Monk - Different Weapons, balancing

[Twily]

Here's an approximated run down of the advantages and disadvantages to each monk weapon in different situations.


Feedback on the weapons/Observations:

Katana is left behind still, it doesn't really have an area where it shines above an alternative, when held by a character with 16 monk levels or more*.
*Because 16 is where unarmed damage becomes 1d20, and all free monk feats after 16 give both unarmed and katana boosts at the exact same time

Dual Wield:
-Flurry+DualKama beats DualKatana in every situation, it also falls off less than DualKatana against crit immune enemies due to less of its damage being sourced from crits.
-Quarterstaff is the best dual wield option against mid-high AC enemies, by a significant amount
Single Wield:
-Unarmed is always the best when compared to wielding any single weapons and is less crit reliant(A single Katana and Kama both fall off even steeper against crit immune foes and more mobs on Arelith have resistances to it).


What I'd suggest:
-Don't give WF/EWF Unarmed for free. (only EWF is free at the moment I think?)
Monks have enough goodies as is, and having to spend these two feats would give katana their golden zone.
They're worse than unarmed, but they'd be cheaper to get.
Having to spend one pre-epic feat isn't enough to make up for how much better unarmed is.

It's a better damage type, less crit reliant, has higher dps even when crits are factored in, has a free +5 DR pierce, you can always activate flurry of blows against low AC enemies to get even more damage, and you can use stunning fist. Thanks to the new Disciples gloves, you don't even miss out on stats on your gear due to the glove slot being used.

OR

Remove the +2wis granted by the disciple's gloves. The loss in a gear slot to get 2 stat enchantments would add a reason to go katana.

OR

Add a monk based katana. I remember seeing mention of a wakizashi in the update thread, but any mention of it has vanished now.

It'd be hard to do this without invalidating another weapon though:
The best approach here would probably be going for crit based(Keen/MassiveCrits), as this would fall off sharply against higher AC enemies and leave unarmed the better choice, with a single katana being better against low AC enemies.

(Or the other way around- reduced damage from a mastery damask, but higher AB, meaning it'd be weaker against low AC enemies but stronger against higher AC; but not high enough to make dual katana better than QStaff)

If the devs do decide to do this and want a chart with the theoretical weapon's stats just send me a PM.

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Sorry for two red lines, that's the apps fault. The top one on the chart is Kama DualFlurry, the bottom one is Unarmed

The app I used doesn't let the chart go above 50 AC, so I lowered the AB to compensate for this. The ABs I inputted into the app are listed below, but for those who don't want to read, it's aproximately 20 points off. (IE, 21 AC on the bottom row is actually more like 41AC)
If my chart theoretically did go higher and I inputted the actual AB, the curves and intersections of the lines would be identical to what's displayed here, only slid over 20 points to the right.



I've used the same relative AB for all of these(since the app I used doesn't chart above 50 AC), so the actual damage per round by AC is incorrect; of larger note though is the curves, as they show what weapon are statistically superior to which in what situation, and these are still correct.

If your AB is 47 and if the chart says WeaponA with 25 AB starts being better than another option once you pass 24 AC, add on 22(25+22=47), meaning it's actually against 46AC that it starts being better.


They are all calculated around:
-Dex Based (14 str)
-Pure L30 Monk, thus having WF, EWF, WS, EWS, ImpCrit

-Minor variations such as drinking a str pot or having higher/lower base Str aren't going to drastically effect the curves. Large variations could(such as being StrBased).

