Outcast recognition

[Shadowy Reality]

People seem to forget, Outcasts can be neutral.

As mentioned before, the contract when you play an Outcast is that you were shunned and forced to live below, amongst monsters, you are not a monster necessarily. I expect them to be seen with distrust, both in Surface and Underdark, not really belonging anywhere, but I do not expect them to be met with outright violence.

[Alox]

People seem to forget, Outcasts can be neutral.

As mentioned before, the contract when you play an Outcast is that you were shunned and forced to live below, amongst monsters, you are not a monster necessarily. I expect them to be seen with distrust, both in Surface and Underdark, not really belonging anywhere, but I do not expect them to be met with outright violence.

It goes for most encounters that outright violence is the lesser choice, even when a paladin encounters monsters.

[Frykenstein]

three out of four Paladins have out right attacked me as a Warlock without RP so far...
On the other hand non-paladins chose to rp so far. could be worth mentioning I'm no outcast

I do like the change but I remain sceptical because of such paladins for example who will attack on sight in stead of initiate RP. It is a whole other matter if the outcast refuses to rp of course.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I shudder to bring Godwin to a thread, but I think the logic behind every outcast being recognized on the surface is pretty straight up.

None of us ever met Hitler. Every last one of us knows of the massive impact he had on the world, and how egregious it was. Most of us can probably even draw an image of his face to our minds, never mind the fact he's been dead for a long time.

If you're playing an outcast, despite it being a smaller, medieval world, you should expect the same level of infamy as an outcast on the surface. Yes - everyone knows who you are. Whatever awful thing you did in your backstory, that's the consequence. If you aren't prepared to play a character that did something so truly awful and horrific as part of their story, you don't want to play an outcast.

I've always understood that to be the status of an outcast from the creation dialogue, but I do genuinely feel I've seen most try to find some way around this. It's not meant to be a mechanical trade of any kind, or thought of in that light- it's an RP obligation to the narrative of the concept, regardless of whether it hinders or aids.

I think the tag is a good thing.

[The GrumpyCat]

three out of four Paladins have out right attacked me as a Warlock without RP so far...
On the other hand non-paladins chose to rp so far. could be worth mentioning I'm no outcast

I do like the change but I remain sceptical because of such paladins for example who will attack on sight in stead of initiate RP. It is a whole other matter if the outcast refuses to rp of course.

Please can you send these No-rp-pvp reports to us so we can deal with them then?

[Frykenstein]

Grumpy

It was peacefully resolved through PM:s Two was new to Arelith and the rules. The third one attacked my summon first so I didn't think much of it but if it happens again I'll report it if that is what the DM:s wish. I thought of my message as more of a reminder to prioritize RP.

[Eters]

I believe the change is born from the way the RP has been led.

Outcast was the "easy" way for anyone to enjoy both the perks of the UD, and the perks of the Surface, without having to suffer any of the drawbacks. "I can just go below, and I can just go above, and so long as no one from below sees me above, and no one from above sees me below? I'm everyone's friend." , and while not everyone embraced it as such, it certainly was recurring enough for a mechanical label to be added. Often it wasn't driven by any RP insentive, simply by the mere desire to experience "best of both worlds" without having to deal with the restrains of any of them.

Whether this is good or bad, that is only for the time to tell, and for us to see which sort of impact the change has on the server's mood overall, but perhaps this is a small poke for everyone of us, to take our concepts a bit more seriously and commit to them.

[Zavandar]

Whether this is good or bad, that is only for the time to tell, and for us to see which sort of impact the change has on the server's mood overall, but perhaps this is a small poke for everyone of us, to take our concepts a bit more seriously and commit to them.

[BegoneThoth]

It is, quite literally, a scarlet letter. A tag that does nothing but increase the 'us vs them' mentality that has been creeping in since the removal of the Portal Chamber.

Since then, for example;

• Global teleports, we have dramatically lowered the surface/UD player physical contacts. I am of the opinion that this is a bad thing as explained later.

• Addition of race tags, allowing the identification of an 'other' with no effort. Any elf can always ID a drow regardless of lore, any dwarf can always ID a duergar regardless of lore, any ork can always ID an orog regardless of lore. For those not in the know, without lore an elf can always ID the race of another elf, except Drow, which says nothing, allowing identification by elimination.

