Druid elemental forms are too strong defensively.

[Dagonlives]

They are absurdly durable with great AC, DR, and crit immunity. Might be worth looking at giving them the 'palemaster' treatment.

[Ebonstar]

have to disagree because you have to pure druid to get those defensive forms, so they may be strong defense but they give up alot for it

[Nobs]

What do they give up for going pure that the forms dont give back and then some?

[Jagel]

They give up tumble and disc to name two things that play a role in overall defensive capability. The lack of UMD also plays a role in overall performance.

If there is a problem with monoliths I’d say it had to do with the spammable nature a cooldown or use per day restriction might be prudent. Maybe. Not fully convinced that this is needed but I have neither played a druid with these shapes nor fought one or even partied with one.

[Nobs]

pure druid must really be that strong then if they dont need tumble disc and umd

[Petrifictus]

Nerf druid please, I've seen many times how one or two can wreck entire parties on their own and not everyone has access on right wands or gonnes to deal with them.

Give them Pale Master treatment.

[Dagonlives]

A druid using Monolithic elemental shape doesn't need discipline because it -cannot be knocked down or disarmed.-

They don't need UMD because you don't use UMD in a polymorph anyway. It's not mechanically possible.

They don't need tumble because they can just get Epic Damage Resistance 3 times, and ignore so much incoming damage that the biteback damage from a fire elemental's shield is higher then the damage a baseline level 30 melee will do to it. Also, they can still get half rank tumble. Nothing stops that.

A monolithic druid being healed by another source or just using medkits can endlessly replenish itself while being continually hit by a fighter. It will outheal the damage. That's a problem.

Give them more offense, reduce their defense.

The druidic monollithic elemental forms are so strong, the draconic forms, the totem forms, and every other kind of shapeshift is just blatantly inferior in almost any situation.

[Jack Oat]

have to disagree because you have to pure druid to get those defensive forms, so they may be strong defense but they give up alot for it

This is not an argument. This is a kneejerk reaction post. You can tell it's a kneejerk reaction post because it has:
1) A stated opinion
2) No supporting evidence
3) Vague claims

A druid using Monolithic elemental shape doesn't need discipline because it -cannot be knocked down or disarmed.-

They don't need UMD because you don't use UMD in a polymorph anyway. It's not mechanically possible.

They don't need tumble because they can just get Epic Damage Resistance 3 times, and ignore so much incoming damage that the biteback damage from a fire elemental's shield is higher then the damage a baseline level 30 melee will do to it. Also, they can still get half rank tumble. Nothing stops that.

A monolithic druid being healed by another source or just using medkits can endlessly replenish itself while being continually hit by a fighter. It will outheal the damage. That's a problem.

Give them more offense, reduce their defense.

The druidic monollithic elemental forms are so strong, the draconic forms, the totem forms, and every other kind of shapeshift is just blatantly inferior in almost any situation.

This is an argument. You can tell it's an argument because it has:
1) A subject/topic
2) Supporting evidence
3) Claims that can be backed up with FACTS and LOGIC


Be like Dagonlives. Post arguments, not kneejerk reactions.



As a personal input, there's no efficient way to kill a Druid that I know of short of having multiple people in a party. Their builds can get up into the 70s for AC, with high AB (45-ish?)/damage, immunity to sneaks/crits, and a high HP pool. Saying that they "trade things" is like saying a 20 Fighter/7 Weaponmaster/3 Rogue "trades things" from a 23 Fighter/7 Weaponmaster because it doesn't get Fighter 23's +1 bonus nonsense, even though the 20/7/3 split is objectively better. They don't really "trade things." They just don't have much in the way of build variation because frankly they don't need it.

Couple that with some powerful spells they can sling off before shifting for solid damage (i.e. Inferno and iirc Spike Growth?) and you've got a class with no real major downsides. I support giving them a more in-depth review and some tweaking.

[Mythic]

Alright. Having seen this same thread multiple times. And being a major druid main/Theorycrafter

I agree, The forms are quite strong. But they have major tradeoffs and downsides that are very easily exploitable.

