Outcast recognition

[TimeAdept]

Would it be possible to apply the same in the UD, and within Andunor, citizens of Andunor can recognize non-Outcasts? If Outcasts are famous enough to where they can be recognized on the surface, then within Andunor, those non-monster races without that fame, or citizens of surface settlements, should stand out like a sore thumb below.

Some minor beef with the system but would like to see it encourage 2 way interaction, rather than only apply to one half of the equation. After the long feedback of the 'evil on surface' topic, this has been a massive torpedo to the ability for any evil to survive on the surface yet again, as now they can be called out and killed essentially on sight by the entire surface server.

While I can agree with the sentiment that outcasts shouldn't have total free reign of the server, by background and design, any surfacer that picks up Undercommon in any of the language courses throughout the server can now do so in the UD, with no issues.

I'm not a huge fan of this change but I get the logic and theory behind it being applied. It just feels mistimed - after a huge topic about the stress of evil on the surface, now UD evil can no longer function on the surface in any way but 100% adversarial, all the time. It strangles depth of roleplay that can happen, and brings us back to simple confrontation.

My problem lies in the non reciprocal nature of the situation (surfacers can't be pegged in the UD) and in the timing (we've just had a large discussion on the difficult nature of good and evil, and how to encourage non PvP - but adversaral - RP in a way that builds stories), of the update, which encourages "callout" RP that just leads to fights, PVP, and exile - which by its nature is exclusive and roleplay ending.

[The Rambling Midget]

If Outcasts are famous enough to where they can be recognized on the surface, then within Andunor, those non-monster races without that fame, or citizens of surface settlements, should stand out like a sore thumb below.

The rest aside, I'm not sure how you'd stick out like a sore thumb for not being famous.

I'm also assuming that Disguise will cover up the Outcast notification.

[TimeAdept]

The rest aside, I'm not sure how you'd stick out like a sore thumb for not being famous.

The same way US tourists stick out in Europe. Lack of adjustment to the light levels, general unfamiliarity, surface accents, lack of undercommon experience. If Outcasts are so reviled on the surface that they can be known without a lore,s pot, or anything check, then by inference they must also be known well enough in the Underdark to be able to function down there, buy property, and be known well enough to not be instantly taken as slaves or chattel. Anyone who doesn't have that level of knowledge or infamy or ability to exist must, then, be a surfacer.

[Ebonstar]

The rest aside, I'm not sure how you'd stick out like a sore thumb for not being famous.

The same way US tourists stick out in Europe. Lack of adjustment to the light levels, general unfamiliarity, surface accents, lack of undercommon experience. If Outcasts are so reviled on the surface that they can be known without a lore,s pot, or anything check, then by inference they must also be known well enough in the Underdark to be able to function down there, buy property, and be known well enough to not be instantly taken as slaves or chattel. Anyone who doesn't have that level of knowledge or infamy or ability to exist must, then, be a surfacer.

its not that they are so reviled, it would be common knowledge if joe bad guy was cast out of a settlement. Easy way to clarify would be to not think of cordor or bendir or brog as new york city, paris, or london, but more like napa valley, liverpool, and canne.

people who live in a place know who has been tossed out, as it would be local news but might be able to start over across the country or in another one.

[Chair]

Well, no. OP think on it. Essentially all that needs done to apply that same sight to the UD settlements as well. After all, the denizens would know who would frequent there more than the common public on the surface would. And from that all you would need to do is look for people without the Outcast tag. And boom, it affects both sides. If the underdark Settlements are unable to view that someone is Outcast I will have to conduct some hard 'HRMM"ing to the justification for this update.

[Scurvy Cur]

The justification is a fairly clear one.

Outcasts are outcasts because they have achieved a level of infamy in civilized surface lands, rather than because they have formed any habit of "frequenting Andunor". For this reason, it makes sense that members of civilized surface settlements would be able to identify them (absent disguises, etc.). It makes far less sense for residents of the Underdark to recognize someone for their infamy within surface communities. Put another way, it makes no sense for your average drow or kobold to be aware of someone's status as persona non grata on the surface, because it is essentially a fine point of surface politics and therefore unlikely to matter or be something with which they are even remotely familiar.