Unarmed:
AB: 25/22/19/16/13
Damage: 1d20+6(EWS)+2(str)+6(DisciplesGloves)+4(PermEssence)+1d6(TempEssence)+5(MonkDamage)
Crit: 19-20/x2

Unarmed: if rune is used on +1d4
AB: 25/22/19/16/13
Damage: 1d20+6(EWS)+2(str)+6(DisciplesGloves)+4(PermEssence)+1d6(TempEssence)+5(MonkDamage)+1d4(Runic)
Crit: 19-20/x2

Katana: -twohand
AB: 25/22/19/16/13
Damage: 1d10+6(EWS)+3(str)+6(MasteryDamask)+4(PermEssence)+1d6(TempEssence)+5(MonkDamage)
Crit: 17-20/x2

Katana: Dual Wield
AB: 23/20/17/14/11/23/18
MainHandDamage: 1d10+6(EWS)+2(str)+6(MasteryDamask)+4(PermEssence)+1d6(TempEssence)+5(MonkDamage)
OffHandDamage: 1d10+6(EWS)+1(str)+6(MasteryDamask)+4(PermEssence)+1d6(TempEssence)+5(MonkDamage)
Crit: 17-20/x2

Quarterstaff:
AB: 25/22/19/16/13/25/20
MainHandDamage: 1d6+6(EWS)+2(str)+6(MasteryDamask)+4(PermEssence)+1d6(TempEssence)+5(MonkDamage)
OffHandDamage: 1d20+6(EWS)+1(str)+6(MasteryDamask)+4(PermEssence)+1d6(TempEssence)+5(MonkDamage)
Crit: 19-20/x2

Disciples Kama: Single
AB: 26/23/20/17/14
MainHandDamage: 1d6+6(EWS)+2(str)+7(DisciplesKama)+4(PermEssence)+1d6(TempEssence)+5(MonkDamage)
Crit: 18-20/x2

Disciples Kama: Dual Wield (the upper red)
AB: 24/21/18/15/12/24/19
MainHandDamage: 1d6+6(EWS)+2(str)+7(DisciplesKama)+4(PermEssence)+1d6(TempEssence)+5(MonkDamage)
OffHandDamage: 1d6+6(EWS)+1(str)+7(DisciplesKama)+4(PermEssence)+1d6(TempEssence)+5(MonkDamage)
Crit: 18-20/x2

[Jagel]

I don’t get the whole numbersnumbers thing but I cannot for the life of me understand how a 1d10 19-20x2 is worse than 1d6 x2. Care to explain it for dummies?

[TimeAdept]

They are all calculated around:
-Dex Based (14 str)
-Pure L30 Monk,

here's your problem, make a 2h STR monk 20 rogue3 wm 7 and get back to me, you can't ignore an entire character archetype or multiclassing when you discuss weapons.

kamas are worse because they're tiny and flurrying means you're -4/-4 to everything - something that doesn't matter when you're looking at this chart and 90% of it is dealing with enemies that have sub 40 AC.

quarterstaff is better because it's a better damage type, and a large weapon, because you dual wield at +0/+0 on a weapon you can disarm with, have a much much harder time being disarmed while holding, and don't need to get 2 of or enchant 2 of to use at top effectiveness.

2handing Katana is fantastic because you're a WM that now has monk AB progression, meaning hasted your opening flurry is 3 attacks that are now 0/-3/-6, instead of likely a 2 hit opening flurry of 0/-5, or a TWF hasted opening flurry of 0/-5/-10. This is a really big deal when your opening attacks are likely the ones you're going to be trying to KD off of, so squeezing every AB out of them is more important than the raw damage you're dealing on the hit. You are unfortunately still wielding a Small weapon here for disarm purposes, but eh, we'll all live.

Everyone should be ignoring that chart below 40-45 AC because everything below 40 AC is irrelevant. Extrapolate that chart from 40 AC onward, blow it up for fine detail, show the actual numbers, and that's the stats you should actually care about, along with the above discussions on the non-numerical advantages and disadvantages of weapontypes. Realtalk.

(But also, LMAO, a monk just gets all of this for free, so why choose? Seriously, why does monk have this much going for it. Sucks to be a fighter these days - the class that actually sort of makes sense to have these sort of "weapon group" feats applied... instead monk has every fighter feat for free on top of all the monk stuff on top of more AB, AC, immunities, etc....)