The AC gained is dodge AC. So as soon as you start fighting a druid, Find a way to get them flatfooted, Wether thats Darkness, Hiding, Knocking them down (Druids even in form max at around 36-40 Discipline if they cross-train the skill)

Only the Monolithic Earth Elemental form has immunity to Knockdown. Which is the lowest AC elemental form. And has no bludgeoning immunity, and 100% vulnerability to Sonic damage.

In fact, all of the Elemental forms have 100% Vulnerability to something.

Fire is 100% Vulnerable to Cold damage.
Water is 100% Vulnerable to Lightning Damage
Air is 100% Vulnerable to Cold as well
Earth is 100% Vulnerable to Sonic

5/- DR vs one of these from an essence, really wont help. Warlocks for example, having access to cold blast (Fiend and such) Will absolutely shred a Druid

You can deal with their summons in the same way you do other mages. Spell Breach + Dismissal or banishment, Or WoF

If you want to not take the Fire-Biteback and wail on a Fire-Elemental Druid. KD them before they cast it, Or use readily available Elemental-Shield scrolls which give YOU 100% immunity to Fire damage

The damage they deal is Elemental, Fire is easily resistable, the Sonic damage in air-form is laughable and the water forms Cold can also be heavily reduced if not outright nullified.

Gonnes counter druids. Scrolls counter druids. Knockdown counters druids. Traps counter Druids

We have no UMD, no Discipline, No Tumble. 3 Attacks per round, 4 if hasted. And the inability to cast in Forms

Counter them, Learn to fight them.

Now, Thats not to say I dont think druids could do with a nerf.

Air form I think is fine, Its damage is very low, Its speed and AC are high. I'd say leave that one alone.

Fire Form, I assume is everybodies Bugbear here, And it is absurdly tanky. With full buffs, I can sit at around 54-56 AC comfortably in Fire-Elemental Form. The main tradeoff is having 36 AB

Yes 36 AB. Its painfully low.

But, the Health-Pool could do with being reduced to around 600. Compared to the 800 it can hit now. I'd not change anything else about Fire-Form than tone down the HP Pool.

Earth Form has issues. If you dont use Damage-Reduction 3? Its pretty much worthless, Sure it has decent AB but the HP Pool and low AC really mean that earth-forms get shredded, both in PvE for content-appropriate to level 28+ and in PvP

Water Form feels quite balanced. It has decent AC, decent AB, And nice enough boons to get by.

And I'll post some baseline stats from each Form - keep in mind they all get crit immunity and such

Fire Form
840HP - 36/31/26 AB - 52 AC (With Stat-Buffs and Barkskin)

Water Form
630HP - 39/34/29AB - 49AC (W/Stat/Skin)

Air Form
570HP - 43/43/38/33AB - 63AC (Haste does not work bc its permahasted)
15-17 Damage/hit w/2d10 Sonic

Earth Form
690HP - 46/41/36AB - 41 AC
29 Damage + 20 Bludgeoning

TLDR : The Forms are fine, Learn to Counter them. Nerf the Fire-Elemental HP

Druids are a defensive class. 3APR and low AB mean its Turtle or Nothing. The Damage is easily Mitagatable.

Oh, and making EDR 1-2-3 Stop stacking with Druid DR/Immunities from Forms would be a huge, but acceptable nerf

[Shadowy Reality]

Considering Mage Armor, Barkskin, Armor Skin, CC Tumble and +4 Shield. With Focus, Epic Focus and Prowess, +8 Str/Dex (from transmutation and item) the respective AB/AC for each monolithic shape is:

Fire: 38 AB | 56 AC
Water: 41AB | 53 AC
Earth: 48 AB | 45 AC
Air: 47 AB | 67 AC

As mentioned before, note that over 15 of that AC is Dodge and only Earth Elemental is immune to CC. Out of those, the only one that seems off is Air elemental.

I think the real issue is the Animal Companion and EDK in conjunction with this that are the real problem. I do not think many people have realised that the Bear animal companion reaches +55ab, dealing an average of 40 damage that bypasses all DR. Note that the companion has 2 attacks at +55, 3 if hasted.