[Hazard]

The justification is a fairly clear one.

Since outcasts are outcasts because they have achieved a level of infamy in civilized surface lands, rather than because they have formed any habit of "frequenting Andunor". For this reason, it makes sense that members of civilized surface settlements would be able to identify them (absent disguises, etc.). It makes far less sense for residents of the Underdark to recognize someone for their infamy within surface communities. Put another way, it makes no sense for your average drow or kobold to be aware of someone's status as persona non grata on the surface, because it is essentially a fine point of surface politics and therefore unlikely to matter or be something with which they are even remotely familiar.

Makes sense to me.

[Durvayas]

Some minor beef with the system but would like to see it encourage 2 way interaction, rather than only apply to one half of the equation. After the long feedback of the 'evil on surface' topic, this has been a massive torpedo to the ability for any evil to survive on the surface yet again, as now they can be called out and killed essentially on sight by the entire surface server.

While I can agree with the sentiment that outcasts shouldn't have total free reign of the server, by background and design, any surfacer that picks up Undercommon in any of the language courses throughout the server can now do so in the UD, with no issues.

I'm not a huge fan of this change but I get the logic and theory behind it being applied. It just feels mistimed - after a huge topic about the stress of evil on the surface, now UD evil can no longer function on the surface in any way but 100% adversarial, all the time. It strangles depth of roleplay that can happen, and brings us back to simple confrontation.

My problem lies in the non reciprocal nature of the situation (surfacers can't be pegged in the UD) and in the timing (we've just had a large discussion on the difficult nature of good and evil, and how to encourage non PvP - but adversaral - RP in a way that builds stories), of the update, which encourages "callout" RP that just leads to fights, PVP, and exile - which by its nature is exclusive and roleplay ending.

I have to agree with all of this. The timing is not good.

It also eliminates any and all outcast spy RP, as any evil human hiding out on the surface can now apparently be spotted instantaneously, or does disguise hide this tag?

[TimeAdept]

Disguise does hide it, but only encourages never doing it until 30 and fully bluff geared.

[MorallyGrey]

It also eliminates any and all outcast spy RP, as any evil human hiding out on the surface can now apparently be spotted instantaneously, or does disguise hide this tag?

Not all evil humans are outcasts. Outcasts are outcasts, and they did (or got caught doing something) much worse than your typical surface evil guy. This is what someone chooses when they pick outcast, you did SOMETHING truly, truly awful in your past to earn it.

[Piri]

How can I Rp my revulsion at what someone did before I even know what it is OOC?

[TimeAdept]

The justification is a fairly clear one.

Outcasts are outcasts because they have achieved a level of infamy in civilized surface lands, rather than because they have formed any habit of "frequenting Andunor". For this reason, it makes sense that members of civilized surface settlements would be able to identify them (absent disguises, etc.). It makes far less sense for residents of the Underdark to recognize someone for their infamy within surface communities. Put another way, it makes no sense for your average drow or kobold to be aware of someone's status as persona non grata on the surface, because it is essentially a fine point of surface politics and therefore unlikely to matter or be something with which they are even remotely familiar.

I am willing to concede the two way street, but still feel the tag being as it is, is a poor implementation at best, and a direct hindrance to RP at worst. Outcasts are now easier to spot than Drow, Orogs and Duergar, requiring only 10k gold and a citizenship in any surface settlement. It requires no lore check, and can never go away once applied, so even if with disguise, a single target breaking your disguise once means the tag is known forever. Like pirates, it encourages "label based" adversarial-PVP style RP, and exclusionary exile-RP, rather than intrigue and indepth antagonistic RP. It's traded depth of RP (spy RP) for breadth of encounter RP (very easy to spot outcasts).