• Pirate tags. Anyone who joins the pirates is tagged so all know who is an 'other' at first glance. The higher rank you are, the more easily you are to identify as an 'other' to both surface and UD. Note that lower level characters, the ones that would be rookie pirates, are thus disincentivized from becoming a pirate at all until epics, when they can get the bluff to hide the forced description and can then function without the use of most towns.

• More race gates, separating settlements by race, allowing those who can access areas an easier time to hide out from the 'other' that can not access their area.

• Outcast tag. Further distinction via an artificial tag that allows anyone to identify an 'other' as an intruder or transgressor.

Please note that I am of the opinion that the 'us vs other' leads to a toxic environment as it does almost nothing but force artificial conflict. Since players essentially have almost no reason to travel by foot once an area is 'unlocked' once, there's almost no time at all players hit a crossroads and run into individuals they would likely normally not run across. As such the 'us vs other' and isolationism mentality is further strengthened. More tags does nothing but cement this artificial conflict state as what I believe is a design goal.

I am a huge proponent of conflict and pvp, but I like conflict and pvp to be the result of actual action, player defined factions, and RP. With each of these tags and recent server actions, the influence of player actions is further and further diminished in favor of system-wide hard-coded labels, that I feel add absolutely nothing to RP, and result in only negative player interaction on a wholly artificial scale.

Therefore I am forced to conclude that the intended faction player/enemy dynamic is meant to be a three way one by DM design. Pirates VS Underdark VS Surface, and that is to be the end of it. As more and more updates come, pushing the server into this forced, and frankly, unpleasant, and boring dynamic. I wish this was not the case, but I think that it is.

Looking at the updates from that perspective, I think that is exactly what has happened and what continues to happen, and I will state that I am not a fan.

[CosmicOrderV]

Like many others have said, im not sure this was a move in the right direcrion, but i will say it is at least soundly reasoned. Its not a bad idea, but im not sure this was the right time for it. If this outcast identification was coupled with several other changes, such as neutral settlement additions, improved pirate and slave mechanics, along with more inclusive monster mechanics, then I could have seen this change being useful.

As is with the current environment though, seems more harmful than helpful.

[Hazard]

I believe the change is born from the way the RP has been led.

Outcast was the "easy" way for anyone to enjoy both the perks of the UD, and the perks of the Surface, without having to suffer any of the drawbacks. "I can just go below, and I can just go above, and so long as no one from below sees me above, and no one from above sees me below? I'm everyone's friend." , and while not everyone embraced it as such, it certainly was recurring enough for a mechanical label to be added. Often it wasn't driven by any RP insentive, simply by the mere desire to experience "best of both worlds" without having to deal with the restrains of any of them.

Whether this is good or bad, that is only for the time to tell, and for us to see which sort of impact the change has on the server's mood overall, but perhaps this is a small poke for everyone of us, to take our concepts a bit more seriously and commit to them.

Exactly this, imo.

[MoreThanThree]

I don't know if it was addressed somewhere in this thread, but how does one find out, IC, that an outcast did anything wrong once "outcast tag" gets triggered by a description-check?

[Chair]

Thats the thing mate, you don't! You gotta ask IC or OOCly. Because no one but the player knows unless the player has intentionally spread it. Which feeds into a cycle of knowing they did 'something' or were part of 'something' that did 'something' bad while having 0 idea what that 'something' is.

[MoreThanThree]

Golly anon, it's almost like this was a bad idea in the first place.

[Hazard]

I don't know if it was addressed somewhere in this thread, but how does one find out, IC, that an outcast did anything wrong once "outcast tag" gets triggered by a description-check?

Part of choosing outcast implies that the character was/is already well known enough by the general surface population that they can be outcast in the first place. Your character doesn't necessarily need to know exactly what the character did, only that they are reviled/not trusted.

Maybe your character just assumes they drown puppies in puddles, or snack on babies or something. Maybe your character is totally oblivious or just doesn't care. Either way, most people recognize that this person is the person that no one wants in this town. It's that guy.