(EDIT: Finally, there's the truest meme: the new Katana has a parrying bonus, so just 2 hand a katana, rock STR parry, and laugh all the way to the bank with Riposte AB and damage.)

[Twily]

@Jagel:
The best Katana is +3AB, +6 Damage
The best Kama is +4 AB, +7 Damage, Keen

This means after the ImpCrit feat is added:

Katana:
1d10 17-20x2
Kama:
1d6 18-20x2, only with an extra +1 AB/Damage
The extra AB and Damage from kama is enough to beat the katana once AC gets to the point threat rolls start failing more often.

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@TimeAdept
I'll make my disclaimer bigger and rephrase it, but as I stated in my original post the app I used doesn't go above 50 AC.
I lowered AB by approximately 20 to compensate for this: So while one might normally have something like 45/42/39/36/33 AB, I actually inputted 25/22/19/16/13 into the app.
This means the AC is that much lower.

So for example, While the chart says Flurry Of Blows with Dual Kama is better against enemies below 26AC, This is actually 46AC, give or take a few points depending on the persons AB.
This does NOT affect the outcome of the chart though, every AB lower just slides everything one step to the left, every AB higher slides things one step to the right.


As far as making a strength based Monk20/Rogue3/WM7, Sure. I'll make one, punch in the numbers, and post a followup chart.

[TimeAdept]

I really think your over-reliance on a line on a graph is missing the forest for the trees here.

[Astral]

What I'd suggest:
-Don't give WF/EWF Unarmed for free. (only EWF is free at the moment I think?)
Monks have enough goodies as is, and having to spend these two feats would give katana their golden zone.
They're worse than unarmed, but they'd be cheaper to get.
Having to spend one pre-epic feat isn't enough to make up for how much better unarmed is.

I read the patch notes.. and maybe I'm missing something.. but it seems to like the only free feats for unarmed are WS and EWS. unarmed doesnt get WF, EWF and IC for free as I understand it. So Unarmed is definitely not as 'free' as katana.

As for the viability of Katanas. They are meant to be used two-handed on str monks, not on dex monks with dual-wield. Dex monks with dual-wield still want kamas or QS. in fact, I think Katana's main niche is out to be two-handed on str monks.

[Harkath]

The str-katana (and katana WM) folks are right. Critting on a 13 with 7 APR + Whirlwind is very tasty. That's its niche.

[Ebonstar]

The str-katana (and katana WM) folks are right. Critting on a 13 with 7 APR + Whirlwind is very tasty. That's its niche.

14 is max crit range with katana unless that changed too

[Harkath]

Max Crit range with keen, Imp crit, and WM is 10-20 for 18-20 stuff, 13-20 for 19-20, and 16-20 for on-20 only.

[Zavandar]

your weapons aren't keen'd in that dps chart.

[yellowcateyes]

Here's an approximated run down of the advantages and disadvantages to each monk weapon in different situations.

Thank you for the detailed feedback and numbers. I agree with your analysis on a few points.

First, that quarterstaff remains the best dual-wielding choice against mid-high AC opponents. The +2 AB bonus from wielding a two-handed weapon is a significant one. The special kama was actually created with this fact in mind - giving monks another dual-wield option that can at least compete with quarterstaff and, in some ranges, do more damage.

I also agree that, for a DEX-based monk that is not dual-wielding, fist-fighting is the best option. High average base damage combined with the utility of the new gloves means that fighting unarmed is better for a higher-level DEX monk than using a single weapon. And that is before accounting for DR penetration and the option of using stun fists against opponents that might be vulnerable to it.

In a way, this is thematic progression. Fist damage dice improves with monk levels, so an novice monk will be better off using weaponry - even if it is a simple club or a stick. In higher levels, the monk has mastered using his body as a weapon.

( Credit of the idea of weapon progression for monks actually goes to Irongron, whose personal input was what led to monks unlocking feats for certain weapons during the course of their training. )


All that said, it's worth noting that the analysis here is limited to DEX monks with a +2 STR stat. Katana indeed falls short as a weapon for that archetype, both when dual-wielded or when wielded alone. It is best when it is magnifying damage for those monks that choose to go STR, as -twohand bonuses plus increased crit ranges benefits STR characters most of all.

