Neutral Shops in the Hub: [All the advantages, none of the weaknesses]

[BegoneThoth]

As long as gold isn't going into a black hole and the coin is accounted for and actively employed, that should be better.

[Dagonlives]

Wow, a dev responded. That sound great ActionRoleplay. One of the biggest frustrations of playing an Andunorian Government offical is frankly that the districts aren't that important. The hub made all the money along with the Treadstone port. Having those locations taxed and split between the two districts -heavily incentivizes- participation in them by likely quintupling their money.

It means salaries can be paid out and increased competition for rulership. Which is the whole point and amazing rather then the money just going into a void.

Thank you hub merchants for subsidizing my fun.

Awesome.

[TimeAdept]

Salaries and dues haven't worked for a year, so that's an irrelevant argument.

If merchants wanted to 'subsidize your fun', maybe you should have tried attracting them to the actual settlement.

The Hub now has the distinct punishment of being the only non settlement shops in the entire server that eat a 10% tax that can't be reduced by any means or any measure. It's absurd. The fact that it's going to some nebulous Hubmaster that may or may not benefit Districts that hub merchants are often trying to avoid explicitly for politics reasons, are now forced to hand money over to them for daring to own a shop in the Hub, instead of the Treadstone or the Boreal, or the Tavern in West Wheel, or the Spider's Web. Straight Hub punishment for 0 reason.

Is Sibayad taxed? The League better be taking their cut.
Is Sencliff taxed? You'd better bet the pirates would be taking their doubloons.
Crow's Nest? Those docks don't maintain themselves.
Mage tower? Should go to the Guildhouse owner, clearly. 10%. No changing it. Or just to the void.

Absolutely unfair treatment. Settlements couldn't attract decent merchants so they got the server changed to get money handed over to them no matter what.

[TimeAdept]

It does make sense that the hubmaster wants his share of the gold flowing through the hub. And let's not pretend 10% is a crippling tax for some of the most lucratively positioned shops on the server. If a shop in the hub doesn't have trash goods and the prices aren't terrible, it's going to shift a lot of wares based on its convenient location alone.

10% is absolutely crippling. I run my items on extremely slim margins to benefit new players who can't pay inflated, poor pricing like 5k for a steel helm or 8k for a steel full plate or 7k for a steel scimitar. The Hubmaster now makes more profit than I do off my items. I now also have to completely rework my consignment agreements and direct-buy agreements, as I was using it to help keept he store stocked and make money on the side, and now have to cut my margins even thinner.

My shop also sells extremely expensive items, and 10% can mean I'm losing upwards of 30,000 gold to 50,000 gold per sale. When you figure in the cost of rune materials and adamantine and labor and time to make these items, this represents a not-insignificant loss, especially when these prices, ar,e again, rock bottom on the entire server, or merchandise literally not sold anywhere else in the server.

I have to either hike my prices, or pay my labor less, to make up the difference and subsidize districts that are political enemies, with no choice or recourse in the matter. I guess I could just put up a sign and buy Treadstone property, right up until that gets taxed too, I guess.

[Durvayas]

If you're selling your goods at cost, you were never going to make any real profit off of them anyways, a price hike hardly changes that. And frankly, if you're selling things for up to half a million gp, you'll have to forgive my not being overly sympathetic to your tax woes. If people are burning that much gold on your items to begin with, you may as well raise your prices because beyond a certain point, cost is immaterial. Anyone grinding hard enough to spend 500k on an item won't bat an eyelash at having to spend 550k.

[TimeAdept]

It's not at cost, but low enough to beat every other merchant while turning a profit. A price hike changes everything about that when you're also cutting in other merchants and working with employees who are helping make the mass amount of raw materials you go through to create dozens of perm essences, hundreds of temp essences and spell components, and dozens of wands.

It's not my fault no one in the server seems to know how to run a price war or run a store when faced with competition - including competition in the Hub itself, I'm not even talking about elsewhere.

Once again, I'm mostly pissed at how this is flagrantly just a punishment for the Hub, when no other non-settlement shop in relevant areas of the server (Skal is not relevant by design, sorry.) does.

[Skibbles]

Maybe think of it less like a punishment and more like a surcharge for one of the best mercantile locations in arelith? The daily foot traffic in the hub is outrageous. That anyone in power would let it go untaxed seems almost impossible.

[dominantdrowess]

Basically, this allows the Devil's Table and/or Sharps to reduce taxation to 9% and allows somewhat equal competition with the 10% tax in the hub... so that while Devil's Table and Sharps have the possibility of eviction... they are CAPABLE of being -more- profitable than the trade hub... allowing them to compete with the free-advertisement and foot-traffic of the trade hub.

People COMPLAINING about -finally- having fair taxation on their Neutral Shops... are not thinking about the other merchants who have been dealing with fair taxation the entire time while trying to be competitive with untaxed shops, selling wares at 10% cheaper than their own shops, and MANY neutral, untaxed shops literally walk around the city, view the taxed shops and then undercut their competitors by the taxed amount.

