Racial Power Creep and the Forgotten Folk-Svirf Edition

[Archnon]

So I know most of you don’t care about the Svirfneblin race. At the moment there are only like 6-7 active RPing svirfs and only like 3-4 in the Grotto. That being said, this is really surprising. The Grotto is one of the best places to play as far as supplies, 6 houses (including a barracks with a prison and a lecture hall) that are race specific, a bounty person, a registry agent, access to the UD and the Surface, a peddler, a cook, a temple supplies person, a printing press, a golem machine, a portal out and in, and empty buildings for a bigger barracks (wardens of the webspinners) and a monastery for monks. Oh and did I mention the boat…. So yeah. I started playing a Svirf because I saw all this opportunity. It is my first successful RP toon (I am the minister of the grotto under Brog rule) though my build is trash. However, the reality is there aren’t really more svirfs. In spite of all this swag, they don’t get played, which brings me to my point.

I think we need to relook at some of the races, life svirfs, and compare them to newer ones. Changes in gear and such have made what it means to be a +2 ECL race very different. Lets look at some examples:

Svirfneblin (2ecl) - -2 overall stats: (-4 CH, -2 Str, +2 Int, +2 Dex), +1 AC, +2 Saves, 32 Spell Resistance, Darkvision, Invisibility (1/day)
Gnoll (1ecl) -0 overall stats: (+str, +con, -int, -cha), 5% immunity, power attack, toughness, warcry (1/day/7levels), darkvision
Orog (2ecl) - +2 overall stats (4str, 2 cha, -2dex, -2 wis), 10% fire and cold immunity, 5% damage, +1AC, power attack.
Ogre (2ecl) - -2 Overall stats including +6 STR, but you can shift them with gifts), +2 AC,
Trog (+1ecl) - 0 Overall, Darkvision, +2AC
Fey (+2ecl) - +4 overall stats, Spell Resistance 16
Duergar (+1ecl) - 0 overall stats, Immunity paralysis, poison, invisibility (1/day)
And the big one:
Drow (2ECL) - +2 Overall Stats (and can shift them), Darkvision, 32 spell resistance, Darkness 1/day, rapid reload

The only ones with -2 stats are Ogre and Svirf, and Ogre gets the +6 Strength (the best the svirf’s get is +2) and 2 AC. Further some of the abilities, like spell resistance have been rendered somewhat pointless. Why take a +2 ecl and a -2 to your stats to get 32 spell resistance when you can get a helment with 26 spell resistance. The Drow and Gnoll stand out as massively powerful when you compare these. The new Yuan-ti class could be included but at least it is +3.

The problem is, when a race is underpowered and isn’t played, then even if you have a nice opportunity for RP it kills it due to lack of interest. And while some of these races require rewards, I always assumed that was to 1.) limit their use and 2.) encourage confidence in RP ability. So the moral of my story is, reconsider some of the ECL’s and races, specifically in areas where the items have made it irrelevant (spell resistance, once a day spells like darkness or invisibility, thanks to wands)

Also, the Grotto is the best spot to play on Arelith and we need more svirfs if we are ever going to orchestrate the proper rebellions and come to dominate both the Earthkin alliance and the Underdark!

[Sea Shanties]

I can remember a time, pre starting gift system when svirfs were considered vastly overpowered and playing a svirf monk was super cheeseball. But that was 13 years ago and the template hasn't really been looked at since except to go from 3 ECL to 2 (which is good.)

But in today's Arelith +2 dex and +2 wis are really only useful to monks (edit- and maybe some rangers!) and OK for druids and healer clerics who aren't that stat dependent anyway. I've always thought they should have a "path of the illusionist" option to get +2 intelligence if nothing else. They're supposed to be master illusionists but build-wise a svirf wizard is very inferior to rock gnomes who (IIRC) can start with like 20 int and 18 constitution. Being able to drop wisdom to have +2 constitution back would be good for rogues and other finesse fighters too.

That may bring in a few svirfs but RP wise they are a difficult race, and people are only so interested in any kind of gnome as it is (I like them and like playing them but have noticed it's really hard to get anyone to take you seriously, even other earthkin.)

RP-wise I kind of wonder if the hypervigilance about non-earthkin in the Grotto ought to be reconsidered, I wonder if that's really healthy RP in the long run if a gnome can't even bring a visiting ally in, at least the Myon elves have that. I don't want to complain about any specific RP of course just the general direction of the community.

[JubJub]

+6 str is nice, but ogres are horrible if you try to find a good class for them. The -4 cha and -4 int are killers. Being ecl 2 you only get a minor gift or you have to take gift of magi to get your cha back and lose some str and dex..

