Item Sinks: Should we have more of them?

[Rooshi49]

Item sinks. Like a gold sink, but for items!

Example: Take two iron ingots and put them in some magical device and have them have a percentage chance of spitting out a different ingot of a higher value.

This is SUCH an action-RPG type of thing to do, but action RPG's such as Path of Exile have really good economic systems imho. So taking a page out of their book isn't a horrific idea.

I think an idea like this would be interesting implemented in Arelith. It would take items like Piker's rings and other pieces of equipment that don't see much use and give them some purpose. To throw them into a grinder and see what happens. it would sort of be like enchanting with higher value equipment and would be there to incentivize removing those items in the game outside of the methods that already exist like 5%'ing, vendoring, and rolling a character.

I admit I throw this idea out there because I like to gamble away precious items. I am also a strong believer that sinks are very healthy for a virtual economy. Because as items and gold are practically being printed, there needs to be ways for those items to be removed from circulation.

What do you all think public? Does a system like this seem appealing to Arelith?

[Durvayas]

I'd like to see the ability to strip away specific enchantments from items so that I can throw them in a basin again.

Lets be honest, a LOT of chest loot is utter trash. There are things where it has a neat spell effect on it, but then two or three other properties that make it useless to me.

I'd like the ability to modify chest-loot to better suit my build, rather than be stuck with the bog standard
+1STR
+1CON
+1unisave
+2 discipline
+2 spellcraft
standard issue item.

So this item has fireball 1/day on it? Neat!... oh... but it also has concentration and bluff. I can't modify it, because the enchanting value is far too high, so it goes right to a vendor for 250gp.

BUT... I'd happily gamble it in the gold sink that is an enchanting basin, if that meant I could strip that concentration and bluff.

So I'd be 100% up for a system that lets me put something in a basin, and risk blowing it up, for a chance at removing properties to make it able to be modified. Would this mean successive enchantings that mean repeated risks of blowing it up? Sure. That might make it more of a gold sink than anything else, which is still fine, but It would add more versatility to equipment outside the standard meta.

[magistrasa]

Does this idea sound appealing? Um. Not... really...

Or at least, not in the way you're describing. Especially because I feel like it already exists in a lot of different ways on the server. Crafting turns things into other things, though it doesn't seem like that's what you're trying to describe. Materials that are useless to most people can be sold to settlements in exchange for gold, but I suspect the argument there is that then we need more gold sinks. The closest system to what you probably want are skull coins, since skull coins are a loot box generator now.

I hope you realize though that despite how appealing it might seem on paper to fix inflation by tossing items into the abyss, you have no idea how god awful a path you are asking the devs to take us down. Because you have never played a Korean MMO. There's a frequently recurring system of imbalance there called "RNG" - and while you might THINK since it's random, it's fair and equal to everyone. But it's not. Gold sinks don't mean anything to people who make a lot of gold, but they're crippling to people who don't make enough to handle the cost. Item sinks don't mean anything with enough time and brain numbness to spend hours collecting them, but they're awful for people who need to spend a ton of time collecting things for a chance at improving their current standing.

"But if the system is optional, it should be fine!" you might say, but you don't understand that with the calculations above, it's only really optional to the people with a lot of money/time. It's not an option for those without. Maybe it's not a requirement for anyone, but it's only of real benefit to a select few. The select few who can roll that die a hundred times a week, instead of the ones who can roll it maybe ten times.

So if this system DID exist, the only acceptable way to go about it would be to make it so any items you get from it allow no mechanical benefit or improvement to a character. And that's probably not what you want either. So really, you don't want any of this. And neither does anyone else.

[Rooshi49]

Does this idea sound appealing? Um. Not... really...

Or at least, not in the way you're describing. Especially because I feel like it already exists in a lot of different ways on the server. Crafting turns things into other things, though it doesn't seem like that's what you're trying to describe. Materials that are useless to most people can be sold to settlements in exchange for gold, but I suspect the argument there is that then we need more gold sinks. The closest system to what you probably want are skull coins, since skull coins are a loot box generator now.