I absolutely understand the angle being put forth here, and completely concede that outcasts can very easily have the run of the server. I have played both sides and it's completely true. However, a lore-less check available to any PC at level 3 with 10k with no investment that covers every outcast ever made without regard for that PC's personal history or the wrongs they may have actually done does not feel like it contributes to a positive story creating environment on the server. People will be much more encouraged to act when the label is there for everyone to see, even if the knowledge is known IC and disseminated. Guard PCs will now be pressured to act and PvP and actively exile. Outcasts, instead of having the freedom to create story and serve as a "bridge" between the surface and the UD, now are stuck underground, creating two clean divides in the playerbase again. Surfacers don't generally get to go to the UD without issue, and Outcasts aren't treated too well up top without some level of apathy. What this means is Outcasts often serve as double agents and spies for both sides, furthering conflict without leading to explicit PvP.

I'm typing a bunch without seeing it in action, sure, but we've seen what happens to pirates now that the label exists, and Pirates actually have a Lore check to overcome when it comes to seeing their true nature, and we're expected to RP that if people are covered up, that we don't instantly out people for tattoos. This has been said by DMs and Irongron even, that this sort of 'callout RP' of pirates, warlocks (for glowing eyes) and so forth for purely mechanics is bad for the server.

Why then is it OK for every PC citizen up top to know that everyone is an outcast, despite not actually knowing the PC, who they are, what their crimes may be, etc? why does citizenship give you an encyclopedia of the realms Worst Villains - but not let you tell a Drow from an Elf, despite huge bodytype differences, or an Orog from a Half Orc, despite huge bodytype differences - but you could know that Half Orc was hated everywhere on Arelith.... for something?

It feels at crosspurposes with recent stated design intention, and I don't feel it's a positive for the server.

thank you for reading this overly wordy, admittedly sort of dramatic post.
i had cool rp going on, and i'm definitely sort of salty and frustrated, because i feel like it's going to come to an abrupt and unsatisfying (for both parties) end because of the label in my PC's bio.

[Iceborn]

I feel this has been necessary for a long time. Outcast characters should be regarded with the same prejudice as all monster characters, and this is the contract you have to accept at the time of playing it.

It is in the personal responsibility of the players to learn to properly portray the nature of their characters, and the inability to do so (because let's be real here. Few players are capable of sacrificing their own liberties for the sake of retaining the server's purity) is due to call out the staff to take firmer, limiting actions.

If anything, I'm surprised this was not implemented years ago.



However, I agree that the mechanics are a little too stiff and could use a little of dynamic counterplay. The number game is not fun to play when your RP tethers from wishing nobody had more ranks in spot than you in bluffs.

[Alox]

I think this change is a step in the right direction. I can see some short term problems for people, but it will be good in the long term.

Next step that is needed in my opinion is to give outed evil chars the option to convert to being outcasts, essentially trading that its publicly known they are outcasts to get access to the Andunor portals. In a similar vein to converting to being a pirate.

[WinkinBlinkin]

I have an immersion problem with thinking what an outcast can possibly have done. Its alright saying that they are the equivalent of Hitler, but given Hitler was at least partially responsible for wiping out almost 1% of the world's population, its unfeasible to have dozens of them walking around at lvl 3. Given that evil temples exist on the surface along with evil politicians, corrupt guards, etc, just what is it that people do that is bad enough to get them booted out of every civilised settlement, simple enough to pull off as an unskilled person in a world of heroes, and yet small enough to have had no noticeable real effect on anything whatsoever?

Do they just have really, really bad B.O.?

[TimeAdept]

I think this change is a step in the right direction. I can see some short term problems for people, but it will be good in the long term.

Next step that is needed in my opinion is to give outed evil chars the option to convert to being outcasts, essentially trading that its publicly known they are outcasts to get access to the Andunor portals. In a similar vein to converting to being a pirate.

This existed and was explicitly removed by the DMs/Devs as an ingame option, and notw must be petitioned through the DM team.

[TimeAdept]

I have an immersion problem with thinking what an outcast can possibly have done. Its alright saying that they are the equivalent of Hitler, but given Hitler was at least partially responsible for wiping out almost 1% of the world's population, its unfeasible to have dozens of them walking around at lvl 3. Given that evil temples exist on the surface along with evil politicians, corrupt guards, etc, just what is it that people do that is bad enough to get them booted out of every civilised settlement, simple enough to pull off as an unskilled person in a world of heroes, and yet small enough to have had no noticeable real effect on anything whatsoever?

