Druid elemental forms are too strong defensively.

[Brahtius]

The animal companion should also have a 1d10 of fire/cold damage depending on the berry.

This is whats achievable using the human EDR3 build. Does it take a while to ward this all? Yes. It takes several minutes. I couldn't get haste wands on the PCCG server so I chugged a haste potion every now and then. Keep in mind a druid can use divine cleric wands for improved invis and a 15 IG hour dexterity and endurance boon.

Are there counters for all these things? Sure. Can any other class pack this much fire power by themselves and ontop of what is insane tanking potential? No.

[Nobs]

[Mythic]

You can Insta-Kill a druid with Banishment or Dismissal (one or the other) If they fail their save. There is no SR vs it, and death-wards dont help either. (in Elemental form of course)

[Aftond]

You can Insta-Kill a druid with Banishment or Dismissal (one or the other) If they fail their save. There is no SR vs it, and death-wards dont help either. (in Elemental form of course)

That's pretty cool, didn't know about that interaction. Should a standard mage cast either of the spells, the dc's would be around 36. From the pictures above, it shows 29 will during the forms, not counting in spellcraft which is another +6 uni.

Which means a near immunity to the spell anyway, unless you're baiting 1's.

[Shadowy Reality]

If you look at the numbers, the only thing that is really concerning is the Animal companion as I stated before, +55ab with loads of damage.

Elemental Swarm summons, while alright, are not exactly monstrous, their AB is very very supbar, you should not be hit by those except on a 20, which is bound to happen when there are 4 of them. Maybe make Elemental Swarm and Animal companion mutually exclusive, and tune down the Animal Companion as mentioned before.

They do not need that extra attack from Awaken, at least not at full BAB, and they don't need GMF to reach +10.

[Jagel]

Just be careful not to unintentionally nerf rangers with this

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

Just..Don't mess with nature.

On a side note:
Druids in elemental shape can't touch my nerfed Palemaster, Wich makes me feel that they don't need to be nerfed.

[Richørd]

Just..Don't mess with nature.

On a side note:
Druids in elemental shape can't touch my nerfed Palemaster, Wich makes me feel that they don't need to be nerfed.

Or perhaps Palemasters still have too much AC?

What is already dead may never die.

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

Just..Don't mess with nature.

On a side note:
Druids in elemental shape can't touch my nerfed Palemaster, Wich makes me feel that they don't need to be nerfed.

Or perhaps Palemasters still have too much AC?

What is already dead may never die.

Dunno, I mean, the bear shape could hit me.
And there are enough none palemasters that have higher AC out there with great AB to add.

Honestly, There is always a stronger class or build out there. You nerf druids now, tomorrow we nerf healers. :/

[Cerk Evermoore]

Both probably should be nerfed. PM and Druid occupy the same relative place in the meta, such is why they seem equal when you do a /match up/

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

Both probably should be nerfed. PM and Druid occupy the same relative place in the meta, such is why they seem equal when you do a /match up/

No they do not, While Druids are somewhat king of the hill, Palemasters aren't.
There are a couple classes that could beat the bleep out of Palemasters.

That said, We're speaking defensively and we' re speaking class, Wich is tricky.

There are combinations of classes, Certain builds that can archief equal AC and AB without being druid or Palemaster.

[strong yeet]

You can Insta-Kill a druid with Banishment or Dismissal (one or the other) If they fail their save. There is no SR vs it, and death-wards dont help either. (in Elemental form of course)

This is not true. Please do not spread misinformation on the forums.

[Mythic]

You can Insta-Kill a druid with Banishment or Dismissal (one or the other) If they fail their save. There is no SR vs it, and death-wards dont help either. (in Elemental form of course)

This is not true. Please do not spread misinformation on the forums.

Really? Because it Insta-Gibbed me.

[Brahtius]

Whats the blacked out number? I bet its higher than 36.

[Sockss]

More cost effective than implosion.

[Aren]

70+ AC and 42 SR, >mid 30's saves, +500 HP, 4 elder elementals, and a pocket WM 55 AB animal companion, and EDK.

Shift in and out of form to cast heal on self or SoV or Creeping Doom on characters that are swarmed by summons.

Druids are fine.

[strong yeet]

Well now I feel stupid AND like an Snuggybear. Oops.

