the slightest.

While I agree with your end sentiment, I would point out that the amount of "effort" to grind to thirty varies by person. Some people get there in two years, and some people get there in a month. I haven't taken a single character there in five years because there's almost always something more compelling than the grind when I'm logged in.

This, like the decision not to have saves on your gear, is a personal choice, not a balance issue, IMO.

Arguably, the same amount of XP needs to be gotten either way, but my argument is that in the time it takes you to get to level 30 and the amount of monsters you have to kill to reach that point odds are you have access to the millions of gold needed to gear optimally. I would argue finding gear to buy/someone to make gear for you isn't particularly more difficult than getting to 30 itself. The arcane tower is a literal landmark on the server where I promise you enchanters gather and will happily make your gear for millions of gold (although they have been known to flee from impatient cheapskates).

And I don't think, once you have +1 to two stats on your gear, that it takes particularly intimate knowledge of the game to go "+1 universal saves added to that sounds like a good idea...wait, I can do it 6 times? Sounds good, I needed something to spend this gold on anyway!"

[Tranquility]

I do sort of like the idea that the wizard, who was really really really smart, and spent the first 30 years of his life mastering a basic cantrip by sheer will power and smarts, get a stronger power in some ways than someone who is just strong and can hit stuff hard on the head. Plenty strong people in the world. But fewer Albert Einsteins. Say, didn't that guy help invent the atom bomb? Think he did, pretty hardcore endgame weapon/spell. Something a dude with muscles and no brain could do? Nope.

On a more humoristic perspective. I'd quote Vaarsuvius on the fifth image.. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0764.html
"As if it's OUR fault that they chose a class not capable of doing everything!"

[dominantdrowess]

Except this mage has a Dragon Knight that is -actively- kicking your Snuggybear while you drink pots. >D

Edit: Also -- snuggly bear substitution for the word I used is hilarious.

[Dirac]

Another thing super annoying is that Greater Dispel isn't working as described in the wiki so guess what class has a monopoly on reliable high level dispel? You guessed it... mage.

[flower]

Another thing super annoying is that Greater Dispel isn't working as described in the wiki so guess what class has a monopoly on reliable high level dispel? You guessed it... mage.

Obviously a bug to be fixed.

[Hazard]

Another thing super annoying is that Greater Dispel isn't working as described in the wiki so guess what class has a monopoly on reliable high level dispel? You guessed it... mage.

Shouldn't they?

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Another thing super annoying is that Greater Dispel isn't working as described in the wiki so guess what class has a monopoly on reliable high level dispel? You guessed it... mage.

Shouldn't they?

Careful- implying that a class which spends its whole life dedicated to the mastery of magic (bloodborne or studied) should be better at using that magic to do anything (including dispelling other spells) than another class that isn't about mastering magic is some borderline heretical logic. If you upset someone, we're going to have to purge you with fire.

[Hazard]

Another thing super annoying is that Greater Dispel isn't working as described in the wiki so guess what class has a monopoly on reliable high level dispel? You guessed it... mage.

Shouldn't they?

Careful- implying that a class which spends its whole life dedicated to the mastery of magic (bloodborne or studied) should be better at using that magic to do anything (including dispelling other spells) than another class that isn't about mastering magic is some borderline heretical logic. If you upset someone, we're going to have to purge you with fire.

[flower]

Another thing super annoying is that Greater Dispel isn't working as described in the wiki so guess what class has a monopoly on reliable high level dispel? You guessed it... mage.

Shouldn't they?

Careful- implying that a class which spends its whole life dedicated to the mastery of magic (bloodborne or studied) should be better at using that magic to do anything (including dispelling other spells) than another class that isn't about mastering magic is some borderline heretical logic. If you upset someone, we're going to have to purge you with fire.

So you are saying that people who spent whole life serving their god who has chosen them and grants them divine magic are inferior in dispelling some trivial arcane magic with their godlike powers? Careful.


Greater dispel should be capped at 22 CL if it is not it is a bug and should be fixed.

