Wild Mage Changes

[RedGiant]

This could have been a question, but will inevitably result in feed back, so, I will just start here.

What is the idea behind the 'chaos' changes?

My personal thought was that Wild Mage was a fairly stable class, balanced between fantastic negatives and positives which start out pretty heinous...but...in the end game...become borderline manageable (without the danger ever really going away).

Chaos was a distinct, defensive power that was colorful, occasionally useful, and far from OP. We have replaced it with yet more 'surginess'.

Why?

Wizards don't have tons of spells. I suppose this change will let Wild Mages 'go crazy with the cheese-whiz' for a bit longer, but this will inevitably make them even more a pariah class. Additional 'surginess' was already possible through FOIG, and this just pushes them more toward the 'chaos elemental' type mentioned at the same FOIG.

Thus, really struggling with afore-mentioned 'why'?

[Hazard]

I really loved(love) wild mage as it is. The loss of the old -chaos makes me a bit sad, because even though I never really used it, it felt pretty awesome to trigger it and walk through a swarm of goblins or something, just devastating them.

The new -chaos thing, I honestly don't think I'll ever use outside of being silly.

It's really not enough for me to complain about, but I thought I'd put my 5c in too.

[Sockss]

The surges are very manageable if you're cross classed, so you are essentially trading some survivability for offense. It's weighted in favour of offense.

If you're pure it's a little different. But you can be spectacularly good or bad, depending on your luck - which after all should be the defining feature of the class.

[Disciprine Come From Within]

It's funny. I made a feedback thread some months ago actually hoping for something like this. The random chaos is what makes the class stand out. I'll stand by some of what I said back then about most of the surges not being very party friendly though and if you were going to shoot for the insane 100% surge all the time chaos, it'll only be with offensive magic.

[Orian_666]

I'm kinda 50/50 on the change.

As much as i'll miss the chaos shield, rarely used but certainly useful when I did, I feel that this changes is more reflective of what a wild mage should be capable of.

In saying that I would like to see it altered somewhat.
First, it kinda makes -surge pointless to an extent, apart from the spell refresh from -surge which is nice but ultimately now the only point of using it, you can now just -chaos and spam some surges until you use up your whole Spellbook (this is mainly relevant only at level 28+ of course).
Second, we've lost a mechanically advantageous, but not at all broken, mechanic for something that, let's be honest, will mostly only ever really be used for some silly RP purposes and not used in actual fights. Unless you know for a fact you're going to lose in which case it doesn't really matter anyway and it's likely worth the risk.
I'm not saying a new RP tool is a bad thing, but it being traded for something that was useful for both RP and mechanically useful is a bit of a sting.

The change i'd like to see made to it would be some sort of swing toward "advantageous" surges being more common based on a few factors.
1. The higher the % (or wild mage level instead, maybe) slightly increases the chance of a positive surge, this means the deeper you go into the class the slightly more "control" you have over it.
2. Some sort of skill contribution to increase the chances of a positive surge even further. Such as Concentration and/or Spellcraft. I know it's meant to be random, and surges are chaotic, but even a tiny level of "control" is clearly possible (as evidenced by -fate and what [FOIG obvious NPC] can do if you're ever dumb enough to attack him), so I think the stronger, more powerful, and more capable, a Wild Mage is should be reflected a bit by this change.
3. Remove certain surges from being a possibility when using -chaos to balance this shift toward a higher chance for a positive surges. Can't really think off the top of my head what could be removed to make a change like this more balanced, but i'm fairly confident a couple could be turned off when using -chaos because they're probably a bit too OP if you had a decent chance to only surge positive ones. It's something the team would obviously need to consider, I think. EDIT: Or maybe not turn them off, I guess... considering the offensive positive ones can still be cast on yourself while using buffs, so that is where the balance could come from... maybe...

I know the likelihood of this happening is pretty slim, and I do like that -chaos is definitely more "Wild Magey" now, but I just can't shake the feeling that losing the Chaos Shield for it is a bit rough when one is 100% mechanically useful, while the other is a MASSIVE, extremely unreliable, double edged sword. It just feels like, mechanically, a poor trade >.<

[ActionReplay]

I guess we could add in chaos shield again in the same command, aka:
-chaos shield (Has to be a space) or just make a new command for it.

Also someone suggested chaos shield be added to the surge table, so if you have fate you could still use it.

[RedGiant]

I see the offensive possibilities, but there are some definite drawbacks.

As to the thematic point that 'surginess' is the point of the class, I feel that old chaos did not detract at all from the chaotic feel or theme of the class. The new deal, to a very minor extent, was already possible in the game...as I said above. So this, to me, feels like something like a loss in functionality.