[TimeAdept]

I still think it's a pretty big kick in the teeth to

1: Give them spec and epic spec in *everything* for free, again decreasing the utility of Fighter as a class and reducing the only "unique" trait it has, which is spending 2 of its feats, one epic one pre epic, on the Specialization line
2: Give it to them in *all* the weapons, reducing the choice in builds and homogenizing monks to one of a couple varieties that can swap between each other near seamlessly
3: Giving Ki Strike 5 for free, making every monk have +5 hands for free, again decreasing the utility of epic fighter bonus, and making yet another class with inherent +5 (and pre epic, even)

This feels like it was overwrought and a push too far in the opposite direction in an attempt to buff the class and also make up for the loss of kiting. The Unarmed and Weapon stuff should have been split apart into 2 paths: Sohei and Martial Artist, rather than conglomerated into one giant feat-monster of a class that removes build variability and choice, making every monk excel in everything by virtue of existing. All dex monks should always take twf feats, always always, because every other feat is free and you open up the ability to two hand, single hand, or TWF across 5 different weapon types at the drop of a hat.

[CptJonas]

I still think it's a pretty big kick in the teeth to

1: Give them spec and epic spec in *everything* for free, again decreasing the utility of Fighter as a class and reducing the only "unique" trait it has, which is spending 2 of its feats, one epic one pre epic, on the Specialization line
2: Give it to them in *all* the weapons, reducing the choice in builds and homogenizing monks to one of a couple varieties that can swap between each other near seamlessly
3: Giving Ki Strike 5 for free, making every monk have +5 hands for free, again decreasing the utility of epic fighter bonus, and making yet another class with inherent +5 (and pre epic, even)

This feels like it was overwrought and a push too far in the opposite direction in an attempt to buff the class and also make up for the loss of kiting. The Unarmed and Weapon stuff should have been split apart into 2 paths: Sohei and Martial Artist, rather than conglomerated into one giant feat-monster of a class that removes build variability and choice, making every monk excel in everything by virtue of existing. All dex monks should always take twf feats, always always, because every other feat is free and you open up the ability to two hand, single hand, or TWF across 5 different weapon types at the drop of a hat.

Dont take it too far man...its still monk withow monk speed......with all important bonuses at 28.....I will tell you this....I am monk lover...I loved them even before it was cool I love these changes (even tho by my opinion they could be handled differently)....

And even after all of this....In the end...I would not create pure monk if not for having like 4 kensai monks waiting for me.....
Even with all of those bonuses...you are still fighter with less ab, less damage, more AC, Imunity to magic.....thats all....And no UMD, no spells, no buffs....Its not godly...its....workable....

[Astral]

I still think it's a pretty big kick in the teeth to

1: Give them spec and epic spec in *everything* for free, again decreasing the utility of Fighter as a class and reducing the only "unique" trait it has, which is spending 2 of its feats, one epic one pre epic, on the Specialization line
2: Give it to them in *all* the weapons, reducing the choice in builds and homogenizing monks to one of a couple varieties that can swap between each other near seamlessly
3: Giving Ki Strike 5 for free, making every monk have +5 hands for free, again decreasing the utility of epic fighter bonus, and making yet another class with inherent +5 (and pre epic, even)

This feels like it was overwrought and a push too far in the opposite direction in an attempt to buff the class and also make up for the loss of kiting. The Unarmed and Weapon stuff should have been split apart into 2 paths: Sohei and Martial Artist, rather than conglomerated into one giant feat-monster of a class that removes build variability and choice, making every monk excel in everything by virtue of existing. All dex monks should always take twf feats, always always, because every other feat is free and you open up the ability to two hand, single hand, or TWF across 5 different weapon types at the drop of a hat.

But 30 fighter also has +5 vs dr, way more feats than you know what to do with, +3 soft str, bonus to discipline and +9 ac.

