There is no reason to play evil on surface anymore

[budii]

I don't play an evil character, despite people's claims to the contrary. However I have noticed there is no reason to play evil on surface. Every good character is fanatically good, and every neutral character aims to protect those fanatically good ones (at least in my experience of the past year of server environment). The only places you can be 'evil' is in the underdark, and if you don't like that then well tough luck.

Arelith really does need a chaotic neutral settlement where evil, neutral, and other seedy characters can fester, the Crows nest just isn't it, Sibayad just isn't it. Wharftown was ONCE it, but no longer. Is Arelith supposed to be a good-aligned island? Is good supposed to be the prevailing alignment in DnD on a mass scale? Because as the majority of Faerun would report, the majority of people are not good. They're neutral, they're just trying to get by-- products of their environment.

As of currently there is no reason to play evil on surface and I challenge you to find me a reason why you would, because I can point you towards masses of detect-evil spamming paladins, people using the mechanics to gamify whether or not someone is 'evil' and other nonsense that turns into 13v1/2 witch hunts because THERE CAN BE NO EVIL.

[Vincent]

I had a NE character I essentially roleplayed as NG. I committed many more good and charitable acts than evil as I figured the PC's mentality was "look out for myself above all others," and endearing himself to the crowd and fitting in was paramount.

I have to confess I found them very boring, and there's a reason I ended up deleting them. I figured I'd be an opportunistic sort and eventually seek some grand evil machination for them to indulge, but it never really happened. I know someone who's done something similar but actually went through with a diabolical plot they'd been planning, and now they're PvPed on sight wherever they go. I suppose it's justified, but wouldn't some amount of roleplay be more fun for both parties?

Whatever the case I agree wholeheartedly that saying "Sencliff" and "The Underdark" is not a solution. I personally abhor the latter after a terrible experience I had there with a PC I put my heart and soul into writing, and the former is really only for pirate PCs, if I'm not mistaken. Wharftown seemed to be an excellent balance and removing it has felt very counter-intuitive to me.

[Aodh Lazuli]

I am currently playing an evil character on surface. I am enjoying it immensely.

I think that perhaps there isn't much point in playing "black-spikes-and-reacreational-kitten-kicking" evil. But that's rather boring anyway.

[budii]

The thing is, this server has a MASSIVE problem with people who do not have patience nor empathy but play 'good' characters. They merely think because they've clicked the good button that they're automatically good now, and anything they do is good. It's pretty jarring when a character who is LN makes more prominent goodly progress and makes more people happy and defends the weak more often then LG characters who repeatedly seek out low-level characters to roflstomp for 'GOOD'.

I'd say this server's biggest problem is the lack of moderation of good characters, but honestly I think it's just -one- of it's biggest problems.

[Aodh Lazuli]

You sound extremely upset. As a matter of fact this sorta reads like it's a rant about specific characters who have been played in a manner you disapprove of, which is being re-framed to make it seem like it is a wider and more general problem.

If you believe there are people who are not properly playing their alignment, or who are not allowing any space for others to flourish, or are behaving in a manner which is ill-tempered ooc, then report it. Include evidence, context, interpretation, analysis, and so on then submit it as a private message to the DM team.

[budii]

I don't play an evil character. Pretty sure I can talk with some amount of zeal on an issue I'm passionate about and refer to A LOT of people when doing so. I've been playing this game for years and haven't posted on the problem but I've seen it across generations of players.

So no, I'm happy you're making inferences that aren't there but please keep them out of my thread.

[The Rambling Midget]

THERE CAN BE NO EVIL.

You've started this thread by making a statement as if it's unequivocal fact, meaning that you have no desire for discussion. I think this would be better posted in the Feedback area so that the staff can work toward addressing it.

[Cerk Evermoore]

I encourage anyone who thinks this thread isn't true to try and level someone who is openly a necromancer or warlock on the surface that just solo grinds popular spots. I'd say you'd probably get PKed about 10+ times before you hit 30.

Easy to stand on the sidelines and say "Nah, it isn't a problem." Go out there and experiment with it yourself. How can you actually know and not just speculate until you've actually done it?

[MoreThanThree]

Suffer not the evil to live.

[Nitro]

I encourage anyone who thinks this thread isn't true to try and level someone who is openly a necromancer or warlock on the surface that just solo grinds popular spots. I'd say you'd probably get PKed about 10+ times before you hit 30.