Do they just have really, really bad B.O.?

Even more, how do you know someone is an Outcast without actually knowing the person? You don't know names and can't metagame the floating tag, yet you know they are a villain,for doing... something, and you can indelibly recognize this among every single outcast despite never having met them, ever, or knowing what they actually did. Which is something that could/would GREATLY inform your PC's reaction to them - but the only way to discover this is through a lengthy OOC discussion with a PC who may not want to be revealing these story and plot details in an OOC tell for the same of a quick reaction IC to someone who doesn't even know who they're looking at beyond "Outcast".

[Sea Shanties]

I have an immersion problem with thinking what an outcast can possibly have done.

Maybe it was something their family did, maybe they were part of a cult or failed coup or defeated army... maybe they were much more powerful before but suffered a huge defeat are nursing their wounds below.. maybe a diviner saw a prophecy about the monster they will become... , maybe they were framed... maybe they slept with the wrong nobleman's wife and there's a huge bounty on their head... maybe they inadvertently caused a huge disaster through carelessness or clumsiness... maybe maybe maybe a hundred other things that aren't "super villain" but are enough to make you a public enemy. The easiest thing to do is probably look at them as disoriented by being driven below, maybe just with the clothes on their back, and they're regaining their wits as they level.

I think one thing this change will do is encourage outcasts to have a good story.

[Dachlatte]

Interesting Update.

With the Vision Increase and the "hey-look-a-disguised-char-I-will-spam-looks-now-for-no-IG-reason" I do expect a lot of odd RP upcoming. Playing an evil char on both worlds (surface/UD) was a real challenge and a lot of fun over the last years, I am not trying to get pessimistic, but now I fear we have a lot of "everyone detects evil-outcasts-paladins" roaming about (like the poor pirates and their tattoos).

I hope there are adjustments to improve the Disguise system as well in the near future for counter measures. Presently it is not manageable to keep up a RP disguise for even a brief time (even with very high disguise, but it is nothing against insanely high spot skill stats on almost any char in existance). And I am not talking about the detection-invasion-looks-attempts, RPing in a crowd (see above).

Maybe a CD for look attempts? Getting -looks back, instead of simply right-clicking the char, which made it at least a bit more tricky to overthrow a disguise.

Happy about finding out how it works IG... and that my thoughts might prove wrong... hopefully.

[Terenfel]

maybe add a lore check DC 50 minus the outcasts level so its dc 20 against a level 30 outcast.

and let the outcast describe why they are a outcast in so that it appears to those lore wise enough to know about their crimes. after the outcast text. for those who would like it to be known why they are a outcast.. those who wants it a secret could just leave it blank.

[Sartain]

I'm new and I don't really know the specifics of these systems but so long as it's based in mechanics it means that the RP that goes along with outcasts/disguises and such becomes the sole purview of the high levels. Which in my low-level opinion sucks

[Alox]

I think this change is a step in the right direction. I can see some short term problems for people, but it will be good in the long term.

Next step that is needed in my opinion is to give outed evil chars the option to convert to being outcasts, essentially trading that its publicly known they are outcasts to get access to the Andunor portals. In a similar vein to converting to being a pirate.

This existed and was explicitly removed by the DMs/Devs as an ingame option, and notw must be petitioned through the DM team.

I guess the premise has changed now.

I think there is a good reason to support people playing evil newbie on the surface and have the event that make them an outcast be played out in RP as part of the characters development. I would even say it makes more sense than starting a level 1 outcast.

[solo]

I don't want to add fuel to the fire, here, but just one observation...

Arelith has an IC history that spans back at least the 15 RL or so years that the server has been active.

My character has been around for a couple of RL weeks now.

Through reading OOC posts on the forums for the past couple of weeks, I've learned a lot about the history of Arelith. Ranging from the destruction of...crap...I forgot. Some village near Cordor where evil people would go. To the time when the Underdark was filled with Drow and monsters, and has since been populated by hordes of humans, including Lloth having lost much relevance. A half-orc settlement was settled somewhere. Paladins apparently breed like rabbits.