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

I just thing you should ge tthe exotic weapon feat earlier, Katana is fine at 16, But for RP sake,The exotic feat should go as low as 5.
Further, Shurikans seem overlooked till ....later.

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

I just thing you should ge tthe exotic weapon feat earlier, Katana is fine at 16, But for RP sake,The exotic feat should go as low as 5.
Further, Shurikans seem overlooked till ....later.

[Astral]

Shurikens should count str mod like other throwing weapons and/or enabled to make in bundles like other ammunition. Basically make shurikens like darts but maybe slightly weaker for balance's sake - only bronze shuriken bundles for example.

[Cortex]

Giving them shuriken weapon foci might be wayyy too much. They already have a lot of melee versatility, no need to give them ranged versatility too.

[Opustus]

Dunno if this belongs here, but what's the stance on katana Monk/Spellsword? Since kama UBAB progression was banned from Spellsword due to balance reasons, am I right to assume katana will get the same treatment? Or is that already the case?

[yellowcateyes]

Dunno if this belongs here, but what's the stance on katana Monk/Spellsword? Since kama UBAB progression was banned from Spellsword due to balance reasons, am I right to assume katana will get the same treatment? Or is that already the case?

As with Kama, using a Katana (or Club) prevents a Spellsword with monk levels from benefiting from empty off-hand AC.

[Opustus]

Thanks for clearing that up!

[TimeAdept]

I still think it's a pretty big kick in the teeth to

1: Give them spec and epic spec in *everything* for free, again decreasing the utility of Fighter as a class and reducing the only "unique" trait it has, which is spending 2 of its feats, one epic one pre epic, on the Specialization line
2: Give it to them in *all* the weapons, reducing the choice in builds and homogenizing monks to one of a couple varieties that can swap between each other near seamlessly
3: Giving Ki Strike 5 for free, making every monk have +5 hands for free, again decreasing the utility of epic fighter bonus, and making yet another class with inherent +5 (and pre epic, even)

This feels like it was overwrought and a push too far in the opposite direction in an attempt to buff the class and also make up for the loss of kiting. The Unarmed and Weapon stuff should have been split apart into 2 paths: Sohei and Martial Artist, rather than conglomerated into one giant feat-monster of a class that removes build variability and choice, making every monk excel in everything by virtue of existing. All dex monks should always take twf feats, always always, because every other feat is free and you open up the ability to two hand, single hand, or TWF across 5 different weapon types at the drop of a hat.

But 30 fighter also has +5 vs dr, way more feats than you know what to do with, +3 soft str, bonus to discipline and +9 ac.

The feats a fighter takes are the feats a monk gets for free: Knockdown, Improved Knockdown, Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Spec, Improved Critical. The monk also gets them in 5 different weapons as opposed to just one weapon, which means unlike the fighter they can choose one of any of their weapon styles to use at any given moment. The only things a dex 30 monk really needs to take now are as follows:

1: Weapon finesse/Expertise
3: Imp Expertise
6: TWF
9: Ambidex
12: Imp TWF
15: Blindfight
18: WF Unarmed
21: Armor Skin
24: ESF discipline
27: Epic Prowess

There is no reason to do anything else on a higher end DEX monk build. STR will drop finesse and the TWF feats and probably pick up saves instead, and maybe called shot.

30 and the 2 monk feats at 25/30 are open, but are best spent on either improved SR, or Epic Energy Resist Acid to remove Acid Sheathe as a threat. There is no other build to bother with as a dex monk, this allows you to use all of your weapons swappingg back and forth at any time, be it twohanding a katana, going unarmed, single kama, double kama, or quarterstaff. You do this while having every single combat feat at any given weapon, something a fighter cannot do without sacrificing other core feats, or sacrificing saves, something a monk has all favored saves in, but now also has +5 BAB, making them effective a full BAB class. They also have +5 ki strike giving them DR piercing in unarmed, for no investment, by level 20 - a full 5 levels earlier than a fighter does. The only thing a fighter has going for it now is the increased AC on items, which is admittedly a nice perk, but unless pure, is repllicated by epic mage armor, barkskin, shield of faith, and magic vestment. Everything else the high fighter does has been completely subsumed by monk/rogue/assassin/ranger/paladin now, outside of that. Keep in mind the Monk is also getting Uncanny Dodge, Blinding Speed, and Epic Dodge for free, the latter two being epic feats that dex builds need to fit slots for, often using the rogue bonus feat list or having to decide between basic numbers increases, and blinding speed.