Moreover, what happens to those mages who simply aren't focused at all in offense? Mine is pure and focused on summons and their enhancement. Mine literally spams nothing...except buffs. So, the new deal for me is: a power I used often, along with all the RP that went with it, exchanged for a power I will never now actually use.

As a compromise, since I see the utility in the change for some concepts, why not have old chaos and new chaos be the branching results of the FOIG?

[RedGiant]

*edit

I must have been writing while Action was. I love the toggle idea...it keeps the old functionality and it is way easier on the player than what I was suggesting.

Alternatively, I don't like the idea of relegating it to the surge table...it's great as a stand alone power.

[Poolbrain]

-chaos used to be a nice last measure of defense when youre suddenly getting run down by a monster and you got no answere to defend yourself. Type -chaos and pray to tymora.

It was also a nice combo with tenser transformation

[Orian_666]

Obviously i'd love to see it returned as an ability. Being that my main is a Wild Mage i'm a bit biased.

But i'd only worry it may then be that Wild Mages get a bit too much "stuff"?
At the same time it's not like it's crazy powerful, and especially in PvP it's easy to just step in and out of it to keep the chances of a proc down....

At the end of the day i'm sure the team will make the right decision, even as things are i'm not all that upset about the changes, as much as I like Chaos Shield the new -chaos is still thematically very good

[Cerk Evermoore]

I think wild mages are pretty much superior to regular wizards because they can time stop a whole team in a volcano / drop a bunch of heavy items into a players inventory / summon monolith elementals. The only drawback is negative surges, so if they were removed wild mage would definitely be the most superior choice.

[Orian_666]

I don't think anyone is asking for the removal of negative surges?

[Tomato]

Also maining a wild mage right now, I would love for the old shield to be returned. I don't think it was OP, and I did like its randomness. I don't think I'll be using the new -chaos at all, simply because the "good" thing about it, is that it raises the DC of spells, while there are so few spells that actually have a DC in the surge table.

[Iceborn]

While I'm not playing a wild mage now (and this comment shouldn't be considered too heavily), I don't really understand the nature of this change. Wild mages seemed to have achieved a good spot, and the defensive, and chaotic nature of Chaos Shield was probably the only "ohno" button of a pure Wild Mage. It was extremely conditional, yes, but it was also a great tool to have.

I'm not against the idea of an ability to just 'let out' control, but I guess I'd take Chaos Shield over it any day of the week.

[Sockss]

I don't think there's any argument here that the shield was good.

It was good, it was very good - it contributed to wild mages being flat better than regular mages. (A chance to stun / kd / blind as a free action? On top of free spells and a heavily weighted positive surge table, provided you have the right immunities in place.

The shield wasn't very random, since it was /always/ positive.

They're still better than a regular mage even now. Which isn't a good thing.

It's a step in the right direction IMO with the new chaos both mechanically and thematically - chucking raw magic around should be risky and the DC increase makes negative effects and positive effects proportionately more menacing.

I'd even advocate the removal of spell replenishment entirely, that would be a good step in levelling out WM's power compared to regular wizards.

[susitsu]

The original -chaos was ridiculous and cause for 1v8s in pre-epic PvP. It was seriously too strong and did need to be removed.

There is a reason people want it back as a "comfortable option." New -chaos is definitely in the right direction, though actually Wild Mages are not better than normal mages by far. In epics and especially from the perspective of level 30, wild magic becomes a plague in PvP half of the time for you, the caster, (man it's funny when your ally self imprisons then turns into a cow in imprisonment while you 4vhowever many the Devil's Table population.)

Vanilla wizards are better without a doubt. Surges kill you-that's it. Additionally, there is the problem with necromancy.

I complained about monoliths after playing a necro wild mage, but was just told that's apart of the negatives. However all it does is discourage the type of character and encourage conjurers who succeed incredibly well alongside illusionists as wild mages. Wild magic is tailored to a style of gameplay where you're pretty much surrendering yourself to death with every spell, as you wait for players to either turn hostile or the one already PvPing you to send you a lol tell after you died from an oops I slipped surge.

[Cerk Evermoore]

Vanilla wizards are better without a doubt. Surges kill you-that's it. Additionally, there is the problem with necromancy.

If you surge a volcano and stop time. They are standing in that volcano for up to eight seconds, you follow up with a hellball IGMS spam and suddenly that group of people you are engaging is almost dead or dead.

Sure, you can have bad surges. But you can also -wish a near perfect combo of death onto a team of people single handedly, and rather easily imo.