All of this, is stuff I found out in an OOC capacity.

My character, from an IC perspective, has not been able to meet a single person, or find a single book, capable of detailing, or at least outlining, the history of the world he's currently in. There are some books. But they're usually very narrow and specific in the scope of the events they detail.

I've asked... were there any wars in the past? Who fought in them? How did they end? Are there any nations other than Cordor in Arelith? Does Cordor have rivals or trade partners? Are there any people (PCs) who distinguished themselves by... conquering something... discovering something... negotiating a peace treaty... assassinating a difficult mark... finding a way into that lovely artificier's tower...?

These are all questions I've asked IC. The answers are always vague at best.

So, my character is unable to find anyone who even has a clue about the events that have taken place for the past 15 RL years, but... he can recognize an outcast in the blink of an eye on the basis that... they're famous because they did something horrible at some undefined point in the past?

The 'problem' is compounded even further when dealing with a toon that was started as an outcast. The hell did they even do to be outcast? Outcast from where anyway? Were they born down there? Fine. So why are they famous on the surface to the point of being killed on sight then?

We can look at the problem in RL terms too. I'm willing to bet that most of the people on here wouldn't recognize El Chapo if he was standing in front of them. In fact, I'm willing to bet a fair number of people are going to have to Google him to know what I'm even referring to. And it's not as if we're talking about some obscure low level criminal here. Or maybe the name isn't memorable enough for people to know who he is? Fine. What about General Butt Naked? Now that's a name you'll remember. Know him? Would you recognize him? My money's on no. Okay, so maybe people on here won't know him because he's so far removed from where they live. Fair enough. General Vang Pao, then. I'm going to assume that most players on here are from the USA, and yet, I'm going to assume that Operation POPCORN (No, I'm not making this up) isn't going to ring any bells?

And that's in the modern world. With internet. Television. Radio. Rapid transportation. GPS.

I have difficulty wrapping my mind around the concept of a bunch of clowns who probably think the Earth is flat, running around in armour and waving swords, are going to be able to have a more efficient law enforcement and counter-espionage apparatus than both superpowers had during the Cold War.

But perhaps I'm not familiar enough with the server. I did feel the need to point out the above, because quite frankly, I'm a bit amazed that it hasn't been brought up yet. This whole "Everyone on Arelith is equipped with a facial recognition software implanted in their brain" is... nonsensical.

Anyway, I bring this up only because just today I saw someone who was playing an outcast essentially getting stonewalled at every turn by a good Samaritan who felt the need to protect us all, and it was just painful to watch... About as painful as when I had the pleasure of seeing "If you're not a Shadow Mage, then cast Wall of Fire to prove it!", "No, the Shades version doesn't count!", and "Only Shadow Mages of Shar have the ability to Hide while still in plain sight."

[Seekeepeek]

Settlement outcasts posters.

[WinkinBlinkin]

I have an immersion problem with thinking what an outcast can possibly have done.

Maybe it was something their family did, maybe they were part of a cult or failed coup or defeated army... maybe they were much more powerful before but suffered a huge defeat are nursing their wounds below.. maybe a diviner saw a prophecy about the monster they will become... , maybe they were framed... maybe they slept with the wrong nobleman's wife and there's a huge bounty on their head... maybe they inadvertently caused a huge disaster through carelessness or clumsiness... maybe maybe maybe a hundred other things that aren't "super villain" but are enough to make you a public enemy. The easiest thing to do is probably look at them as disoriented by being driven below, maybe just with the clothes on their back, and they're regaining their wits as they level.

I think one thing this change will do is encourage outcasts to have a good story.

The thing is, if you were part of a failed coup, or had been a member of a cult, or a defeated army, or your family had done something horrible in the past, and you brought this up with someone in the course of roleplay -without- having the Outcast tag, I can guarantee you would get a very different response to the one you get from having an Outcast tag that can mean any of those things.