Orog should be 3 ecl imo, they just seem so much more powerful then the other 2 ecl races. Especially when access to racial items are figured in.

[Baseili]

Svirfs always struck me as an odd choice on arelith since their lore describes them as dour, xenophobic loners who prefer to mine out rubies rather than explore and even take a long time befriending a Svirf from another village. Throwing that kind of race into a server that practically forces you to go out and kill things with other people, where the underdark and surface are literal night-and-day in terms of the good/evil split, means any player must essentially ignore what makes the Svirf unique to actually function.
The only exception is when a rare few give in to the gnomish desire to explore.

I've contemplated making a Svirf on a number of occasions particularly a shadowy trader flitting from one dark corner to another, giving in to gnomish curiousity while keeping the distrusting and reclusive nature intact, however it comes across the fatal flaw of needing to advertise what you are doing because players dont seek other players to trade they search for shops, which is entirely contradictory to how a Svirf would act. At that point the core concept falls apart before the thought of stats enters my mind.

Sure tinkering with the +'s and -'s might interest a few powerbuilders but at the end of the day those stats are meant to be a representation of the race's predisposition, both natural and cultural, something that seems to be mostly overwritten by the increasing desire to be ever more effective and optimal on arelith. If the first thought when making a character becomes "what classes will these stats benefit the most?" rather than "what do these stats say about what kind of character I'm making?" then we're basically a warcraft RP server with a D&D flavour.

[Astral]

I can remember a time, pre starting gift system when svirfs were considered vastly overpowered and playing a svirf monk was super cheeseball.

Ah the good ol' days of Svirf monks with Epic Dodge AND Improved Stunning Fist stacks. They used to get more than +2 to dex/wis back then when their ECL was higher but I'm not sure. It's been quite a while.

[CosmicOrderV]

I think the "not taken seriously by others" is just a thematic part of playing a small race. For example as well, no one takes goblins seriously in the underdark. It's just kinda their shtick.

But that being said, I would agree on most other points. At least making it possible to sneak into svirf-town would be a good start.

On the UD side, making those doors check for illusion foci (since gnomes get it for free), rather than race, would be a good start. That way it still clearly favors gnomes, but at least lets in others. Then when it comes to the NPC's that grant access to the next transition, have high enough bluff either through dialogue, or via disguise, be able to grant access to the city. Sort of like with the NPC to the silver mines whom there's a bluff dialogue option to gain access.

Then perhaps adding a +2 INT on top of their +2 WIS and 2+DEX (compared to -4 CHA and -2 STR) would make them mechanically attractive.

Now there's a whole package deal. More RP with others, and slightly better mechanically.

[Archnon]

This all sounds great. And if someone wants to start a Svirf and RP an open grotto policy, I think it would be OOC welcome, though may be resisted IC. The reality of power-gamer vs RP I think needs to be considered though. There are two axis of difficulty in this game, the RP axis and the mechanics axis (which includes PVE and PVP). The reality of a difficult RP situation is that most good players will still welcome it. Pretty much any UD race should be difficult to RP to some extent. I mean, the Drow get their own extensive policy. The Svirf's that play now welcome the challenge of playing a race that is disliked on the surface and in the ud. In fact, the people who choose to play svirf in spite of the lack of bonuses are incredible characters and imho all deserve 40 RPR, another reason everyone should start a Svirf. Antimony, S'mut and Rumbo are all fascinating characters and really doing things for big picture RP. ( I formally exclude myself from this list. I made a Svirf because, honest to God, I saw a lot of open housing and thought it would be fun. I am still a noob) However, even good RP'ers will avoid an overly weakened mechanical character. Why take the increased difficulty of RP, including the mechanical things like not being able to access human merchants and boats, and being harassed in the UD when you get a weakened character anyways.

For the record, there are really easy ways to sneak into the Grotto already. You don't even have to talk to an NPC to get access. ..... As far as making it publicly open, that would have to occur in character and the problem would be that, it basically creates a path from the UD, straight into the heart of Brog territory.

[Sea Shanties]

Svirfs always struck me as an odd choice on arelith since their lore describes them as dour, xenophobic loners who prefer to mine out rubies rather than explore and even take a long time befriending a Svirf from another village. Throwing that kind of race into a server that practically forces you to go out and kill things with other people, where the underdark and surface are literal night-and-day in terms of the good/evil split, means any player must essentially ignore what makes the Svirf unique to actually function.
The only exception is when a rare few give in to the gnomish desire to explore.

