Share the Load: Give other classes some of Rogue's bonuses

[Drowble Oh Seven]

It's not so much a free feat as it is 'Being able to use DEX to attack' without being penalised a feat compared to strength builds. You already sacrifice damage and carrying capacity in going DEX over strength - which is a reasonable trade off. It's a choice you make as a player. You get AC and eventual access to blinding speed / epic dodge in exchange.

I just don't feel that a build that wants to go down that route should also be a feat down, in addition to those trade offs.

[Jack Oat]

I'm confused on the free weapon finesse for all classes. it's a worthless feat for many and simply a free feat for dex people. So basicly its dex folks wanting a free feat.

What DEX builds give up:
-Carry capacity, including the number of heal kits they can easily carry
-AB, usually 1-9 points depending on the build but a solid average of 4 at least, to grab classes that help mitigate their low...
-...Damage, since their STR mod isn't the highest stat they usually do about 10-16 points of lower damage
-An entire feat (unless Rogue) just to get their DEX to AB

What DEX builds get:
-Usually 3- to 4-ish points of AC over other builds, except if they dip Monk for WIS to AC, or go dedicated Rogue for the Rogue leathers in which case they get about 7-8 points of AC over 1h STR melee builds, so long as they aren't Dual-Wielding.
-An absolute nightmare of a time leveling. While STR builds can kill a mob in early levels with anywhere from 1-3 hits, a DEX build usually has to put out anywhere from 3-7 to accomplish the same. If you only have 1 or 2 APR, that's the difference between 6-18 seconds compared to 18-42 seconds per kill. Some builds that get UMD can mitigate this with GMW scrolls or other sources of extra damage, but STR builds can do the same thing and cut their time down even more drastically.

So yeah, freeing up a feat for DEX builds wouldn't be the end of the world considering how much Suck there is in playing one.

To be honest I'd like to see Heal Kits dropped to 0.1 lbs per kit, as opposed to 0.5, to lighten the load and make carrying them that much less painful, but I'm also not gonna look a gift horse in the mouth since the STR update that increased the encumbrance tolerances.

[Sea Shanties]

Well... The number one reason anyone takes a dex over strength isn't the AC, it's access to stealth. This is a big advantage over strength builds and almost always the reason people choose a dex-based class.

I think the difficulty of leveling is a little oversold here. I suppose a dex-based fighter/WM with no UMD in sight until late epics would be an absolute pain, true, but most others (especially rogues) will have a bag of tricks. Leveling a rogue is very fun and pretty fast if you know what to do, rangers have empathy and summon creature scrolls and companions to help them keep up nicely, etc.

But making weapon finesse a nonissue for everyone would be very very nice and not at all overpowered. I'd love to see that!

[JubJub]

I'm confused on the free weapon finesse for all classes. it's a worthless feat for many and simply a free feat for dex people. So basicly its dex folks wanting a free feat.

What DEX builds give up:
-Carry capacity, including the number of heal kits they can easily carry
-AB, usually 1-9 points depending on the build but a solid average of 4 at least, to grab classes that help mitigate their low...
-...Damage, since their STR mod isn't the highest stat they usually do about 10-16 points of lower damage
-An entire feat (unless Rogue) just to get their DEX to AB

What DEX builds get:
-Usually 3- to 4-ish points of AC over other builds, except if they dip Monk for WIS to AC, or go dedicated Rogue for the Rogue leathers in which case they get about 7-8 points of AC over 1h STR melee builds, so long as they aren't Dual-Wielding.
-An absolute nightmare of a time leveling. While STR builds can kill a mob in early levels with anywhere from 1-3 hits, a DEX build usually has to put out anywhere from 3-7 to accomplish the same. If you only have 1 or 2 APR, that's the difference between 6-18 seconds compared to 18-42 seconds per kill. Some builds that get UMD can mitigate this with GMW scrolls or other sources of extra damage, but STR builds can do the same thing and cut their time down even more drastically.

So yeah, freeing up a feat for DEX builds wouldn't be the end of the world considering how much Suck there is in playing one.

To be honest I'd like to see Heal Kits dropped to 0.1 lbs per kit, as opposed to 0.5, to lighten the load and make carrying them that much less painful, but I'm also not gonna look a gift horse in the mouth since the STR update that increased the encumbrance tolerances.