[Alantar]

As far as I know, these is a list of measures (some of them completely necessary, IMHO) that have already been taken to balance the vanilla wizard/sorcerer:

1. Nerfed Time Stop.
2. Nerfed Greater Sanctuary.
3. Nerfed Bigbies.
4. Nerfed IMGS.
5. Nerfed Shields (Death Armor, Elemental Shield and Acid Sheath do not stack).
6. -pray command (a perfect counter for some of the bigbies, for example).
7. Easy access to UMD casting for almost every build (For example: UMD DC to cast a Time Stop in Arelith, 16?, vanilla nwn DC, 34? Correct me if I'm wrong).

I think that wizards/sorcerers are still excellent in PvE and good enough in PvP, but I also think that they are pretty well balanced in their current state.

[Dirac]

Careful- implying that a class which spends its whole life dedicated to the mastery of magic (bloodborne or studied) should be better at using that magic to do anything (including dispelling other spells) than another class that isn't about mastering magic is some borderline heretical logic. If you upset someone, we're going to have to purge you with fire.

No, I was just mentioning that balance implements aren't working quite as intended and no one has pointed that out yet, for whatever reason.

[Cerk Evermoore]

As far as I know, these is a list of measures (some of them completely necessary, IMHO) that have already been taken to balance the vanilla wizard/sorcerer:

1. Nerfed Time Stop.
2. Nerfed Greater Sanctuary.
3. Nerfed Bigbies.
4. Nerfed IMGS.
5. Nerfed Shields (Death Armor, Elemental Shield and Acid Sheath do not stack).
6. -pray command (a perfect counter for some of the bigbies, for example).
7. Easy access to UMD casting for almost every build (For example: UMD DC to cast a Time Stop in Arelith, 16?, vanilla nwn DC, 34? Correct me if I'm wrong).

I think that wizards/sorcerers are still excellent in PvE and good enough in PvP, but I also think that they are pretty well balanced in their current state.

those just cover the nerfs. the biggest buff to casters is that melee cant just catch you in a time stop and take you fron 100 -> 0 in a round.

Spellcasters also have a ton of utility. ability to spy on enemies, send a messager from anywhere, ability to stop lenses and summon in friends.

I think atm casters have an edge because most situations they can escape and have the ability to harass enemies from the edge of the map over and over until they are caught and killed by someone with higher movement speed.

[Alantar]

A melee can cast Time Stop, KD you (with no damage) and kill you after the Time Stop in one round.

Everybody can use lenses to run from a fight.

Those abilities you mention are great, but each of them requires 3 feats.

[-XXX-]

There's been a lot of sweeping claims made in this thread. I personally do not agree with a great many of those, but am willing to admit that I'm not "pro" enough to understand all the intricacies of PvP on the highest level.
What I can attest to however, is this:

More often than not, when you pit a WM against a wizard, the wizard dies, because:

• The WM can kill the wizard in one round. This doesn't apply the other way around (even the EVO combo cannot one-round a melee build from max hp down to 0)

• Most of the options available to the wizard to stop the melee from reaching them are a hail Mary at best, take an entire round to execute and are easily negated by -prays

• If the WM arrives covered in wards, the wizard just simply doesn't have the tempo necessary to remove all the wards (some of which might be virtually undispellable), CC the WM, then CC them again after -prays, before his head gets chopped off.

• Piloting the WM is VASTLY easier than doing the same with a spellcaster character, and while player skill should not be a factor when determining balance, it plays a role in a very large number of practical IG situations

HOWEVER, most of the above is largely irrelevant, as PvP rarely happens 1 on 1.
Party compositions, various synergies and counters play a huuuge role in team PvP, not mentioning that the balance is rarely fair in such cases (as one side can bring more characters, not all of the present characters are usually max lvl or have optimized gear, etc).


How can we judge this then? I'd suggest determining the "top tier meta" and go from there. To do that, I can present anecdotal evidence at best, so take this with a grain of salt.

