Share the Load: Give other classes some of Rogue's bonuses

[Jack Oat]

Not all of them, but carefully divulge some to other classes with similar skills like Hide/MS/Tumble/etc.

First, give everyone Weapon Finesse because wasting an entire feat to do lower damage and have a few points of AC is cancer.

Second, and more realistically, share things some. Maybe give Assassin the grenade progression and/or extra AB on weapons (but tbh Assassin needs a much deeper buff than just this). Ranger the stealth movement speed or Blinding Speed cooldown, or maybe the detection bonuses. Shadowdancer the Lightly Armored stuff. These are just loose suggestions, nothing set-in-stone.

This isn't a long ranty post by Jack about how broken the game is or w/e, I just think it'd be neat to spread some of the love between other classes. Still let Rogues have all their tools, but share some of the toys in the sandbox.

Thoughts?

[Tarkus the dog]

I think rogues should keep their tools. They are such a clumsy class to play ( god forbid you have to fight a mage in PvP ) and the only thing that separates them from other classes are their unique tools and abilities, in my opinion. If other classes had something similar then rogues would fall under the 'why bother' category. Another thing that is riveting about rogues is that there is literally only one rogue build to play ( with the way light armor and rapier + dagger buffs to rogue works ). This is a pretty lazy design ( or an inconsiderate, at the very least ) considering the whole point of NWN is mixing up different classes and builds. Want to play a dex weaponmaster? 24/6 is better. What about a rogue with monk dip ( quarterstaff / kamas )? 24/6 is again, better. Pretty unimaginative. If you know an actually cool rogue build out there please let me know.

I do, however, think that assassins could use a change which would move them out of the 'literally play a monk or nothing else' situation. I think that the only two assassin builds I would ever play ( if I was forced to play an assassin ) are the monk/assassin with a crossbow ( preferably the drow with their stupid damage light crossbow ) or some weird quarterstaff combo ( again, with monk levels ).

Shadowdancers should probably also be examined. Seriously, is there a single SD out there with a "oh boy, I can't wait to PvP!" mentality? I don't know, maybe I'm obtuse, again, please tell me if there are any SD builds that can make an impact in a PvP situation. I'm saying this because I get that PvE wise they are pretty solid, but say your prayers should you run into literally anyone who didn't spam the recommend button when leveling up their character.

[Disciprine Come From Within]

As someone currently playing a 24/6 I'll actually say that it's done pretty well in rivaling it's main competition which is a 20 Rogue/6 Monk/4 Fighter. It still gets slightly less AC, less general damage, but makes up for it with better DCs to the grenades which are either amazing or pointless (See my Grenade Feedback thread viewtopic.php?f=37&t=22359) and it's been a blast to play, feeling overpowered in some scenarios while still having the rogue style of preparation and avoidance. That being said, I don't think the 24/6 is the best rogue build because the level 24 grenades are very lackluster as they are not party friendly and have lesser effects compared to grenades you get sooner. Tanglefoot Bags and Choking Powder shall remain my closer companions.

The EDodge Dex Weaponmaster suffers more from the fact that it's always been a strange build with barely enough damage in front line and not much more than a focused rogue in surprise attacks. Since there are more ways that before to create sneak attack opportunities, it's easy to see why this build is a shadow of it's former self, and while I feel for it in that way, I don't think that's the worst thing ever.

I actually would like to see the grenades give some love to Rangers and Assassins and think all three classes should stack together for grenade qualifications as they are all "Set Trap" classes and I see the grenades in that way. That being said, I also wouldn't be opposed to unique grenades for each class based on the level requirements met. Assassin could aim for grenades better focused for single targets, other status effects, and maybe even poison, while Ranger I see interesting with hunter grenades that work better on their favored enemies. It would take more work but I think it is some fun food for thought as an alternative.

Shadowdancers, I feel should get something else. I admit they are too defensive without enough offensive options but it needs to be thematically interesting and maybe even involve some FOIG involving the Shadow Plane for some other tricks to get. More and more I think I do like the idea of allowing some classes to get skills in game in some areas in ways that promote RP and I think Shadow Dancers would be a good class to put that into as a test run for the non magics.

As a final note, I think that Blinding Speed needs an alteration and maybe a more focused decoupling from Rogue. As is, I think the cool down is too short with enough Rogue levels. It's almost perma haste per battle and that feels a bit too much like it's stepping on the toes of Barbarian Rage. It doesn't need to be too much longer between uses, but enough that you don't feel you have it for every/every other fight.