[MoreThanThree]

Part of choosing outcast implies that the character was/is already well known enough by the general surface population that they can be outcast in the first place. Your character doesn't necessarily need to know exactly what the character did, only that they are reviled/not trusted.

However, a lore-less check available to any PC at level 3 with 10k with no investment that covers every outcast ever made without regard for that PC's personal history or the wrongs they may have actually done does not feel like it contributes to a positive story creating environment on the server. People will be much more encouraged to act when the label is there for everyone to see, even if the knowledge is known IC and disseminated. Gua

Why then is it OK for every PC citizen up top to know that everyone is an outcast, despite not actually knowing the PC, who they are, what their crimes may be, etc? why does citizenship give you an encyclopedia of the realms Worst Villains - but not let you tell a Drow from an Elf, despite huge bodytype differences, or an Orog from a Half Orc, despite huge bodytype differences - but you could know that Half Orc was hated everywhere on Arelith.... for something?

[Hazard]

Part of choosing outcast implies that the character was/is already well known enough by the general surface population that they can be outcast in the first place. Your character doesn't necessarily need to know exactly what the character did, only that they are reviled/not trusted.

However, a lore-less check available to any PC at level 3 with 10k with no investment that covers every outcast ever made without regard for that PC's personal history or the wrongs they may have actually done does not feel like it contributes to a positive story creating environment on the server. People will be much more encouraged to act when the label is there for everyone to see, even if the knowledge is known IC and disseminated. Gua

Why then is it OK for every PC citizen up top to know that everyone is an outcast, despite not actually knowing the PC, who they are, what their crimes may be, etc? why does citizenship give you an encyclopedia of the realms Worst Villains - but not let you tell a Drow from an Elf, despite huge bodytype differences, or an Orog from a Half Orc, despite huge bodytype differences - but you could know that Half Orc was hated everywhere on Arelith.... for something?

Part of choosing outcast implies that the character was/is already well known enough by the general surface population that they can be outcast in the first place. Your character doesn't necessarily need to know exactly what the character did, only that they are reviled/not trusted.

[Durvayas]

In the middle ages, it was a common form of punishment to brand a man on his cheek so that all who see him would know he was a criminal.

I think it can be implied that something similar is in effect.

[Huelander]

Are we allowed to pretend our level 1 character is Cordor's equivalent of Jack the Ripper. And if not. Then what's the big idea?

The amount of creative agency given to outcast players here is nebulous at best. At present it's like a free pass to write up some epic criminal background story that historically happened on the server but was never RPed out. But I bet if people actually started using it like that, they'd get reprimanded. And also strange looks. Because none of the citizens actually know what they did. I urge Outcast is scrapped and replaced with something that makes sense.

[Gobbo Champion Inc]

That players only know that the pc was an outcast, not the nature of the crime, or cause of it still allows alot of room for roleplay and individual reactions between characters.

There are likely to be a number of unintended consequences from this, like all substantial changes, as well as an increase in pvp until things settle. But most of these will no doubt be sorted going forward, and a new equilebrium will form.

My biggest issue is that while this certainly will force some players to take playing an outcast seriously, and thats not a bad thing, it will also lead to immersion breaking moments where someone is accused of being a monster, with no one being able to name what it is that they have done to deserve such a mantle. So while it forces consequences on outlaw pcs, it does it in a very inorganic, and very awkward way.

[Richørd]

As a surface player I have to admit that this change is a bit ... well ... unfounded?

I understand the functional aspects of the Disguise changes and apreciate the changes to the names of players upon entering Stealth.

But to have every single outcast be automatically recognised as such makes no sense IMHO. Outcasts have plenty of factors against them on the surface which can make them stand out as such.
"Hey , let's go to portal X."
"Oh ... uhm ... I can't."
That in itself already raises eyebrows. Or simply being seen around Andunor by a surfacer visiting the place and then being recognized up on the surface. Or being Vance Gravelle.
Human outcasts do not need to be automatically recognized as such. Rather I would like to see the human outcasts be locked behind a minor reward (at least) so there are in general less of them within the UD but hey, that's a discussion for another thread.