I'm one of them who do this. The reason I do this, even as someone concerned about The health of The Devil's Economy is simple:
The Devil's Table Government is one of Saslae's expenses. She subsidizes it directly out of her own accounts. So does Matron Xvil'kor. So does Vance Gravelle, with The Sharps instead of The Table.

While I would -prefer- the hub tax to eventually be distributed to the economic needs of running the districts (so we can afford to pay wages out to soldiers, and the like such as The Cordor Guard) and that this kind of affiliation and stability is -healthy- in Andunor rather than requiring faction leaders to be grindaholics that are online 12 hours a day... Characters who spend all their time maintaining the city ... the fixtures that get broken (constantly, and often incidentally through RP even), defending players that get attacked, and so-on deserve to get paid for their time, and effort -- the Dustwrought producing, maintaining and repairing all the flags in the city is an expensive affair due to the printer ink that they do without reward for instance.

Regardless of who is for, or opposes them: A lot of these people are champion RPers maintaining our common environment, and I'd like to see these and other people being -able- to be compensated by the GDP of Andunor.

The ONLY reason that I address this on the forums ... is because if you walk up to people and ask to tax their neutral shops: They're going to tell you to get bent and the hub-master's association has literally NEVER made an appearance in Saslae's 10 - 15 IC years in Andunor.

I think -everyone- can agree that the neutral shops should not be subject to eviction, regardless of where the taxes go -- given the tumulous and violent nature of politics in Andunor: Having those as a safe-haven AGAINST violent upheaval I feel is good thing for stability in Andunor... though I believe that ALL the neutral shops in Andunor should be taxed equally into Andunor's government... regardless of if that money is just going to 'disappear' or be split between the districts -- to keep any shop from having a profit-margin advantage beyond desirable positioning that -does- actively hurt sales in the districts even when they -are- as effectively priced as they can be with taxation.

[BegoneThoth]

All the taxes did was make hub stores 10% more expensive.

If you think merchants are going to eat that 10% you are out of your mind. Reverse trickle down.

[dominantdrowess]

Nobody expects them to eat it. But it does put them on closer to even footing with the districts and the less fortunate merchants by positioning rather than cementing a monopoly on quality prices on top of high traffic positioning.

[TimeAdept]

The Hub now has the distinct punishment of being the only non settlement shops in the entire server that eat a 10% tax that can't be reduced by any means or any measure. It's absurd. The fact that it's going to some nebulous Hubmaster that may or may not benefit Districts that hub merchants are often trying to avoid explicitly for politics reasons, are now forced to hand money over to them for daring to own a shop in the Hub, instead of the Treadstone or the Boreal, or the Tavern in West Wheel, or the Spider's Web. Straight Hub punishment for 0 reason.

Is Sibayad taxed? The League better be taking their cut.
Is Sencliff taxed? You'd better bet the pirates would be taking their doubloons.
Crow's Nest? Those docks don't maintain themselves.
Mage tower? Should go to the Guildhouse owner, clearly. 10%. No changing it. Or just to the void.

Treadstone?
Port?
Boreal?
Wheels/Taverns?
Surface Castles? (May go to ruling settlement. Not sure.)
Orc Camp?
Bendir Farm?
Greyhammer? (May actually go to Bendir. Not sure)
Ranger Outpost?
Zurkhwood Grove?

All non-settlement shops that can't be evicted and don't pay taxes. It still exists, in Andunor, even. At least apply your bad decisions fairly across the server, instead of, like I said, blatantly punishing the Hub.

[dominantdrowess]

Probably. Yeah, I think all those places are probably justified in costing you a percentage of your profits just for maintaining and upkeeping a shop that sells things and protects the stuff you put up for sale while you aren't there.

[BegoneThoth]

Nobody expects them to eat it. But it does put them on closer to even footing with the districts and the less fortunate merchants by positioning rather than cementing a monopoly on quality prices on top of high traffic positioning.

All that happened here was goods in one location becoming 10% more expensive.

With that now done what was your phase two? What was to come now that would work to improve the sharps and DT as your OP suggested? Now that the hub 'advantage' is gone?

[Blood on my Lips]

Salaries and dues haven't worked for a year, so that's an irrelevant argument.

If merchants wanted to 'subsidize your fun', maybe you should have tried attracting them to the actual settlement.

The Hub now has the distinct punishment of being the only non settlement shops in the entire server that eat a 10% tax that can't be reduced by any means or any measure. It's absurd. The fact that it's going to some nebulous Hubmaster that may or may not benefit Districts that hub merchants are often trying to avoid explicitly for politics reasons, are now forced to hand money over to them for daring to own a shop in the Hub, instead of the Treadstone or the Boreal, or the Tavern in West Wheel, or the Spider's Web. Straight Hub punishment for 0 reason.

Is Sibayad taxed? The League better be taking their cut.
Is Sencliff taxed? You'd better bet the pirates would be taking their doubloons.
Crow's Nest? Those docks don't maintain themselves.
Mage tower? Should go to the Guildhouse owner, clearly. 10%. No changing it. Or just to the void.

Absolutely unfair treatment. Settlements couldn't attract decent merchants so they got the server changed to get money handed over to them no matter what.