[Mr_Rieper]

I could have sworn we had threads a while ago about how Rogue was pointless as anything other than a skill dump. Isn't it a bit risky to want to distribute the extras they've gotten to other classes, with that in mind? They aren't exactly overwhelmingly popular.

[Sea Shanties]

Well, I contributed to another thread about this but I'll echo what I said before since rogue and assassin are favorite classes of mine.

I think the buff assassins need to get is an AB boost from intelligence when using -assassinate (in addition to damage.) Maybe 1/2 of assassin level maxing out at intelligence bonus. I'd also suggest assassin levels combine with rogue when purchasing/using grenades. You're not going to see anyone with 24 levels of assassin (practically, 19 would be absolute top to allow a discipline dump) so assassins with no rogue levels wouldn't be able to get the top tier stuff. They should definitely be able to use choking powder and tanglefoot bags with the same DC as a rogue.

I've written off Shadowdancers past the 5 levels for HIPS. I played both a str and dex based, the str just shouldn't be viable since it's basically "god mode" in PVE making even epic content trivial. It just makes it too easy (though I'm sure terrible in PVP.) I think any fix should remove auto-guard in exchange for more trickery. Easiest suggestions are probably to put shadow evade and shadow daze on short cooldowns so they can be used in every fight.

I don't know that rogues aren't popular- I'm sure they are among hin and other dex races- but if that is the case it's may be because Palemasters and divine fighters are the flavor of the month and rogues had their day for a while after the changes came in. I mean the grenades could potentially be tweaked a bit and I'd make a few quality of life suggestions if anyone was listening (like, give the free dagger feat at level 10 with ANY melee rogue weapon not just rapier/short sword so rogues can use a different one if they prefer something like a hand axe or shortsword on a medium size character.) But I wouldn't say they're in a bad place at all and I'm very grateful for the rework they got last year.

[TimeAdept]

Cap dodge AC bonus so it doesn't exceed what the rogue would get in Cloth
Nerf grenade DC a bit
Remove speed in stealth OR detection bonuses

everything else is pretty OK imo

-

Make assn stack w/ rogue for sword and dagger, and bombs/grenades - possibly even for the Rogue Weapon Attack Bonus
gain 1/3 INT as bonus AB vs the race of the target being assassinated, capped by assn level per -assassinate
Taking Monk on a build that also has Assassin removes Wisdom AC, and instead replaces it with Intelligence AC, capped by assn level per -assassinate (this may be broken, this is just a first thought - monk is already powerful assassin synergy and this may be way over the top, given it removes an entire stat that needs to be invested into to gain the benefits)

-

Give SD the speed-in-stealth bonus
set Shadow Evade and Shadow Daze to CD's
Make the shadow toggleable between a defensive guard like now, and an aggressive shade that no longer guards, makes the shadowdancer always take aggro like PDK Oath, and gives them offensive power removing No Dmg and making them attack focused, letting the SD change aggro mid fights (on a cooldown) and give that real "illusion" aspect of 'who is real, who is doing damage, who is tanking' to play with

-

I think ranger's in a good place and doesn't really need any of the stealth things. You could PONDER giving a very high lvl ranger Keen Senses permanently like rogues but I don't think they need it. Power creep can be real, to be sure.

[Richørd]

Reading people talk about SDs, lol.

No, rogues are not weak.
Weapon finesse for everyone sounds like a bad idea. That would be a buff to some builds that don't need it.
Yes, SD and assassin levels should totally count towards the "bonus speed while sneaking" thing.
Yes, SDs' shadow being a stupidly good tank that can even tank epic level content EZ PZ is wrong.
Rogues should be the only class with access to the grenades and tools. Making a lot of levels into that class really special.

IMHO the biggest issue of Shadowdancers' right now is that they don't feel stealthy enough. Any time you want to apply Shadow Evade or summon your shadow your character shouts it out loud for everyone to hear, including fancy effects like he is some wizard who is about to throw epic spells out there.
Shadow Evade should be a toggleable effect after X amount of levels, giving bonuses to MS and hide.
To counterbalance that one could remove the +1 Hide per CL for SDs.

Idunno. There is a lot of stuff that could be done with SDs.