I hope you realize though that despite how appealing it might seem on paper to fix inflation by tossing items into the abyss, you have no idea how god awful a path you are asking the devs to take us down. Because you have never played a Korean MMO. There's a frequently recurring system of imbalance there called "RNG" - and while you might THINK since it's random, it's fair and equal to everyone. But it's not. Gold sinks don't mean anything to people who make a lot of gold, but they're crippling to people who don't make enough to handle the cost. Item sinks don't mean anything with enough time and brain numbness to spend hours collecting them, but they're awful for people who need to spend a ton of time collecting things for a chance at improving their current standing.

"But if the system is optional, it should be fine!" you might say, but you don't understand that with the calculations above, it's only really optional to the people with a lot of money/time. It's not an option for those without. Maybe it's not a requirement for anyone, but it's only of real benefit to a select few. The select few who can roll that die a hundred times a week, instead of the ones who can roll it maybe ten times.

So if this system DID exist, the only acceptable way to go about it would be to make it so any items you get from it allow no mechanical benefit or improvement to a character. And that's probably not what you want either. So really, you don't want any of this. And neither does anyone else.

Thanks for chiming in here. But you are making an aweful lot of assumptions here. You're saying I don't understand this or understand that and that if I don't agree with you I'm basically a moron. Thanks. I really appreciate these kinds of posts. You're also somehow speaking on behalf of everything. Which . . . is not possible. I don't see how any of what I said would be non-optional.

How is a gold sink or item sink bad? Can you explain?
Also how is RNG not balanced for everyone?
How is RNG not already in this game . . ?
You say I don't understand your calculations above . . What calculations?
Also, for your last paragraph. With hacks potentially being implemented, throwing away IG items and gold to get cosmetics would actually be an interesting system.

[The Incredulous Bulk]

I'd like to see the ability to strip away specific enchantments from items so that I can throw them in a basin again.

I've had the same thought. I'm not saying this should be extremely easy to do, but I do think the server would be more enjoyable if disenchanting items were possible. The current system requires (and therefore encourages) lots of mind-numbing grinding if you want to get good runic items.

[magistrasa]

Really I was using "you" in the general sense (and will continue doing so) but alright, I'll try and use more gentle wording. Sorry that it ruffled your feathers, Roshi.

Let's say you can give an NPC something worth 1000 gold. There's a 10% chance you can turn that 1000 gold into 100,000 gold. There's a 20% chance that you turn that 1000 gold into 10,000 gold. There's a 30% chance you turn that 1000 gold into a different item that's also worth 1000 gold. There's a 40% chance you turn that 1000 gold item into worthless trash.

Let's say Player A spends an average of, idk, 40 hours a week on Arelith, and has like. 4 million gold. Let's say Player B spends 10 hours on Arelith a week, and only has around 200k.

(Keep in mind that the numbers themselves don't matter, the point is in the premise the numbers are being used to convey.)

Player B is putting a lot more on the line playing that gambling game than player A, because player A has the time and resources to spare, and player B does not.

Imagine if it wasn't gold. Imagine if it were high-end items that you could ONLY get from this gambling, or things like Adamantite or runecrafting items that people grind for AGES for. Eliminate the grind by pouring money into the game! Sounds kind of like a microtransaction, don't it? In theory, it would benefit the people who don't have time to grind, but in reality, it just makes the rich richer. Especially if the odds were even more stacked against the people who didn't have a lot to bet with in the first place.

The calculations I'm referring to is the fact that if you have more time to grind for things to spin that wheel, or more money than you know what to do with and don't mind the risk of loss compared to the reward, this system benefits you, not the players with less time or money. The more times you spin that wheel, the more chances you have to hit that big money space.