[RedGiant]

Having been on the giving and receiving end of wild mage PvP, I think the notion presented in several threads that old chaos shield was OP or somehow gravely unbalancing is outright hilarity.

Lets be clear, we are talking about a once-per-rest power that creates an AoE effect resulting in a 20% compounding chance to receive a negative effect from a custom table. This custom table included nearly as many underwhelming effects as it did good effects. These effects could be negated simply by staying outside the clearly visible AoE, or with spell resistance, or spell mantles, or healer path powers, proper immunities, using ranged weapons, killing the mage before they fire, or simply waiting.

(Incidentally, anyone who owns a physical chaos shield [the item] can walk around with a lessor version of this up...pretty much all the time.)

I can tell you when going after a wild mage, I have never once thought..."nope boys, lets pack it up an go home, he has a chaos shield."

Finally, to the wild mage being a 'straight upgrade' crowd, I really wonder about the logic there. All I can say is that killing yourself repeatedly at inopportune moments, killing your friends repeatedly at inopportune moments, getting exiled from the nearest settlement for setting a balor loose, and generally not being allowed to cast inside any sane/normal settlement...none of these feel much like a 'straight upgrade'. Moreover, wild mages are highly incentivized to go pure, because...fate, so many, many are appropriately squishy (in fact, this squishiness is actually a requirement to be able to intentionally launch these apocryphal perfect surge combos). At best, my view of wild mages are horrendously, stupid dangerous early game to somewhat manageable late game (with the occasional irrevocable disaster still possible). I would call that progression and balance.

[Seekeepeek]

From my understanding the previous chaos shield did'nt have as much an effect on players as it did to monsters in PvE. but i could be wrong, never really used it a lot in either PvP or PvE. i think it's a good chance as it allow dc mages to have more fun, without being to powerful as a surge don't reset the spell slot while it's active.

also.. kudos to the DEVs for the wild mage path. one of the best classes/paths in the game in regard to fun factor.

[Sockss]

Here's the logic.

If your mage has saves and is going into battle with immunities running, (which, why wouldn't they?) There are exactly 2 surges that are harmful with no save or immunity, neither of which will kill you unless you're positioned very poorly. There's a handful more that are harmful and may kill you if you roll 1, specifically anything that results in a knockdown, but the chance of that happening in the first place is exceptionally slim. (1/500 when you surge, or 1/10000 chance if you're running at 5% surge)

A wild mage has, guaranteed, more spell casts per day than a regular wizard and these have no downsides, you can relegate them to buffs and cast them with impunity before you do anything.

Chaos Shield was hardly insignificant - unless you view knockdown, stun and blind as insignificant, or free chunks of elemental damage. Ensuring that for 30 rounds, as long as you weren't fighting something ranged, or a monk, you were untouchable and that if one of the CC effects procced, you would almost certainly win.

Positive surges of course are another factor which can range from allowing you to output more damage than a base wizard, to winning a PvP fight outright.

These effects could be negated simply by staying outside the clearly visible AoE, or with spell resistance, or spell mantles, or healer path powers, proper immunities, using ranged weapons, killing the mage before they fire, or simply waiting.

...

(Incidentally, anyone who owns a physical chaos shield [the item] can walk around with a lessor version of this up...pretty much all the time.)

...

Moreover, wild mages are highly incentivized to go pure, because...fate.

Are you seriously suggesting that a viable tactic against chaos shield is to use a spell mantle which will be breached, to take a healer with you and somehow keep the WM in a short duration AOE and kill him in that time, to immunise yourself against knockdown and blindness, somehow killing them instantly or- my personal favourite, simply waiting?

Using a ranged weapon might work, if you were able to use one effectively and actually push through damage enough to threaten them while remaining relatively unscathed by spellcasts from the WM. (So, I guess if you were a ranged character)

Chaos shield (the item) is very different and also requires being attacked, so you trade being hurt for proc chance. It's mind boggling you'd compare the two.

Wild mages are better cross-classed, as healers are. A pure bonus doesn't change that.

[Tomato]

tl;dr: Maybe a good change to the -chaos would be to give an option for a greater surge and spell replenishment if the surge the caster got is between 1-50?

There are exactly 2 surges that are harmful with no save or immunity, neither of which will kill you unless you're positioned very poorly.