Yeah, but the culture here is unique and there are plenty of reasons why a svirf would be a little more adventurous. You have the Grotto svirfs who live under Brog and are used to earthkin passing through their village. They may or may not like it, but they simply can't (ie as a player, don't need to be) be quite as xenophobic as a remote village would. Then there's the Anundor variant where presumably evil svirf outcasts might end up or tinkers, merchants etc-- and the npcs back this up with plenty of tinkers passing through various UD spots and even the Treadstone Locks shipyard built by a company of deep gnomes.

Not that they'd commonly be fearless and outgoing or anything but there's plenty of backing in place for a PC svirf to adventure and mingle more than a typical member of their race. The same goes for quite a few other playable races though maybe they aren't quite as extreme.

On the other points- I'm not really pushing for the Grotto to be open to all but I know in the past rock gnome players have gotten disgruntled quickly by being vilified if they brought a non-earthkin friend in. Maybe the point is best left dropped because I don't want to start a discussion of specific RP. Mostly I'd just like to see a "drop +2 wis for +2 int" minor gift for the illusionists, then maybe I'd play one of those again.

[xanrael]

Put me in the "they're fine" camp. Maybe add a minor gift to move a stat around, though I think there are a ton of races that could reasonably benefit from that. Their +2 to universal saves shouldn't be discounted as in many ways it is equal to +2 stat and is very helpful (especially as a svirf paladin/BG is not in the cards with the -4 cha).

I don't think the Grotto needs to be a hub for players either. You have access to much of the server and I haven't found an issue with finding RP opportunities on the two deep gnome characters I've played recently. You'll get some in the Grotto and the rest as you move through other higher traffic areas. The Grotto is closer to "The Sharps" than "Andunor" as an example and I think that makes sense.

Edit: I'll add that for me part of the reason I made my 2 deep gnomes somewhat recently was because I liked the "feel" of the area. I would have picked a different race had I wanted a different RP experience.

[Ascheriit]

As someone who currently plays a svirf, here are my two cents.

A stats change of sorts would help in maybe seeing a wider variety of classes, but I don't think making them more powerful would cause a great change in the player count. If it did, I don't know if it would attract the kind truly interested in rping svirfs instead of those wishing to play them solely for their power.

As a newer svirf player (started mine a few months after EE release) I have found my self often struggling more with inability to find people to learn about the supposedly great events/rp of svirf past (gnome spriggan war, etc.), but still able to suffer consequences from actions of theirs like a certain agreement with brog. This will probably clear up over time if more people show up, older svirf players come back, or lore books/documents/npcs are introduced.

Aside from that the final issue I noticed is that the svirf (and in general gnome) themed areas don't have a ton of diversity. Their racial areas consist heavily of tinker labs and little else. Taking the grotto for example, there are two separate labs in there, six quarters (which players needs to turn into other functions to add more diversity to the place which is a noble thing to do, but shouldn't be necessary), and a subset of npc merchants that still require you to go to the golden hall for most normal functions (no speedy messengers, but hey it has a crier shouting messages from every other city)

[Ironfoot]

Regarding mechanics only a thing towards pp to nake their mages could be ok, maybe enchanting as bonus dunno but aye that wouldnt bring players there are several good roles that racial trait of svirfs can fit in greatly.

Thing is thats svirf had an epic voyage from evil svirfs of Grond to now more canonical neutra-good ones. Seeing evil svirf rise my hairs at my back even as that is totally legit but in that case story of how one villager turned to something vile as such would be epic to listen and interact with. None other race had RP with DEV work outcome as svirfneblims did, and each phase of their develop had lots and lots of great RP behind it. I played many races but no one did anything like it on server.

To me as svirf player i see entire server as their playground while some races must think twice svirfs do not, with recent change of mechanism to outcast humans they are now by best choice for trader rp between surface and ud. Their xenophobia is burden to rp but there are ways to work around it either as illusionist to make a copy of yourself and be more "brave" or use HiPs or if warrior that divine hammer for courage, if nothing works you have the racial invisibility that fits the shoes.

Issue i see with Grotto is how rock gnomes/paupers been treated, over several years none rock gnome actually "fit in", players i spoke with said simply its not rock gnome place, they are not cave people also like open trade.
Not to mentiom Tungston turret drain rock gnomes and even svirfs from other areas. I think some refocus or connection between those centers would be great but i guess that depends on players to RP it out. There is also svirf and svirf building in Port of Andunor that could enhance that trade-rp that i belive could bring RP to server and svirf role with maybe stall or two.