EDIT : Oh and for the love of god. How come the SDs shadow is literally one of the worst sneaks imaginable? One would assume the freaking thing would just copy it's masters Hide and MS skill. At least after picking up the Epic Shadowlord feat. But it does not do so.
Also why does it not copy it's master's weapon specific AB feats?
And furthermore why are the suggestions still locked I just want to finally make that thread about the SD rework ;_;

[CosmicOrderV]

I can totally see where you and the original poster are coming from with thes points. I'm happy with the update, and it's most welcome, but I do think we should take this point on board when considering future updates.

This was something Irongron said in regards to making sure things 'make sense' in game, specifically PaleMaster AC and how it doesn't make a lot of sense that it's dodge. The emphasis here being that changes ought to preserve the server's integrity. Keep it immersive. Keep it logical.

Rogue shouldn't be the only one who can use grenades. Saying that it ought to be rogue-only in order to give that class a sense of uniqueness, is about as hamfisted as saying that because wizards get scribe scroll, they should be the only one who are allowed to use scrolls. It doesn't make sense.

[Jack Oat]

Weapon finesse for everyone sounds like a bad idea. That would be a buff to some builds that don't need it.

...like what...?

[JubJub]

NWN isn't about making sense. Does it make sense only a fighter, blackguard, Barb etc are the only ones who know how to put on certain helmets, or only orcs know how to wear certain armor? One possible idea is instead of simply giving a class grenades give them a UMD value. The better the greande the higher the UMD needed.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I can totally see where you and the original poster are coming from with thes points. I'm happy with the update, and it's most welcome, but I do think we should take this point on board when considering future updates.

This was something Irongron said in regards to making sure things 'make sense' in game, specifically PaleMaster AC and how it doesn't make a lot of sense that it's dodge. The emphasis here being that changes ought to preserve the server's integrity. Keep it immersive. Keep it logical.

Rogue shouldn't be the only one who can use grenades. Saying that it ought to be rogue-only in order to give that class a sense of uniqueness, is about as hamfisted as saying that because wizards get scribe scroll, they should be the only one who are allowed to use scrolls. It doesn't make sense.

While I agree with this whole overall premise, this is a dangerous door to open, as it re-invites the debate about class-locked skills (which aren't a thing and they should be cross-classable). Everyone swears that universal access to UMD outside of the holy trinity will destroy server balance, though, even though I think it would simply make pure-classing less a case of statistical suicide by analysis.

[Ork]

I can totally see where you and the original poster are coming from with thes points. I'm happy with the update, and it's most welcome, but I do think we should take this point on board when considering future updates.

This was something Irongron said in regards to making sure things 'make sense' in game, specifically PaleMaster AC and how it doesn't make a lot of sense that it's dodge. The emphasis here being that changes ought to preserve the server's integrity. Keep it immersive. Keep it logical.

Rogue shouldn't be the only one who can use grenades. Saying that it ought to be rogue-only in order to give that class a sense of uniqueness, is about as hamfisted as saying that because wizards get scribe scroll, they should be the only one who are allowed to use scrolls. It doesn't make sense.

I disagree with Irongron here. I think that "logical" doesn't validate why an ability should be one way or the other. It would be logical for a cleric to receive smite, as they are also faithful of a patron similar to paladin, but that ability is reserved solely for the paladin class. Why? Classes need unique features that separate themselves from other classes. Grenades on Arelith do that for rogues.

[JubJub]

Ork is right. I think you will open a can of worms if you start the give a class special abilities to sd rangers and such. Because that can then be applied to a lot of stuff. A cleric can summon, a BG can summon, yet a paladin can't even summon a horse. If a priest of a god can summon why can't a holy warrior of a god summon then? Once you open this can of worms then everyone is going to be wanting changes.

[CosmicOrderV]

We're more creative than that! "NWN isn't about making sense," is the same lazy copout as saying, "It's magic" as if it resolves of any need for consistency or explanation. Even magic requires consistency. A universe requires parameters. Once people figure these out, it will "make sense."

Recall the talk about blackguards? Paladins are paragons of their alignment, as you put it. Their holy power is adjacent to a deity, not directly from it. Meanwhile a cleric's power is from their ability to sympathetically discern the will of their god. They're not the same, and their powers manifest differently. This is where we can suspend belief, that because the classes have different themes, they also have different abilities. What's more, if one were to feel like their cleric character should be able to smite, dip paladin! It's not a bad choice for some clerics builds, as it also gets you a discipline source. And that's the sort of concept building I think ought to be encouraged! Mix and match what you want for a story and character, among the presented themes, until it also manifests in a build with mechanics you enjoy.