What do a lot of dex builds get that str builds usually don' stuff like stealth, HIPS, better AC, epic dodge, better sneak attack damage, traps (never underestimate how traps can level the playing field) none of that seems like junk to me. But giving out free feats is just a huge step towards power creep returning. Also its not like many strength builds are swimming in free feats either, many have to struggle to try and fit in IE or power attack etc...

[Might-N-Magic]

I don't know. It's so cringey to see so many posts about giving 3 already very fluffed classes the go ahead to cannibalize the fluff designed to make rogue suck less.

Why bother with rogue then?

[Ork]

Why bother with rogue then?

Grenades. +2 ab out of stealth. Sneak attack. Detection skills. Should I go on?

[CptJonas]

I'm confused on the free weapon finesse for all classes. it's a worthless feat for many and simply a free feat for dex people. So basicly its dex folks wanting a free feat.

Its more like? Do you need to pay extra feat to play STR based character? No...
So its more like...you are at 0...and Dex bases builds are at -1....
And they want to be it 0 for all.....
Did you get it? Or lost me ?

[JubJub]

I have played dex characters, I don't see the disadvantage. HIPS, epic dodge, sneak attacks etc.. They need to pick and choose their feats like everyone else. Sounds like people want to play a dex character like a str character when they need to be taking advantage of being a dex character.

[Astral]

Most of the stuff you list as "reasons dexers dont need free feats" are things you get via takign rogue lvls - which recieve finesse for free already. This thread is about give those boons to classes who only take a rogue dip at the end OR not taking rogue at all, and they DONT get epic dodge, hips, crazy stealth check, etc etc. They get some, but not all or even most of those dex-boons.

[JubJub]

Shouldn't it be encouraged to not give too many bonuses to classes if they are only taken as a dip? It sort of makes rogue pointless if others start getting their bonuses. its like I want to play a rogue and I want to summon a shadow but it's mot fair I have to take a lot Sd lvls to make the shadow worthwhile.

[CosmicOrderV]

I'm still of the persuasion that at least, grenades specifically, either through UMD or Set Trap point requirements, ought to be usable by anyone, while still having rogues be the only ones who can /create/ the grenades. For that matter, it would be also neat to see Epic Traps be craftable by rogues of X level and proper Craft Trap requirement. Maybe just ANY number of rogue levels, plus the proper Craft Trap DC. In this way, Craft Trap might at least be an attractive option. If there are concerns that this could flood the trap market, just make the epic components hard to get / expensive.

Everything else though? Yeah, DEX builds could use a lil more love. And honestly, I could see giving rogues /more/ boons on top of sharing some of their mechanics among other classes. The main issues with rogue is that there are so many ways to hard-counter them. Sneak attack? Just attack the rogue (or be a PM). Not to mention the low AB making it hard to land such sneak attacks on someone simply standing around in improved expertise. Sneakiness? True Sight, not to mention the detector almost always has the advantage from environmental negatives to stealth skills.

STR builds get higher Discipline.
STR builds have more carrying capacity.
STR builds have more reliable damage over time, even more so when crit focused (like say, a Weapon Master or BattleCleric).

That said, I don't think every build needs to have the same strengths. A weapon master hits hard, that's their thing. A rogue gets situational damage and lots of skill points. That's their thing. Therefore I feel like the key to proper balance with this all, is making other skill actually worth investing in. I don't know precisely how to make this happen, but I can spit-ball:

1.) Niche module content that requires 30 UMD and rogue/bard levels.
2.) Niche module content that requires pick-pocketing an npc to get a one-time-use key, for access. Being a DEX based skill, this definitely helps the rogue archetype.
3.) Incrementally increased /whisper detection range, for people with Listen, along with the ability to detect invisible people. Rogues getting natural increases to Listen with their class progression, make this an inevitable boon.
4.) Ability to craft epic traps, as a rogue with high enough Craft Trap.
5.) I personally think Parry could be slightly buffed. Maybe additional damage scaling with rogue levels (like just +1 Damage on a Riposte for each 1d6 of sneak attack you have).
6.) I know this already exists in many places, but more niche module content access with high persuasion. Persuasion could use more love! Maybe also some synergy with bluff, like I've seen suggested. Maybe high enough persuasion allows one to use the pirate smugglers.

[Astral]

Shouldn't it be encouraged to not give too many bonuses to classes if they are only taken as a dip? It sort of makes rogue pointless if others start getting their bonuses. its like I want to play a rogue and I want to summon a shadow but it's mot fair I have to take a lot Sd lvls to make the shadow worthwhile.

I dont know if you notice, but you are actually supporting the OP's idea right now.