I agree with all of this EXCEPT for the part about shop taxes in the Arcane Tower going to the guildhouse owner. It encourages property hording and it's not an opportunity offered with other properties. I do not want to see any collected taxes going to a player. I would rather see that money go into the void than to a player.

[dominantdrowess]

This is why I was suggesting that the taxation of a neutral shop should go to whatever place a person is a voting citizen of. A Cordorian Merchant should pay taxes on their profit to Cordor, etc.

Two absolutes: Death and Taxes.

If you're not a member of a settlement, paying for the protection of that settlement, a 10% flat tax into the void can represent the poor sap hawking and protecting your wares while you're not there.

[BegoneThoth]

That isn't true for a huge swath of the server.

All that was accomplished here was more expensive hub shops.

[dominantdrowess]

That isn't true for a huge swath of the server.

All that was accomplished here was more expensive hub shops.

Hey, I already said I agree they all need to be taxed fairly. At least we now have dev eyes on the fact that the VISIBLY LISTED 10% tax on all neutral shops isn't functioning properly.

[TimeAdept]

The hub is a test for now. The money won't go wasted, they'll go to the city of Andunor and pile up. I'm looking into being able to split revenue of that to the two districts.

I want the Andunor wealth to actually mean something as allowing more dynamic features. If the city is wealthy perhaps goods sold by NPC merchants can go down a little. This also opens up some features for the future backgrounds we have in store like The Merchant one to allow for lower taxes or further income for player-owned shops.

I can turn it off by now (though no more gold to Andunor) just need confirmation PC sold wares in the Hub are taxed since this change.

Taxes are in.

[Cerk Evermoore]

Folks complaining about having to pay taxes or pay too much at the most profitable high traffic shops on the server is pretty funny tbh. Can folks actually focus on what is fair instead of their in game interests? Nothing is fair about paying 0% taxes on your shop in the middle of the city.

[flower]

When i look at the prices in Ud, i rather seriously consider sneaking around surface with my drow and shopping there.

And these 10% + or - are not going to change that...

[Freyason]

Brogendenstein laughs at your puny taxes, capitalist swines

[TimeAdept]

Folks complaining about having to pay taxes or pay too much at the most profitable high traffic shops on the server is pretty funny tbh. Can folks actually focus on what is fair instead of their in game interests? Nothing is fair about paying 0% taxes on your shop in the middle of the city.

Great, I expect Sencliff, Sibayad and every other non settlement shop to also be taxed at 10% next update, in the name of fairness, otherwise surface non settlement shops have an unfair advantage over Underdark non settlement shops.

It's not fair, as the Hub just can't compete with other non settlement shops that are no longer taxed. Sencliff is a natural pirate hub, and 10% shouldn't affect your traffic or sales at all.

[Drexyl N~drass]

I've had shops in the Devils Table that did well, and Shops in the Port, and Hub as well. Any shop actually worth the visit will do well regardless of location so long as it's not stuffed with junk you'll find on critters, AKA a thrift shop. A lot of this thread kinda of comes off as "Settlement powers script can't be used to force out rp in the traditional fashion." Make the shops good and the customers will come. Shops have never been the reason for Andunors instability..

[Cerk Evermoore]

Folks complaining about having to pay taxes or pay too much at the most profitable high traffic shops on the server is pretty funny tbh. Can folks actually focus on what is fair instead of their in game interests? Nothing is fair about paying 0% taxes on your shop in the middle of the city.

Great, I expect Sencliff, Sibayad and every other non settlement shop to also be taxed at 10% next update, in the name of fairness, otherwise surface non settlement shops have an unfair advantage over Underdark non settlement shops.

It's not fair, as the Hub just can't compete with other non settlement shops that are no longer taxed. Sencliff is a natural pirate hub, and 10% shouldn't affect your traffic or sales at all.

Yeah I don't even care if I get taxed if that's the way the server is designed to function. When I said what I said I included myself obviously because I am not on the forum arguing for things that obviously favor myself. The Hub main shops can generate millions of gold. If you've got it so bad now, feel free to sell one of those main hub shops and move your shop to the Banite Temple to avoid taxes. Nobody is forcing you to hold onto those centre hub shops.

[dominantdrowess]

@TimeAdept / @Cerk

I think you're kind of missing the point.

Quote:
"Great, I expect Sencliff, Sibayad and every other non settlement shop to also be taxed at 10% next update, in the name of fairness, otherwise surface non settlement shops have an unfair advantage over Underdark non settlement shops."

This is actually entirely missing the point, and making these attacks because people brought up some issues, and one dev happened to notice and believe that an issue was worth investigating doesn't seem cool to me.

Let's keep this thread from turning into threats and 'I expect': Which I feel is a lockable offense. Dev's (and staff) move in their own time. Your tone comes off as very demanding to me, and I'd like yours (and anyone's concerns, numbers, experiences, records, charts) in this thread to be able to be expressed.

I don't want what I feel has been a constructive thread for myself, for you and for others to express their economic experiences in Arelith to get locked because some people don't like the opinions expressed in it, which is a form of censure I've seen often on these threads and I'd like to avoid that given how valid some of the concerns (on multiple fronts) I believe many of the comments in this thread have been.