Easy to stand on the sidelines and say "Nah, it isn't a problem." Go out there and experiment with it yourself. How can you actually know and not just speculate until you've actually done it?

Yeah, of course that's going to happen. The same will happen if you play an open paladin in the underdark. Being evil on the surface is entirely possible but if you're an obvious necromancer/warlock that walks around with their super evil things out all the time of course you're going to draw a lot of flak for it. And even then there's the Sencliff route if you still want to be very obviously evil on the surface.

There's no problem with playing evil on the surface. There's a (entirely justified) problem if you play a mustache twirling villain without expecting people to go against you at every turn. If you want to be evil on the surface and not face opposition for it, play it subtle and bide your time. Collect allies, get goodly folk to vouch for you or collect a possy of like-minded evil folk to go with you. There's so many options arrayed on the table more than just wandering around with undeads out while leveling.

[O-H41]

What Cerk Evermoore says is true. Even playing Neutral in places you'd expect to find a lot of Neutral PCs - governments, druid groves, or just wandering dungeons committing your daily mass murder for writs - you will find that Good is entrenched and will PvP at the drop of a hat. I've played the spectrum of alignments. It's really obvious that non-Good player characters have a more difficult time on most of the areas on the Surface and Distant Shore servers. Outside of Sencliff, there's not a lot of safe space for them.

[Basementfellow]

Whoo boy. Already, condescension abounds. I don't think telling people "you're on the surface as a warlock dude you're not supposed to have fun" is extraordinarily helpful, fellas. I hope this doesn't get the thread locked, but I feel the need to tell a story.

I do happen to play a warlock at the moment. An Infernalist built around slowly gaining trust and preaching subliminally evil rhetoric about self-improvement and ambition and what-not. I was cautious not to act too dubiously around those I figured leaned more towards neutral or good.

I fully expected to be caught, eventually. That's part of the fun of playing a villain, especially one which focuses on subterfuge. That grand and terrible realization as so much intrigue finally comes to it's breaking point!

Alas, that's not at all what happened. No, I didn't get caught because I was solo-grinding with my summon out. No, I didn't cast spells in the middle of Cordor. No, I didn't even get caught preaching a veiled version of the Canticle of the Damned like I'd intended to be.

I'd forgotten to turn the glowy-eyes off for a moment (I'm not sure why they came on again when I crossed servers, I'd not cast an Eldritch Blast for a long while) after the server transition to Cordor, and a guardsman happened out of a nearby building to call me out on it, and proceeded to stonewall any attempts my character made to talk his way out of it. This man saw perfectly from an odd angle as he was attending his own business that my character's eyes were flickering with specifically evil magic.

The situation quickly drew a crowd. My character was subjected to mechanically-based-bordering-on-metagame nonsense such as "Summon a badger! That way we'll know you're not pacted!" and more recently in my character's attempt to appeal, "So if I cast Daze on you you'll fail the will save because like you said you're just a defenseless old man, right?" And other such thinly-veiled attempts at securing a victory at all costs.

It was rather anti-climactic. Disheartening, even. I wanted to collaborate to create a compelling narrative, and I thought my RP was interesting enough to facilitate that. Instead, I felt ignored, and almost spitefully shunted out of Cordor. Let me say, I know; bad things happen to good adventurers. It's why I never professed any anger or resentment towards the situation or the people involved. I'm happy to continue playing the character, and having him adapt to the situation. I just can't help but be a little disappointed.

This isn't an issue of someone playing an overtly EVIL caricature and others rightly reacting to it. I'm confused as to why so many jumped straight to that sordid conclusion. And clearly, if even someone who doesn't play a villain at the moment can see it, it's not so small an issue as many may think.

[Aodh Lazuli]

making inferences.

I believe you also said...

The thing is, this server has a MASSIVE problem with people who do not have patience nor empathy but play 'good' characters. They merely think because they've clicked the good button that they're automatically good now, and anything they do is good.

<snip>

LG characters who repeatedly seek out low-level characters to roflstomp for 'GOOD'.

So lets talk about making inferences.

[Burt Macklin, FBI]

I have to agree with budii and Basementfellow here.

As a sort of tie in with the thread I recently made about the constant need to "win" at a persistent story, this is the most prevalent when dealing with "goodly" characters. It's difficult for evil to find a foothold, and not only because of the fact they're openly evil; that can be the case sometimes, of course, but in the case of Basementfellow - and myself, more recently - I've found any evil characters of mine get stonewalled at every turn. Instead of getting a chance to explain, or to escape the horde of epic levels that have gathered to confront you, you're left to flounder at the imminent risk of being bashed or exiled.