Paladins summoning a horse, while something they used to be able to do in 3.0, honestly makes no sense, and I'm glad they can't. Blackguards summoning, on the other hand, does make sense, 'cause they're just martial warlocks.

[Jack Oat]

I've read through some of this and I'm concerned that the topic is becoming "Should we give Rogue Grenades to other classes?" So I'll divert this quickly by amending my earlier suggestion/thoughts. I'm with Ork, certain classes can and should have certain, unique abilities. Rogues having grenades is good for them and mitigates a lot of problems with the class otherwise.

Some of their other abilities/bonuses, however, could be dispersed to other classes without sacrificing much. Lightly Armored, extra AB on "Rogue" (or Simple) weapons as it is now, stealth movement speed, and Weapon Finesse for free are main things that I'd like to see shared with other classes. Particularly, going through the list of stuff they get:

1) Lightly Armored given to Rangers and Assassins. This would do well to make DEX Rangers who don't want to dip Monk more viable, but I also understand that they already have their dual-wielding AC. Perhaps give them 1 extra AC for every 6-8 levels, instead of 3, to offset this? As for Assassins, they're a recurring theme in my "List of Things to Buff Please Irongron for the love of God."

2) Extra AB on "Rogue" weapons given to Shadowdancers and, especially, Assassins. Assassins in particular suffer from super low AB and no real way to mitigate this except through standard UMD tactics (not unlike how Rogues once were). Giving them an AB bonus like this would help make them a more viable class. Shadowdancers also suffer from the same low-AB conundrum, but in all honesty the class needs something of a rework to be made more viable in PvE.

3) Stealth Movement Speed given to every class with Hide, Move Silent, and Evasion as class skills/feat, but removed for anyone who does 6+ Monk and reduced by 10% for anyone with 1-5 Monk levels. It's kinda silly that a Ranger can't stalk the woods faster than a casual strolling pace, or a Shadowdancer (who in PnP get the ability to teleport from shadow to shadow) loses out to anyone moving at anything more than a slow walk.

4) Weapon Finesse to Literally Everyone. No, seriously. It makes no sense not to be super dexterous but have to spend an entire feat to learn how to have slightly more AC and much, MUCH less damage than other builds. So little sense, in fact, that they outright make everyone have DEX to AB in 5e. Not only that but DEX builds in 5e get DEX to AC, AB, and damage-- though that isn't what I'm suggesting for Arelith because I don't want a DEX-run meta as much as the next person.

5) Blinding Speed Cooldown decrease to every class with Hide, Move Silent, and Evasion as class skills/feat. Have it work the same in a similar way, removing 1 turn from the CD for every 6 8 levels of said class.

So what do Rogues get to keep for themselves out of this? Grenades (EVERYTHING having to do with Grenades are still a Rogue-only thing), AB out of Stealth, Detection Bonuses (though I wouldn't mind seeing this outright removed to be honest), d8 HD as a class over some of the other "stealth" classes, and Sword & Dagger.

[JubJub]

We're more creative than that! "NWN isn't about making sense," is the same lazy copout as saying, "It's magic" as if it resolves of any need for consistency or explanation. Even magic requires consistency. A universe requires parameters. Once people figure these out, it will "make sense."

Recall the talk about blackguards? Paladins are paragons of their alignment, as you put it. Their holy power is adjacent to a deity, not directly from it. Meanwhile a cleric's power is from their ability to sympathetically discern the will of their god. They're not the same, and their powers manifest differently. This is where we can suspend belief, that because the classes have different themes, they also have different abilities. What's more, if one were to feel like their cleric character should be able to smite, dip paladin! It's not a bad choice for some clerics builds, as it also gets you a discipline source. And that's the sort of concept building I think ought to be encouraged! Mix and match what you want for a story and character, among the presented themes, until it also manifests in a build with mechanics you enjoy.

Paladins summoning a horse, while something they used to be able to do in 3.0, honestly makes no sense, and I'm glad they can't. Blackguards summoning, on the other hand, does make sense, 'cause they're just martial warlocks.

Except they are granted divine powers by their god " paragons of their beliefs, paladins were granted the ability to wield divine magic by deities or similar powers." If they don't stay true to their god they lose their powers, The difference is paladins focus on causes and a priest on devotion. But a if arguments can me made for SD, and such having rogue benefits then the same could be said for clerics/paladins and many other classes. The point I am trying to make is you open this up then you open everything up such as BG being a martial warlock so they should be able to summon, an argument could be made that a paladin is just a more martial/devoted cleric. Could people say wrong of course, but some could also argue for it. So to avoid a lot of this imo it's just best to keep class specific things to those classes.