I'm not opposed to gold sinks, really. But I don't think loot boxes are the way to go. Especially not if they offer mechanical benefit over others. I feel like there's a difference between going out and working for what you find out in the world, and putting items or gold into a slot machine and getting handed stuff just for having more time and gold than other people. It's really not a "luck" game - it's "who's willing to burn the most resources to get this one thing." The game already benefits the people who have more time by virtue of those people playing and progressing more often than other people. At least it's straightforward and honest about that fact at the moment. Progression is also honest and straightforward. When you craft an item, you know what you're putting in and you know what you're getting out. When you go to level up, you know every point of experience gets you closer to the goal. When you enchant an item, you know what the chances are of success, and there are even clearly defined ways to improve those chances of success. Gambling minigames aren't honest at all. They're based on a lie that everyone's equal and luck can be on anyone's side, but the reality is they're on the side of the already rich. The more you spin, the more you win. But when you can't afford to lose, it's nothing but a trap.

[Rooshi49]

Really I was using "you" in the general sense (and will continue doing so) but alright, I'll try and use more gentle wording. Sorry that it ruffled your feathers, Roshi.

Let's say you can give an NPC something worth 1000 gold. There's a 10% chance you can turn that 1000 gold into 100,000 gold. There's a 20% chance that you turn that 1000 gold into 10,000 gold. There's a 30% chance you turn that 1000 gold into a different item that's also worth 1000 gold. There's a 40% chance you turn that 1000 gold item into worthless trash.

Let's say Player A spends an average of, idk, 40 hours a week on Arelith, and has like. 4 million gold. Let's say Player B spends 10 hours on Arelith a week, and only has around 200k.

(Keep in mind that the numbers themselves don't matter, the point is in the premise the numbers are being used to convey.)

Player B is putting a lot more on the line playing that gambling game than player A, because player A has the time and resources to spare, and player B does not.

Imagine if it wasn't gold. Imagine if it were high-end items that you could ONLY get from this gambling, or things like Adamantite or runecrafting items that people grind for AGES for. Eliminate the grind by pouring money into the game! Sounds kind of like a microtransaction, don't it? In theory, it would benefit the people who don't have time to grind, but in reality, it just makes the rich richer. Especially if the odds were even more stacked against the people who didn't have a lot to bet with in the first place.

The calculations I'm referring to is the fact that if you have more time to grind for things to spin that wheel, or more money than you know what to do with and don't mind the risk of loss compared to the reward, this system benefits you, not the players with less time or money. The more times you spin that wheel, the more chances you have to hit that big money space.

I'm not opposed to gold sinks, really. But I don't think loot boxes are the way to go. Especially not if they offer mechanical benefit over others. I feel like there's a difference between going out and working for what you find out in the world, and putting items or gold into a slot machine and getting handed stuff just for having more time and gold than other people. It's really not a "luck" game - it's "who's willing to burn the most resources to get this one thing." The game already benefits the people who have more time by virtue of those people playing and progressing more often than other people. At least it's straightforward and honest about that fact at the moment. Progression is also honest and straightforward. When you craft an item, you know what you're putting in and you know what you're getting out. When you go to level up, you know every point of experience gets you closer to the goal. When you enchant an item, you know what the chances are of success, and there are even clearly defined ways to improve those chances of success. Gambling minigames aren't honest at all. They're based on a lie that everyone's equal and luck can be on anyone's side, but the reality is they're on the side of the already rich. The more you spin, the more you win. But when you can't afford to lose, it's nothing but a trap.

Dude the entire premise of your argument is that people who play the game make more money than those who don't play the game? Isn't that already true? You even said it in your post that it IS true, but its more honest. If you're really going to argue that RNG favors those that can try multiple attempts . . . then you're twisting words and facts until they fit your purpose.

RNG doesn't favor anyone. Its not some conspiracy. Its not some false pretense. Its not some rigged system. Its a mathematical truth that if you attempt more times the more you'll succeed. It does not however increase your chance of success at ALL.

Also, its not a loot box system. That would be like saying enchanting is a loot box system. You're trying to argue for making Arelith's economy a socialist economy where no matter how much you play you'll always get the same amount of stuff. If that were the case I would log on and grind for 5 seconds and be on par with the richest of the rich.