This is a little more than "exactly 2 surges"
I died to these on my mage multiple times, and that's fine, I'm just making a point. Don't glorify the Wild Surge table as if it makes Wild Mage somehow superior to pure. I don't think it does. With every single spell you cast, imagine getting a thunderclap/sparkles/grease/transform fog/rothe surge in the middle of a crowded room and knocking 30 people over when all you wanted was to cast a bull's strength after a rest, or a 5 cow surge that does 40ish damage for cow after a rest, when you're encumbered, unbuffed, and can't run or cast an elemental immunity (Personally died like this, it was hilarious) It's an extremely inconvinient class to play, and when there's no payback for the surges like the new chaos does, I don't see how it'll be used at all.
Since a Wild Mage has to think about every single spell they cast, the opportunity for a wild surge is always there, and most of them are very disruptive. Here are a few of the worst ones. I mostly like the surge table, but I do think the positive surges need to be better.

A wild mage has, guaranteed, more spell casts per day than a regular wizard and these have no downsides, you can relegate them to buffs and cast them with impunity before you do anything.

And you can't relegate them to buffs, or cast them with impunity, to surge the buffs you'd have to go somewhere, where, if you got a volcano or a thunderclap you won't bother anyone. Also, it doesn't give you another spell of any kind, just the one you used, if you do surge it.
Here are a few of the downsides.

3 Caster is Held for 3 rounds. No save.
4 Caster is Held for 3 rounds. No save.
5 Caster is polymorphed into a cow. No save.
9 Caster is Held for 2 rounds. No save.
14 Caster is put to sleep.
15 Caster slips and falls.
25 Caster is teleported to target location.
29 Random polymorph fog on Caster.
39 Caster is stuck by Mindfire disease.
42 Caster is put to sleep for 3 rounds. No save.
43 Caster is struck by panic!
45 Caster is silenced - mostly - for a random duration.
48 Spell turning! The spell mirror backs to the Caster.
74 Target is struck by Sleep. No save.
88 Grease spell on Target. Caster Immune.

[Sockss]

3 Caster is Held for 3 rounds. No save. FoM makes you immune.
4 Caster is Held for 3 rounds. No save. FoM makes you immune.
5 Caster is polymorphed into a cow. No save. 2 rounds to run about, hardly insurmountable
9 Caster is Held for 2 rounds. No save. FoM makes you immune.
14 Caster is put to sleep. Roll 1, you'll get hit and then be awake
15 Caster slips and falls. One of the worse ones! 1 Round KD, pretty deadly if you're in melee range
25 Caster is teleported to target location. Can mitigate through a variety of actions
29 Random polymorph fog on Caster. Roll 1 and/or just move out of it
39 Caster is stuck by Mindfire disease. After 1 hour you'll take 1d4 int damage if you fail a fort save twice ??
42 Caster is put to sleep for 3 rounds. No save. Pretty sure this actually has a will save, regardless see above
43 Caster is struck by panic! A few rounds of panic, the most important component is ~50% spell failure, hardly insurmountable
45 Caster is silenced - mostly - for a random duration. Annoying, but still shouldn't get you killed. Will take you out of a fight for ~10 rounds iirc
48 Spell turning! The spell mirror backs to the Caster. At worse you'll igms yourself?
74 Target is struck by Sleep. No save. This is a positive surge, pretty sure it won't fire on the caster.
88 Grease spell on Target. Caster Immune. This is a positive surge

[susitsu]

Vanilla wizards are better without a doubt. Surges kill you-that's it. Additionally, there is the problem with necromancy.

If you surge a volcano and stop time. They are standing in that volcano for up to eight seconds, you follow up with a hellball IGMS spam and suddenly that group of people you are engaging is almost dead or dead.

Sure, you can have bad surges. But you can also -wish a near perfect combo of death onto a team of people single handedly, and rather easily imo.

come back to me with proof, and then try it again with a group.

[Sea Shanties]

I guess we could add in chaos shield again in the same command, aka:
-chaos shield (Has to be a space) or just make a new command for it.

Also someone suggested chaos shield be added to the surge table, so if you have fate you could still use it.

I suggested adding it to the table but that was only in lieu of anything else. I'd much rather see it returned as it seemed like a useful and not at all overpowered feature of the class that didn't need to be removed.

[Alox]

Vanilla wizards are better without a doubt. Surges kill you-that's it. Additionally, there is the problem with necromancy.

If you surge a volcano and stop time. They are standing in that volcano for up to eight seconds, you follow up with a hellball IGMS spam and suddenly that group of people you are engaging is almost dead or dead.

Sure, you can have bad surges. But you can also -wish a near perfect combo of death onto a team of people single handedly, and rather easily imo.

come back to me with proof, and then try it again with a group.

Anyone who has played with a competent pure wild mage knows they are superior to vanilla wizards. The less wizards levels you take, the less obvious wild mage choice becomes, in particular if you want to do necromancy.