[Sea Shanties]

Practically speaking I think assassins need to be able to have a temporary AB boost when dealing with their -assassinate target. That's the most needed fix in this thread and what keeps them from being the murderous threat from the shadows that they should be. More goodies would be welcome too of course, especially when it comes to subterfuge (like being able to change to different player head models and hair colors when disguised.) The way the guild works could use an update too.

Sharing some of the rogue goodies may be the easiest way though it would be better to diverge in a way that really sets them apart.

Rangers are one of the stronger classes in the game right now, aren't they? I mean every class could always use a bit of tweaking but they don't seem as much a priority for an update to keep them competitive. If there was work being done I'd rather see a trapper/bounty hunter path develop than make them similar to rogues, again setting them apart.

[RandomhouseAudio]

Weapon finesse to everyone would make sense. If it were up to me though I would suggest revamping weapon finesse entirely and have it be a buy in to allow you to finesse a weapon normally not finessable as it then goes to be an investment into something you normally cant finesse.

Each class should have something that makes them distinct or stand out in some way that makes them mechanically interesting. For the most part most classes have this right now which is sort of nice. (Except dwarven defender which should probably be unracially restricted and totally overhauled but thats a different topic for a different thread)

I think rogue grenades are in a cool place but some of the other benefits could definitely go a long way to helping other classes out in some way that is also mechanically interesting and thematic from an RP perspective.

I do generally agree with Jacks sentiment.

[Tarkus the dog]

There are a few feat starved dex builds that would benefit from getting free weapon finesse.

[Harkath]

I've read through some of this and I'm concerned that the topic is becoming "Should we give Rogue Grenades to other classes?" So I'll divert this quickly by amending my earlier suggestion/thoughts. I'm with Ork, certain classes can and should have certain, unique abilities. Rogues having grenades is good for them and mitigates a lot of problems with the class otherwise.

Some of their other abilities/bonuses, however, could be dispersed to other classes without sacrificing much. Lightly Armored, extra AB on "Rogue" (or Simple) weapons as it is now, stealth movement speed, and Weapon Finesse for free are main things that I'd like to see shared with other classes. Particularly, going through the list of stuff they get:

1) Lightly Armored given to Rangers and Assassins. This would do well to make DEX Rangers who don't want to dip Monk more viable, but I also understand that they already have their dual-wielding AC. Perhaps give them 1 extra AC for every 6-8 levels, instead of 3, to offset this? As for Assassins, they're a recurring theme in my "List of Things to Buff Please Irongron for the love of God."

2) Extra AB on "Rogue" weapons given to Shadowdancers and, especially, Assassins. Assassins in particular suffer from super low AB and no real way to mitigate this except through standard UMD tactics (not unlike how Rogues once were). Giving them an AB bonus like this would help make them a more viable class. Shadowdancers also suffer from the same low-AB conundrum, but in all honesty the class needs something of a rework to be made more viable in PvE.

3) Stealth Movement Speed given to every class with Hide, Move Silent, and Evasion as class skills/feat, but removed for anyone who does 6+ Monk and reduced by 10% for anyone with 1-5 Monk levels. It's kinda silly that a Ranger can't stalk the woods faster than a casual strolling pace, or a Shadowdancer (who in PnP get the ability to teleport from shadow to shadow) loses out to anyone moving at anything more than a slow walk.

4) Weapon Finesse to Literally Everyone. No, seriously. It makes no sense not to be super dexterous but have to spend an entire feat to learn how to have slightly more AC and much, MUCH less damage than other builds. So little sense, in fact, that they outright make everyone have DEX to AB in 5e. Not only that but DEX builds in 5e get DEX to AC, AB, and damage-- though that isn't what I'm suggesting for Arelith because I don't want a DEX-run meta as much as the next person.

5) Blinding Speed Cooldown decrease to every class with Hide, Move Silent, and Evasion as class skills/feat. Have it work the same way, removing 1 turn from the CD for every 6 levels of said class.

So what do Rogues get to keep for themselves out of this? Grenades (EVERYTHING having to do with Grenades are still a Rogue-only thing), AB out of Stealth, Detection Bonuses (though I wouldn't mind seeing this outright removed to be honest), d8 HD as a class over some of the other "stealth" classes, and Sword & Dagger.