Which, again, while not entirely unexpected, it's disheartening when someone else's need to "win" this confrontation leads to you not having any fun, and very possibly ruining any subterfuge you had planned in the process, as the "winners" spread your profile and description across the isle.

It's just something to keep in mind, when dealing with this sort of "us versus them" situation. Evil players are people too! They have stories they want to tell; their sole existence isn't always to bother the good guys.

[budii]

making inferences.

I believe you also said...

The thing is, this server has a MASSIVE problem with people who do not have patience nor empathy but play 'good' characters. They merely think because they've clicked the good button that they're automatically good now, and anything they do is good. It's pretty jarring when a character who is LN makes more prominent goodly progress and makes more people happy and defends the weak more often then LG characters who repeatedly seek out low-level characters to roflstomp for 'GOOD'.

So lets talk about making inferences.

I don't think you understand that an experience is not an inference, and my subjective opinion on something does not make it an impartial objective fact by any means. But when I see the same thing day in and day out for years, it doesn't matter in which way I present the objective REALITY-- it could be in all caps and it wouldn't make it any less true. The one making inferences about this being about you or your friendgroup or your perception of thus does not matter to me in the slightest. This is not me making something up, these are from years of experiences I have seen good characters enact upon others and upon my own who is lawful neutral.

Stop trying the 'gottem' argument, we all know this is a problem and ignoring it is silly.

[A little fellow]

So obviously the original point of this thread is not true .. there is a place for evil on the surface, just like there is a place for good in the Underdark. Subtlety is usually the best way to achieve a decent story when you're attempting to commit acts of evil in good lands, or acts of good in evil lands.

I'm not saying it's easy, of course. I think one of the biggest problems with trying to create a coherent and interesting story on Arelith is the fact that a majority of players attempt to snuff out embers before they can become a fire. That is one of the main reasons why I dislike scrying, and detect evil .. it serves little purpose beyond ending a story before it has even begun.

I think it'd be good to encourage all players to continually consider how perceptive their characters should be towards the story/characters around them, in order to give other peoples plots room to breathe. Players who choose to have their characters not solve a crime before it has been committed should be praised. There is no clearer way to separate yourself from your character (which is a good thing!) than to make them unaware of something you as a player are aware of.

[MoreThanThree]

Maybe instead of asking us to change, you should git gud (aligned)?

[Cerk Evermoore]

Sencliff isn't a safe space. There is no real repeatable writs or effective grind spots on the island. Eventually you are going to be forced to go to the mainland and then get ready. That's without even mentioning the rogues who sneak around the island and PK people who are level 3-29 who are not very good at pvp.

[Wrips]

I'd rather pull a tooth than play evil on surface again (and it was honorable LE antibrycer with no summons).

[-XXX-]

This thread will not go into constructive places.
The opposing sides on each end of this argument are just too reluctant to see where the other side's coming from.
There are entire books worth of posts on this topic on these forums to confirm this - all locked by forum moderators.

[MoreThanThree]

>implying half the surface isn't already evil
Is OP even playing the same server as us?

[budii]

This thread will not go into constructive places.
The opposing sides on each end of this argument are just too reluctant to see where the other side's coming from.
There are entire books worth of posts on this topic on these forums to confirm this - all locked by forum moderators.

'haha that never happens, no i dont play anyone who could ever be affected by this, why do u ask?'

I've seen this said so many times in so many different ways that it makes me sad. I am the least vocal player in the forums, before I made this thread, I had THREE posts. But even though I'm a relative unknown, and even though my opinion (due to the fact that I have little to no actual friends IG) is mostly impartial, I MUST be fabricating a problem that only I have experienced.

[budii]

>implying half the surface isn't already evil
Is OP even playing the same server as us?

Accidentally playing evil because you don't know the difference between it and good isn't considered evil here. So yeah.

[MoreThanThree]

Accidentally playing evil because you don't know the difference between it and good isn't considered evil here. So yeah.

Half of the settlements on the surface are friendly or even subservient to the Banite faction. Evil thrives on the surface.

[Aodh Lazuli]

Accidentally playing evil because you don't know the difference between it and good isn't considered evil here. So yeah.

I'm going to assume this statement is made exclusively within the context of this game, and carries no further reaching implications.