I can attempt to subjectively estimate this by builds that I have repeatedly witnessed prevail against overwhelming odds in PvP.
These would be the cookie-cutter weaponmaster, the cookie-cutter palemaster and ...*drumroll* caster cleric.
Now what's interesting is that there is sort of a perfect imbalance between these three builds, because the palemaster's gimmick counters the weaponmaster's gimmick, while the cleric has a very strong game against the palemaster, but most likely will be fighting a downhill battle against the weaponmaster. Simply put:

WM<PM<CC<WM

This is how I'd probably define the current PvP "meta". Feel free to disagree with me as I do admit that it's largely subjective. But still, I'd probably classify builds that are not a part of that as second-grade when it comes to PvP - which doesn't have to necessarily mean that they're bad or weak. They just have other utility that doesn't directly contribute to their ability to efficiently murder other PCs

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Shouldn't they?

Careful- implying that a class which spends its whole life dedicated to the mastery of magic (bloodborne or studied) should be better at using that magic to do anything (including dispelling other spells) than another class that isn't about mastering magic is some borderline heretical logic. If you upset someone, we're going to have to purge you with fire.

So you are saying that people who spent whole life serving their god who has chosen them and grants them divine magic are inferior in dispelling some trivial arcane magic with their godlike powers? Careful.

I am saying exactly that, unless your god is Mystra and you have the magic domain, the goddess of all magic, divine and the trivial arcane, who also controls the Weave, which all forms of magic manifest through except users of the shadow weave... which promptly explodes into nothing if Mystra or the Weave ceases to exist.

On a more mechanical level rather than a lore level, clerics get other things like twice as many hitpoints and the ability to cast in heavy armor and a tower shield. Or healing. Or resurrection. Or all sorts of miracles that aren't focused on the subtle intricacies of undoing a magic spell (except curses and diseases and the like, because healing!)

It seems odd to me to claim that they are somehow maligned by not being as good at dispelling, when the core class itself implies such by not having access to the disjunction spell in the first place, or breaches.

[Dirac]

I am saying exactly that, unless your god is Mystra and you have the magic domain, the goddess of all magic, divine and the trivial arcane, who also controls the Weave, which all forms of magic manifest through except users of the shadow weave... which promptly explodes into nothing if Mystra or the Weave ceases to exist.

On a more mechanical level rather than a lore level, clerics get other things like twice as many hitpoints and the ability to cast in heavy armor and a tower shield. Or healing. Or resurrection. Or all sorts of miracles that aren't focused on the subtle intricacies of undoing a magic spell (except curses and diseases and the like, because healing!)

It seems odd to me to claim that they are somehow maligned by not being as good at dispelling, when the core class itself implies such by not having access to the disjunction spell in the first place, or breaches.

If you read the Arelith wiki and try to understand the intent of the dispel changes, mages will still be kings of dispel.

Even if the devs fix Greater Dispel (GD) to work as described in the wiki, Mordies will still be more powerful. Mordies automatically strips 6 breachable spells (which happen to be some of the cleric's most powerful spells), does dispel checks like GD on all buffs, and also drops SR by 10.

The only thing fixing GD is going to do is make lower level casters somewhat dispellable for clerics, druids and bards. Pure mages or mages with high caster levels will remain untouchable as it should be.

All I was saying is that the only reliable way to dispel buffs currently (due to a bug I guess) is by having Mordies which only mages can get. And that, IMO, is a nasty imbalance in and of itself.

[flower]

Careful- implying that a class which spends its whole life dedicated to the mastery of magic (bloodborne or studied) should be better at using that magic to do anything (including dispelling other spells) than another class that isn't about mastering magic is some borderline heretical logic. If you upset someone, we're going to have to purge you with fire.

So you are saying that people who spent whole life serving their god who has chosen them and grants them divine magic are inferior in dispelling some trivial arcane magic with their godlike powers? Careful.

I am saying exactly that, unless your god is Mystra and you have the magic domain, the goddess of all magic, divine and the trivial arcane, who also controls the Weave, which all forms of magic manifest through except users of the shadow weave... which promptly explodes into nothing if Mystra or the Weave ceases to exist.