THAT is not fun.

Also, an item sink doesn't have to be gambling. It can be any myriad of systems implemented. You've just latched onto some idea that you have for what you think it is and are arguing against the existence of ALL systems of any bit of similarity by trying to argue that one system doesn't work.

I may be repeating myself at this point, but I want to drive this point home.

Gambling minigames aren't honest at all. They're based on a lie that everyone's equal and luck can be on anyone's side, but the reality is they're on the side of the already rich. The more you spin, the more you win. But when you can't afford to lose, it's nothing but a trap.

Everyone is equal in a gambling minigame . . its all a percentage chance of winning. Enchanting is also a gambling minigame. I don't see how RNG is evil. RNG is the basis of the ENTIRETY of both NWN and DnD.

[magistrasa]

"The more you play, the more you win." If you roll the die 100 times, you're gonna win more often than if you roll 10 times. That's just statistics. It's not JUST that playing more means having more, it's that the rich would only get richer, without changing anything about how the game is actually played. It's not going to equalize the economy, it's going to widen the gap between people with more time and money, and the people with less. The rest of the RNG in the game, like I said, is clearly defined. It can also be augmented and worked around to be put in your favor. Gambling is gambling. There's no brains or flexibility about it. There's no game to it either.

And yeah, I'm focusing mostly on the gambling idea you had in your original post, because that's what I have the strongest opinion on, and I'm genuinely concerned by the fact that you and other people I've seen in the past seem to be encouraging it. This is a feedback thread, dude, relax. My feedback is that gambling minigames are bad. Don't take it as a personal attack because it's really not.

Exchanging items or gold for random cosmetics is fun, though, I do agree with that.

[Nitro]

No thank you. I'd prefer not to have more reasons for people to price-hike crappy/regular items because they know rich people will buy them in bulk for mass gambling. Durvayas idea seems considerably more interesting and fun.

[Rooshi49]

I'm not taking it personally. (though you really should stop using "you", I know what you mean now, but "you" can be confusing.)

Can we move away from the idea that I set forth and everyone is latching onto? I was giving ONE example. There are plenty of other ways item sinks can exist.

For instance: Putting in extra resources of a type for a percentage chance that you make two items at once in crafting. Like say you want to make a steel full plate and you put in twenty ingots of steel in for an increased chance that you'll make two or potentially three steel full plates at once.

Durvayas did set forth another idea, but thats not really an item sink at all. Its a cool idea, sure. But it has only a side effect that it may or may not cause more items to be deleted from circulation.

Unless ofcourse you give it a percentage chance that when you disenchant something it falls apart and gets destroyed. That would be an item sink.

[magistrasa]

Maybe running with the breakdown idea a step further? Turning old gear into their base materials, or into scraps. Like if I was a wizard who wanted to upgrade from their Apprentice Staff, maybe I'd throw it in some kind of deconstruction machine and have a chance of getting anywhere from some hardwood to an alchemistic catalyst to whatever else it's made out of. Lootable pieces of enchanted jewelry might pop out gems or gem dust or something. Armor pops out ingots or scrap metal. Or maybe nothing comes out at all. In theory the only people using this deconstruction machine are people who didn't want this old gear to begin with, so I guess it wouldn't matter too much to them if nothing came out. Just means they didn't get the couple hundred gold from throwing it at a vendor.

Maybe it's not so much an "item sink" as it is a "recycle bin" though.

[Durvayas]

Unless ofcourse you give it a percentage chance that when you disenchant something it falls apart and gets destroyed. That would be an item sink.

I thought in my post I made it clear that the percentile failure to disenchant meant the item went poof, but in case I phrased it poorly, know that I was indeed suggesting that, on failure, the item goes boom.

[Cerk Evermoore]

I'd like to see more stepping stone armor pieces that can be made exceptional with proper runes. The duelist armor pieces would be a fine example of the type of items I am talking about.