I'm a fan of these. Speaking of giving everyone something, how about everyone gets uncanny dodge since the combat engine likes to dump you in not attacking land way the hell more on EE? Also, it might be cool if the grenades counted assassin and SD levels as 'rogue' levels so long as half or more of your total levels were rogue. It'd open up at least a couple more builds.

SD is in a weird spot because having played one, it's really, really good at solo PvE (mostly on the back of the shadow, in places chosen that wont kill it easily) and remarkably bad elsewhere. I've always thought some kind of toggle that disables the summon but buffs the SD might be cool.

[Ork]

I really do like the idea of weapon finesse for everyone. The AB suggestion makes sense primarily because most dex-based stealth classes sacrifice considerable AB.

[Astral]

I've read through some of this and I'm concerned that the topic is becoming "Should we give Rogue Grenades to other classes?" So I'll divert this quickly by amending my earlier suggestion/thoughts. I'm with Ork, certain classes can and should have certain, unique abilities. Rogues having grenades is good for them and mitigates a lot of problems with the class otherwise.

Some of their other abilities/bonuses, however, could be dispersed to other classes without sacrificing much. Lightly Armored, extra AB on "Rogue" (or Simple) weapons as it is now, stealth movement speed, and Weapon Finesse for free are main things that I'd like to see shared with other classes. Particularly, going through the list of stuff they get:

1) Lightly Armored given to Rangers and Assassins. This would do well to make DEX Rangers who don't want to dip Monk more viable, but I also understand that they already have their dual-wielding AC. Perhaps give them 1 extra AC for every 6-8 levels, instead of 3, to offset this? As for Assassins, they're a recurring theme in my "List of Things to Buff Please Irongron for the love of God."

2) Extra AB on "Rogue" weapons given to Shadowdancers and, especially, Assassins. Assassins in particular suffer from super low AB and no real way to mitigate this except through standard UMD tactics (not unlike how Rogues once were). Giving them an AB bonus like this would help make them a more viable class. Shadowdancers also suffer from the same low-AB conundrum, but in all honesty the class needs something of a rework to be made more viable in PvE.

3) Stealth Movement Speed given to every class with Hide, Move Silent, and Evasion as class skills/feat, but removed for anyone who does 6+ Monk and reduced by 10% for anyone with 1-5 Monk levels. It's kinda silly that a Ranger can't stalk the woods faster than a casual strolling pace, or a Shadowdancer (who in PnP get the ability to teleport from shadow to shadow) loses out to anyone moving at anything more than a slow walk.

4) Weapon Finesse to Literally Everyone. No, seriously. It makes no sense not to be super dexterous but have to spend an entire feat to learn how to have slightly more AC and much, MUCH less damage than other builds. So little sense, in fact, that they outright make everyone have DEX to AB in 5e. Not only that but DEX builds in 5e get DEX to AC, AB, and damage-- though that isn't what I'm suggesting for Arelith because I don't want a DEX-run meta as much as the next person.

5) Blinding Speed Cooldown decrease to every class with Hide, Move Silent, and Evasion as class skills/feat. Have it work the same way, removing 1 turn from the CD for every 6 levels of said class.

So what do Rogues get to keep for themselves out of this? Grenades (EVERYTHING having to do with Grenades are still a Rogue-only thing), AB out of Stealth, Detection Bonuses (though I wouldn't mind seeing this outright removed to be honest), d8 HD as a class over some of the other "stealth" classes, and Sword & Dagger.

First of all I love nearly everything here. I think such boons will mostly just open new multiclassing options without making anything overpowered from what I can see so far. Except #5. Because it would mean builds like 20/10 monks (which already have a semi-speedhack) and ranger+rogue or assassin or SD will suddenly have perma-haste.. which is a bit broken. But other than that I really love the ideas here.

[Jack Oat]

First of all I love nearly everything here. I think such boons will mostly just open new multiclassing options without making anything overpowered from what I can see so far. Except #5. Because it would mean builds like 20/10 monks (which already have a semi-speedhack) and ranger+rogue or assassin or SD will suddenly have perma-haste.. which is a bit broken. But other than that I really love the ideas here.

Agreed. I'll amend the post.

[Drowble Oh Seven]

Fully agree on weapon finesse. It always struck me as odd to pay an extra feat to play a dex-based character; given you already sacrifice other aspects of the build with that choice.

I don't know enough about the base classes to comment on how the other suggestions would play out, so nothing from me there.

[JubJub]

I'm confused on the free weapon finesse for all classes. it's a worthless feat for many and simply a free feat for dex people. So basicly its dex folks wanting a free feat.