It is fine for monolithic shapes to be as tanky as they are, the Air elemental could do with some tweaks, and the Animal companion could be toned down a notch. Nothing wrong with being tanky if you lack in offense, just can't have both. But all in all, they aren't that broken, they are just hard to deal with, you can't simply left click and wait.

[Dedman1234]

Most people around here seem to forget one of the largest drawback of being a pure druid - you are essentially unable to heal during combat (except regen) if your opponent has access to any form of KD and enough AB to hit you... Wich is not a lot, considering the standard druid equipment. It's not even only healing, anything that requires a druid to be in their normal form is usually off the table.

I doubt there are any mages or warlocks, that want a druid nerf, since they most likely do not have a problem with tearing the poor forestwalkers if they know what they are doing... especially warlocks, druids do stand a chance against a mage, but its 50/50 I'd say.

The only forms viable for pvp, I'd say are the fire form and air form. Both of wich have massive weaknesses. The other two are a joke, at least most of the time... Water is pretty much only viable against other druids, that have shifted into fire form and that's it. Any fighter with one arm can just play a point-and-click adventure game with their KD and defeat it.
Earth may be tanky, but it has a staggering 150% vulnerability to sonic damage and is lacking any form of elemental damage on its own. A temporary sonic essence will shatter even druids with edr. For some reason, the monolithic form is medium-sized... does not really make sense, if you ask me, but it means that its additional ability to KD on its own will pretty much never work.

As for the other two forms, both are weak to cold. Again, a temporary essence will do the trick. Fire form is, admittedly very hard to defeat using only melee, but definitely not impossible. You can KD the druid and do whatever you want for a whole round, including healing or using a wand of haste. Its easy to kite as well, since the druid is unable to haste himself without risking getting KD'd in human form... wich is pretty much a death sentence. Also, I am pretty sure the elemental shield only reduces the fire dmg by 50%, wich is still a lot if paired with a defensive essence or a fire-eater stone (10 dr against fire).

Air has some potential, due to its speed, ac and ab... In a 2v1 it will fall, though. The massive AC is mostly just dodge ac. I have had creatures on Skal scoring hits on me when they caught my own druid flat-footed, so just like it has been mentioned above, use your UMD to get rid of that AC bonus. A wizard with the ring of the ram might be able to KD it with good timing, if the druid did not cross-class disc.

As for people saying, that it might be impossible to kill a druid if he has someone healing him, just go for the healer. The druid will not be able to stop you from taking his friend out, simply because he is lacking the offensive power to be an actual threat, if you are not attacking him.

Also, the druids have already gotten a nerf, albeit indirectly. The new bracers have a 5/+3 damage soak, wich is actually a lot, since the druids attacks are pretty weak and unable to pierce the DR, that is usually trivial for any other epic character.

I would be completely ok with some tweaks to druids. Right now they are essentially a crutch, they are good for killing players who are only used to clicking on their foe and waiting until it dies, but anyone who knows better than to do it, will have no problem defeting a druid, or at least know how to not get killed by one. A small nerf to their defensive capabilities in exchange for more offense would do the trick. Maybe disable EDR stacking with forms and in exchange increase their offensive power? Like make earth Huge in size and add a bit of damage to its attacks, so the knockdown feat is not entirely useless. Remove the cold vulnerability on air, since there is no real reason for it to be there and to prevent warlocks from tearing it to shreds in seconds, maybe allow it to keep some ac when flat-footed, since getting KD'd in that form can be painful. You know, things like that.

Such a solution would free up three epic feat slots for druids, wich would make the class far more diverse, maybe even someone would pick Epic Rep from time to time, while not making the class entirely useless. Probably a big thing would be to move the bonuses from lvl 28 to 27, so we might see some spellcasting being done by the druids, without risking instant death by WM crits. The disc will still be pretty low in their elemental forms, since the equipment bonuses will disappear, making the choice of whether to shift or not during a fight not be an obvious one, like it is now.

[Sockss]

You can heal with heal pots.

Druid shapes are absurdly imbalanced and, not only that, it's not the most overpowered thing about Druids.

[Richørd]

You can heal with heal pots.