On a more mechanical level rather than a lore level, clerics get other things like twice as many hitpoints and the ability to cast in heavy armor and a tower shield. Or healing. Or resurrection. Or all sorts of miracles that aren't focused on the subtle intricacies of undoing a magic spell (except curses and diseases and the like, because healing!)

It seems odd to me to claim that they are somehow maligned by not being as good at dispelling, when the core class itself implies such by not having access to the disjunction spell in the first place, or breaches.

If to stick to lore and original PaP, cleric who is closely following own god, communes often with his god directly. And can be given various other powers than just pre memorised spells. THAT is more than some magical tricster.

[-XXX-]

Are you guys really arguing over whether some made up fantasy god is more powerful than magic?

[Cerk Evermoore]

I feel like cleric dispel is in a good place tbh. Mages do magic stuff, while clerics can heal. One does not need to equal the other in every aspect.

[Richørd]

I feel like Shadowdancer should be less of a PvE tank'n'spank machine but rather give you further bonuses to sneaking than HiPS and +1 Hide per CL.



...



... anyone? No? Alright.

[magistrasa]

If you can cast a spell, the spell should work the way it says it does. Greater Dispel doesn't work the way it says it does, and since that's the best a cleric can do, it's more than reasonable to be a little miffed about it.

I can't believe this is really where the argument has gone.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Careful- implying that a class which spends its whole life dedicated to the mastery of magic (bloodborne or studied) should be better at using that magic to do anything (including dispelling other spells) than another class that isn't about mastering magic is some borderline heretical logic. If you upset someone, we're going to have to purge you with fire.

No, I was just mentioning that balance implements aren't working quite as intended and no one has pointed that out yet, for whatever reason.

This is all well and good, and I apologize for the satirical tone of my post. To be honest it was a little baity reading it in retrospect, and I meant more to deal with the sentiment that clerics should be as good as mages at dispelling that I perceived in some posts than the initial point of the OP, so it's off-topic. Sorry about that.

The dispel line of spells has gone through several updates over the last few years- it's possible that the wiki reflects a previous update and never got updated to its most recent form- a little digging is in order, I think!

Edit: Huh. Nope, that's the current update! Well, that sucks. Bug report it! ...although... hold on. Something isn't mentioned in the wiki.

- Greater Dispel and Mordekainan's Disjunction CL cap formula changed: The cap is now CL 22, with Spell Focus: Abjuration and Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration adding +1 each. Epic Spell Focus: Abjuration adds +2.

Does the bolded part address the thing that isn't working? Cause that's from the update thread.

[Memelord]

So you are saying that people who spent whole life serving their god who has chosen them and grants them divine magic are inferior in dispelling some trivial arcane magic with their godlike powers? Careful.

I am saying exactly that, unless your god is Mystra and you have the magic domain, the goddess of all magic, divine and the trivial arcane, who also controls the Weave, which all forms of magic manifest through except users of the shadow weave... which promptly explodes into nothing if Mystra or the Weave ceases to exist.

On a more mechanical level rather than a lore level, clerics get other things like twice as many hitpoints and the ability to cast in heavy armor and a tower shield. Or healing. Or resurrection. Or all sorts of miracles that aren't focused on the subtle intricacies of undoing a magic spell (except curses and diseases and the like, because healing!)

It seems odd to me to claim that they are somehow maligned by not being as good at dispelling, when the core class itself implies such by not having access to the disjunction spell in the first place, or breaches.

If to stick to lore and original PaP, cleric who is closely following own god, communes often with his god directly. And can be given various other powers than just pre memorised spells. THAT is more than some magical tricster.

Canonically, clerics aren't "gifted" their powers from the gods. The vast majority of the work involved in divine spellcasting is on the cleric themselves - it's a matter of sheer willpower, practice, and skill at casting spells. Much like a wizard's own spellcasting is. This is why a cleric who drops out of their god's faith doesn't have to start over at Cleric Level 1 if they pick up a new god - because the gods are just opening the magical tap, so to speak. The ability to draw that much magic is fully on the cleric.