Don't get me wrong, I agree the class needed a buff. I just think all of it at the same time was a little much. It's homogenized builds to the point where there's no choices to be made anymore, especially for dex monks. With STR monks your option is pretty much pure or 27/3 unarmed, or 20/3/7 WM with katana, since it twohands a katana but still gets AC equivalent toa sword and shield WM.

[Astral]

30 dex monk has far less damage than a str 30 fighter, still less feats (the fighter can fully master 2 different weapons and still have enough feats for saves and even dweamocrafting), comparable ac due to fighter getting +9 ac. I could go on but I feel like I'd repeat my previous replay.

Also, I still think 20/10 or 2/5/5 are the best choice for a dex monk, as they can actually get epic dodge + umd just as before. shenanigans like 27/3 are terrible and they dont get epic dodge, epic spec and imp crit. So we're back to ground zero where pure monks who DO get all these things but dont get UMD are quite comparable to pure fighters. Fighters get more damage OR more ac (depending if its str or dex monk), they still get a lot more feats than monks and it comes as a trade for the monk immunity most will checks, out of haste movement speed, and cookies (most of these cookies are comparable to mundane stuff accessible to fighters, such as a dust of disappearance, restoration, heal potions etc)

[Archnon]

This seems to be the place to post general monk feedback on the forums so I wanted to post two things that are monk related but not necessarily weapons related.

1.) The Wholeness of body is really really powerful. Think about it, a +4 to wisdom (easy with gear alone) an owls potion and a level 30 monk and you are healing 120 points. Plus the full restoration is incredible at low levels because it can be used to counteract anything from poison to, more importantly, level drain effects. This may actually be too powerful and may need a cap at some point.

2.) The pure 30 monk build is awesome and I think it can even survive the UMD deficit, except for one thing and that is sight. Unless you are a darkvision class, the lack of access to ultravision can kind of be rough from a pure gameplay perspective. I know there are necklaces and things that grant that if you find them, but it would be nice if those glowing eyes came with a bonus to visual range or sight too. Just a thought.

[Astral]

This seems to be the place to post general monk feedback on the forums so I wanted to post two things that are monk related but not necessarily weapons related.

1.) The Wholeness of body is really really powerful. Think about it, a +4 to wisdom (easy with gear alone) an owls potion and a level 30 monk and you are healing 120 points. Plus the full restoration is incredible at low levels because it can be used to counteract anything from poison to, more importantly, level drain effects. This may actually be too powerful and may need a cap at some point.

2.) The pure 30 monk build is awesome and I think it can even survive the UMD deficit, except for one thing and that is sight. Unless you are a darkvision class, the lack of access to ultravision can kind of be rough from a pure gameplay perspective. I know there are necklaces and things that grant that if you find them, but it would be nice if those glowing eyes came with a bonus to visual range or sight too. Just a thought.

I'm not going to start listing all the weaknesses pure monk has and the counter play they dont have against those weaknesses. There's a lot of them.
For that reason, it seems only fair they will have some very strong tools as a counter measurement to their lack of UMD. I dont particularly mind or think it's OP that wholeness of body functions as a greater restoration effect every 10 min. It seems balanced for pure monks and scales down the more you multiclass.. For 20 lvls dex based monk you're looking at 160 hp heal ~IF~ you actually manage to max your wisdom with gear and owl's wisdom (owl's insight scrolls are out of the game unless you have druid lvls).