As for lore and some minor updates Irongorn approved some changes right on that subject month ago and i am sure they will be adressesd once Staff has time to do it. Its up to us to use this time to RP some things they might consider to involve in that additonaly.

Idea of Grotto is to function for many different kind of ro that is what players like at that moment so we must look at it from that perspective and not of subjective path of our current RP.

This is my subjective opinion, as always i mught be wrong. Its nice to see several new interesting svirfs of late, maybe this thread had impact on it who knows.

Cheers!

[Might-N-Magic]

I think svirfs are just fine as they are. The stats are very solid, being one of the few races with +Wis, not to mention the +2 Hide, +2 Uni saves and +1 AC giving them quite an edge over the similar drow race.

Two powerful bonuses are seemingly glossed over in this thread. Small Stature is a sweet perk for any Dex build. +1 to their AB, AC and +4 to Hide is fantastic for finesse and sneaky builds. The other very nice perk is simply that you are a svirfneblin, a generally accepted and non-evil race. You can work within underdark society and surfacer society as you like and prefer and no one bats an eye or cares because Arelith Underdark lore has generally been murdered.

Opportunity and freedom are powerful and giant bonuses in a roleplay game. No drow or ogre is going to saunter around the surface openly or in and out of Cordor or Bendir unchallenged, but svirfs can operate freely as they please so long as they individually don't get a reputation for evil actions or crime they've committed personally.

[Arienette]

My 2 cents.

Say im a new Arelither. Been here a few months, experimented with a few chars.

How am i supposed to even know there is a "Grotto" and deep gnome RP community?

I literally learned that such a thing exists like 2 days ago in an OOC conversation.

[Sea Shanties]

My 2 cents.

Say im a new Arelither. Been here a few months, experimented with a few chars.

How am i supposed to even know there is a "Grotto" and deep gnome RP community?

I literally learned that such a thing exists like 2 days ago in an OOC conversation.

I've been playing for years including a stint in high school in the 00s and I'm still learning of new communities and areas. Embrace it, the fact that there are still surprises for long term players is a feature not a problem.

But the Grotto is the starting location for any gnome who chooses Brogdenstein, if you're wondering how to access it.

And I'll agree that they are basically fine but still echo the illusionists could use a +2 intelligence minor gift, being the signature svirf class and all.

[Ascheriit]

I support the gift of the illusionist idea, maybe make it swappable for wisdom bonus they get and make it a +0 ecl. Otherwise they enjoy a fairly important soft power with their ability to go anywhere across most of the server without too much difficulty. (Though this also leads to the population not being centralized in the grotto too.)

[Archnon]

As far as traveling anywhere, it can be a benefit but it plays out in tow ways. First, most player characters, with which a great deal of your interaction will be, are open to Svirfs, on both the surface and un the UD. This is nice, but honestly not that different from many other races. I am not sure that the average player who met a Trog or Kobold outside of a town on the surface would jump to kill it for fear of violation of be nice pvp rules, even after aggressive hostile rp. Same is true for humans or even elves in UD, though, i think the lore would tell it differently, which brings me to my second point.

The other half of the coin is NPC's, which are programmed according to the actual lore. I keep my svirf in Brog territory and UD, per racial history and all that FR lore jazz, but I cannot even get the human with the boat to wharf town in Brog to take me on the boat. They call me a monster and send me off on my way. Same is true for caravans near Arcane tower and other groups. So it is not limitless access. I have no idea how Cordor would respond to a svirf and I doubt one has gone there and the UD NPC's have nice snarky things to say to you.

My 2 cents.

Say im a new Arelither. Been here a few months, experimented with a few chars.

How am i supposed to even know there is a "Grotto" and deep gnome RP community?

I literally learned that such a thing exists like 2 days ago in an OOC conversation.

Start a Svirf, find Radoc and he will show you around

And also, i have only been playinng this for like 3 months too. I stumbled into the Grotto and really liked the feel. Had to get others to show my Andunor... Never seen Myon before in any character. Many don't know Skal. The map is actually pretty big and hard to navigate but starting with a specific racial community, like Svirf can give you an anchor.

[Ironfoot]

From what i seen out of this talk +2 int for -2 wisdom if that gift is taken, thats what everyone agree here it seems, the rest can be achived with RP. I dont know is this thread but seems many new svirf characters are around since it was made. Kudos ppl to making this thread constructive.

As for server, i play here 10 years almost, still never visited Myon even as i RPed with many of their leaders icly, rude elves never invite.