Druid shapes are absurdly imbalanced and, not only that, it's not the most overpowered thing about Druids.

Posts like this one are always lovely.

You ignored the 3 massive previous posts that have tons of information, are well written and even offer free knowledge about counterplay and how to abuse the weaknesses that the elemtnal forms have.
Then you picked up the lonely talking point that one of those 3 posts miss-portrayed (the "we can't heal besides regen" thing) and seem to have based your "druid shapes are absurdly imbalanced and OP and QQ" statement purely on the heal pots issue.

*queue slow clapping noises*

Can we please have more well thought out and good posts in the forums like the three before that one? This forum is literally the one place where people should think first and then write, not the other way around, to make themselves and the community look more reasonable.

[Jagel]

The monoliths could be tied to a wisdom req to avoid the EDR combo.

[Beard Master Flex]

The AC being dodge AC is such a huge equalizer I think naysayers need to give it a closer look. To gain the elemental monolith shapes you cannot have uncanny dodge, which means if you're flat footed at all you'll be taking 100% of incoming damage, which even with 600+ HP you will not last long.

Using potions in combat make you flat footed last I checked and is a death sentence unless you are 1v1 against someone or something that's not built well. Maybe back in the day I'd risk popping a heal potion as a druid when it did a full heal of those 600+ HPs... but when you're eating hundreds of damage around while flat footed the potion does nothing.

It also means that if the druid isn't actively in combat with an enemy they have no dodge ac either and can be shredded down as well.

That being said I don't like the monolith shapes because I feel like a cross class druid really gives more variety in the types of characters you see and I think skills are super fun and cool and the Druid has boring trash skills so you need to CC your points.

Final point is that a druid's only protection after the opening salvo of combat is hoping for a stun from that ninth level acid rain spell. Which takes a full round to proc and can be blocked with clarity. They have no time stop and no show stoppers that cant be stopped with freedom if you're on the ball.

If you can weather their incredibly powerful horde of summons and flat foot them they're toast. A druid casting in melee is just meat. Especially now that many builds even have access to +5 weapons now too... so a 450HP druid with no AC or protections or discipline is at their end.

Or hire an assassin. We need the work!

[Sockss]

You can heal with heal pots.

Druid shapes are absurdly imbalanced and, not only that, it's not the most overpowered thing about Druids.

Posts like this one are always lovely.

You ignored the 3 massive previous posts that have tons of information, are well written and even offer free knowledge about counterplay and how to abuse the weaknesses that the elemtnal forms have.
Then you picked up the lonely talking point that one of those 3 posts miss-portrayed (the "we can't heal besides regen" thing) and seem to have based your "druid shapes are absurdly imbalanced and OP and QQ" statement purely on the heal pots issue.

*queue slow clapping noises*

Can we please have more well thought out and good posts in the forums like the three before that one? This forum is literally the one place where people should think first and then write, not the other way around, to make themselves and the community look more reasonable.

The identified weaknesses are not weaknesses with the druid as they assume low-skill players left clicking and being unable to utilise the kit effectively.

A druid has AOE party friendly KD on a reflex save for 1 round. (This is absolutely insane and the fact that I've seen no other druid use this makes me assume that people rely on the stat-stick crux of monolith and do not use the druid to anywhere near its full potential.)
A druid can gain distance with air elemental shape and proper use of summons (pathing & blocking)
A druid has the best defense, while maintaining other class skills.
Uncanny dodge is absolutely not needed on any character if you simply don't flat foot yourself which is exceptionally easy to not do.
A druid has a panic button in totem shape which gives him a crazy buffer to any nuke, or any positioning mistake.

Counterplay for summons is not simply 'breach and WoF', it requires a well targeted mords spell to strip SR and then a WoF - something that is not going to happen outside of bad placement or use of summons. Otherwise you're taking 6 rounds to do so if you can't cast those spells naturally and then you have a dragon on top to deal with.

A druid, even discounting bombard which is nuts, can KD an opponent with hellball and summon-mob someone which is a damage nuke greater than the standard IGMS spam.