EDIT : Furthermore, can Outcasts currently rent surface properties? If they are so easy to recognize that you'd have to insert a giant (Outcast) in their floaty names then wouldn't surface NPCs also recognize them and refuse to make deals with them?

EDIT 2 : I can maybe see some sense in this change if Outcasts were required to write the reason for their exile from society at the top of their description. Yes, at the top. Some people have very lengthy descriptions.

[Ecthelion]

I don't know if it was addressed somewhere in this thread, but how does one find out, IC, that an outcast did anything wrong once "outcast tag" gets triggered by a description-check?

Part of choosing outcast implies that the character was/is already well known enough by the general surface population that they can be outcast in the first place. Your character doesn't necessarily need to know exactly what the character did, only that they are reviled/not trusted.

Maybe your character just assumes they drown puppies in puddles, or snack on babies or something. Maybe your character is totally oblivious or just doesn't care. Either way, most people recognize that this person is the person that no one wants in this town. It's that guy.

I strongly agree with the first point.
We are, here, absolutely assuming that Outcast actions prior their creation have been made on Arelith, which :
1) Does greatly limit stories.
2) Makes no sense since it was not RPed out.
Then we are assuming that :
3) Everybody knows this person is an outcast.
4) But doesn't know his or her name.
5) And doesn't even know what he or her did.
Thinking there are public notices everywhere is a bit weird, even if we are assuming towns officials are idiotic and do only put the face of the person on it but not his or her name. Besides, it doesn't adress points 1) 2).
Durvayas did offer something at least a bit plausible, but I doubt we are authorized to RP it that way, and besides, it would imply every single outcast actually got caught and marked (Limits the story too).
Basically, what @Huelander said : Am I authorized to create an Outcast, walk in the UD, and tell people how I murdered in cold blood ten people in Cordor, getting caught on the last one, tortured and tourmented under the eye of King Edward, marked as a criminal, and how then I escaped their cells in amazing event (That never did happen) ? I don't think so.

This is absolutely equivalent, to a PC going on murder rampage on the Surface (Or anything an Outcast could have made), my character having zero knowledge about it, and someone PMing me 'You should know this PC is not trustable", and then my character behaving agressivly or w/e because of it.

There is most certainly a problem with the way SOME Outcast are played, but if the answer to that is "Let's metagame them out", well thanks, but no thanks.

Also regarding someone who did say elves were allowed to recognize a drow with lore check by elelimination, I believe doing so is quite the metagaming.

@Richord Outcasts are already not authorized to own property up, with the exception of Sencliff/Sibayad I believe.

[BegoneThoth]

That is a good question. How does someone know I'm an outcast if they don't know my name?

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I believe the implication discussed so far is that all the commoners and NPC's whisper and tell stories about the awful things they know your outcast did, and point and give you dirty looks, and so people figure out what's up.

It seems to me that in this case fiction mirrors reality somewhat in how many social outcasts were treated in older days, with some even being openly mocked and having things thrown at them. Following that vein of logic, it's completely reasonable for someone new to the island to know someone is an outcast by how they are treated by the commoners, and have absolutely no idea what the person did (until someone tells them).

I think that was actually mentioned in the update text.

Edit: I also really like the idea of every outcast character having to do some sort of write-up of what their 'sins' against society were to get them shunned before creation - although I won't go so far as to say they should have to be included in their description. (I wouldn't be against it, but I'm more for the idea of encouraging immersion into these characters by giving them something solid to RP around).

[MoreThanThree]

I believe the implication discussed so far is that all the commoners and NPC's whisper and tell stories about the awful things they know your outcast did, and point and give you dirty looks, and so people figure out what's up.

It seems to me that in this case fiction mirrors reality somewhat in how many social outcasts were treated in older days, with some even being openly mocked and having things thrown at them. Following that vein of logic, it's completely reasonable for someone new to the island to know someone is an outcast by how they are treated by the commoners, and have absolutely no idea what the person did (until someone tells them).

I think that was actually mentioned in the update text.

Invalid, this means everyone already knows everyone else on the island because NPCs and PCs are presumed to talk about them without it having to be RPed