While a warlock can kill a druid, they do so slower than a druid kills them and they have to bypass touch AC which a druid has lots of - hell the druid can simply sit in natural/totem form and completely ignore vulnerabilities. A druid can also shift out and heal while his summons tear into a warlock.

Saying gonnes/traps counter druids is disingenuous, as by this logic gonnes/traps counter everything. Druids actually are better at countering gonnes/traps than most characters. Owing to shape stats and dodge/dex AC.

I think I covered everything.

[Disciprine Come From Within]

A druid in Monolith form alone is not the most overpowered thing in the server. But, it's disingenuous to talk about druids as if they don't have weaknesses. They do.

However, what makes druids easily the most powerful class on the server is the fact that they easily are able to produce the largest general damage output while having the most stable defenses. Not through the damage their forms do, but rather through the strength of their summons. While Elemental Swarm does summon one tier down on the summon list, those summons still acquire the epic progression bonuses and are able to be given +12 Str, regeneration, spell resistance, and a decent AC improvement. This, coupled with the power of their animal companion which hits like a weaponmaster and I believe has true seeing, puts a prepared druid in a place where they won't be threatened by much of the content on the server. Dragon Knight is also a powerful option but is usually saved for emergency situations.

In PvP, I'd say what makes Druids frustrating to fight is totem shaping. It's probably one of their weakest forms end game but no other class can explode from 200 hp to almost 800 hp with the push of a button while prone. Even if you KD a Druid from surprise unbuffed with their pants down as a meleer, they can instantly move to a form that is unlikely to be killed in a single round and on their next round, enter a totem form with similar hp and better defenses. Round after that will probably be Dragon Knight since that can be casted in a form. While this can be countered with the proper scroll options, no class can turn around a situation as easily as this. Other strange combinations that can be used, but I admit I haven't seen is the fact a Druid can cast Greater Ruin and Hellball in form. This could be used as a finisher in a form already difficult to fight.

Druids also have the best general spellbook out of all the casters, but I don't see those offensive options used much as most druids out of shape are more vulnerable than a wizard and I guess the risk isn't seen as worth it. But, should a Druid choose to use their caster options, spells like Inferno can lock down casters from their spells due to the large damage taken at the start of every round. Stonehold and Storm of Vengeance are two of the best crowd control spells in the game. Situational spells like Creeping Doom can wreck a long term fight, and if they chose to, they have 300 damage harm, and death spells like Drown and Finger of Death. For undead, Druids have Sunburst and Wall of Fire. And while not as impressive as a Cleric, Druids still have Heal, Mass Heal, and Regenerate for recovery purposes.

Probably the things that have pushed druids so far with the power creep are spells like Dragon Knight and Elemental Swarm. Those two options on top of their already powerful strengths put them in a very good place as a summoner class. Monolith Forms just help ensure targeting the summoner is more trouble than just trying to purge the summons down. Beating a Druid in PvP is a matter of locking them down in a defensive form while you remove their offensive summons from the board. After that, it's a long battle until the battle stalemates or the Druid is eventually defeated and overrun while holding onto that defense. It's possible, but I don't think many people find that to be very fun. I don't really care about the PvP though, but druids do trivialize the content of the server with relative ease compared to many other classes and their strength with their summons can cause strife with party make up as some people can feel like they have nothing to provide in a party with a druid.

[Sockss]

A druid in Monolith form alone is not the most overpowered thing in the server. But, it's disingenuous to talk about druids as if they don't have weaknesses. They do.

What are they?

Even if a druid is played incredibly poorly, you'd have to be exceptionally terrible to not be able to get away. Outside of the druid letting itself be whittled to very low hp, or against very bad odds, no one has any way of actually finishing it unless you let them.

[Disciprine Come From Within]

If you are asking for druid weaknesses, I will provide. However, I will also say that most of their weaknesses can be handled within their class abilities which is why I didn't really list them.

Their HP and saves are terrible out of form. However, they do have Totem Shape to instantly fix both problems.

As the current focus for most players is to shoot for Monolith form, they don't get full Discipline and Tumble, and lack UMD. Despite the fact they do not have these things does not mean they don't adapt. Since most of their forms get crazy strength scores, size modifiers, and they can easily +12 themselves, even with cross classed discipline they can be hard to knock over.

Most of their damage comes from their summons. Even monolith form doesn't have impressive damage, so when a druid doesn't have a summon and are threatened in a form, that is when they are in their worst state.

And yes, you're right. Druids can be very safe even when played poorly compared to other classes. Most PvP will not end with a dead druid, but instead a druid getting away in a form that is too much trouble to kill.

[Iceborn]

From what I've heard as of late from the few druid players that I have around, and Interacted with, fire form seems infinitely more satisfying than water/earth/air. Might be worth looking into that.

[Aftond]

I'd say some form of rework that considers the less used forms would be a good start to making druids balanced.

30% DI + 14/- DR (fire form with edr + second skin) is no joking matter when considering the forms are immune to sneaks and crits.

Epic spells are castable during a form, heal potions are drinkable. Ontop of that, you've got 30CL vs dispels which is really strong. Sure, an arcane caster could deal with a druid probably. Wizards can deal with anything. If we judge balance by what a wizard or sorcerer can or can't kill, we wouldn't get anywhere. (Warlocks may be added to that pool, since they trivialize AC in general. Palemasters were nerfed even with this knowledge).

This isn't even mentioning the summons. 42 SR makes them immune to any removal, so you'd have to mords and then WoF them. Which isn't something you can just "do". Once that is done, you've an edk to wrestle with ontop of that.

Gonnes can be out-healed by heal potions. Are heal potions expensive? Compared to the umd cost mundanes have to put up with, to just remove some summons, I wouldn't say so.

At the end of the day, balancing druids seems to be a tricky thing to do. I think the suggestion of somehow limiting the use of EDR feats during form would be a good start. Maybe we'll see some druids casting something else than just buffs with such a change.

[xanrael]

My 2 cents, and this is from playing a pure druid right as Monolith forms came out.

1. Reduce the elemental DI down to very low (5%), you already get to copy armor, helm, and shield so you have access to DI there.

2. Lower the Monolith elemental stats a bit and give them magic staves to compensate for attack and damage numbers.

3. I seem to remember Hellfire Balor Shield being breachable, if it is not, make it so. Also add a cooldown of 3 minutes on it (have to put it up every transition so cooldown shouldn't be insane but long enough that it is once per PvP).

4. Cooldown on the elemental forms of 10 minutes instead of x/day, 3 minutes when you'd get "infinite" form. Nerfs quick shifting for a particular spell but QoL change for druids as they level.

5. Remove -4 physical stats and buffs to totem forms for new totem characters. Also keep the dragon model for EDK.

6. Awaken no longer has an extra attack.

7. Ranger/Druid companions come with Awaken already on it or they gain a 10 minute cooldown special ability to cast it, whichever is easier to code.

8. GMF caps at +5 attack/damage, but the AC buff caps at +10.

9. Give Rangers a special ability to guard their companion (PDKs can already do so).

[Archnon]

This will probably require hacks but what if druid forms could be dispelled with a high enough caster level. This would at least provide a critical counter. Thought it wouldn't help the average fighter.

[Jagel]

This will probably require hacks but what if druid forms could be dispelled with a high enough caster level. This would at least provide a critical counter. Thought it wouldn't help the average fighter.

It doesn’t seem like a solution to make something that either does nothing or a complete shutdown

*edit* it seems that some of the gripe is that druids have powerful tanky shapes and a handful of powerful summons. Could elemental swarm and monolith shapes be made mutually exclusive? I.e. if you have ES out, you cannot use elemental shape. Or using elemental shape unsommons the four elementals.

[Alantar]

I agree with the idea that once you get rid of the summons, killing a druid is possible. To get rid of them you can use, as far as I know:

- Dispel on the druid (it won't affect the animal companion or the EDK, though)
- WoF
- Banishment

If you catch the druid off guard, you can start with a Banishment, lock the summoning, and get him into big troubles.

After that, even a mage with Premonition/Acid Sheath can be hard to kill for a druid. The only problem I see is caused by the heal potions, which can make the druid almost impossible to kill with IGMS/Damage spells except you use your Time Stop wisely.