[Brahtius]

Well now I feel stupid AND like an Snuggybear. Oops.

NWNWiki says that both spells are affected by Spell Resistance.

Banishment
Spell level: cleric 6; sorcerer/wizard 7
Innate level: 6
School: abjuration
Components: verbal, somatic
Range: short (8 meters)
Area of effect: colossal (10 meter radius)
Duration: instant
Save: will negates
Spell resistance: yes

Dismissal
Spell level: bard 4; cleric 4; sorcerer/wizard 5
Innate level: 4
School: abjuration
Components: verbal, somatic
Range: short (8 meters)
Area of effect: colossal (10 meter radius)
Duration: instant
Save: will negates
Spell resistance: yes
Additional counterspells: gate

The caster in Mythic's picture is most likely a L30 therefore they can by-pass their spell resistance. It only would've been a 1/20 chance by the way. So a UMD melee with a banishment scroll thats probably like caster level 13 is most likely not going to go through their spell resistance of 42.

[RedGiant]

This is the usual post, which talks about fighting fully buffed Druids under optimal circumstances... optimal for the Druid that is.

This almost never happens, and if it does, you've chosen your time and terrain poorly.

Yes, Druids are the summoners par excellence...and they can give up casting to be able to fight...but not do both. Their wind up time is incredible and they get stomped all the time by the insta-great classes. On this point, let us not forget the obvious and easy ways, which do not have a cool down, that prevent you from getting your summons out in the first place.

This is going way back into the thread, but its also disingenuous to call something a good argument supported by facts when it claims that monoliths can use medkits to outheal themselves.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

You can Insta-Kill a druid with Banishment or Dismissal (one or the other) If they fail their save. There is no SR vs it, and death-wards dont help either. (in Elemental form of course)

This is not true. Please do not spread misinformation on the forums.

Really? Because it Insta-Gibbed me.

The lack of an actual Spell Resistance check in your combat log before death makes me suspect that before they cast banishment at you, there was also a line that read "Sylrie Aelorothi casts/uses Greater/Lesser Spell Breach."

That aside, druids are one of the strongest core classes of the game, vanilla NWN or tabletop. Divine casters always have been.

Arelith druids are objectively better in every way that matters than vanilla druids (excepting the dragonshape/monk combo). You don't even have to go to the trouble of finding ironwood or getting dragonhide before you can throw metal armor on your druid without losing your powers. You can't seriously consider "balancing" them until you take them back much closer to the initial superior ground they start on- and I find that highly unlikely given what I oh-so-originally call the totem meta.

I do agree they need some tuning, but that looks like a lot of work, because they have a lot going for them, and too much of a nerf will give them a lot of useless crap that makes all current druids feel bitter, while under-doing it will still leave them with way too much not useless crap.

The bear has always been amazing. Leave Smoky alone.

[Aren]

This is the usual post, which talks about fighting fully buffed Druids under optimal circumstances... optimal for the Druid that is.

This almost never happens, and if it does, you've chosen your time and terrain poorly.

Yes, Druids are the summoners par excellence...and they can give up casting to be able to fight...but not do both. Their wind up time is incredible and they get stomped all the time by the insta-great classes. On this point, let us not forget the obvious and easy ways, which do not have a cool down, that prevent you from getting your summons out in the first place.

This is going way back into the thread, but its also disingenuous to call something a good argument supported by facts when it claims that monoliths can use medkits to outheal themselves.

I never see anything -but- fully warded druids out in the wilds. Using that as an example is almost laughable, as ALL casters have long wind/buff up times, lest they be one-shot by a well placed spell.

At high level, druids can chug a haste potion, shift out of elemental form, cast heal/SoV/CD/StoneHold, and shift back into form quite quickly as their summons swarm their target in the mean time.

[Petrifictus]

This is the usual post, which talks about fighting fully buffed Druids under optimal circumstances... optimal for the Druid that is.

This almost never happens, and if it does, you've chosen your time and terrain poorly.

Yes, Druids are the summoners par excellence...and they can give up casting to be able to fight...but not do both. Their wind up time is incredible and they get stomped all the time by the insta-great classes. On this point, let us not forget the obvious and easy ways, which do not have a cool down, that prevent you from getting your summons out in the first place.

This is going way back into the thread, but its also disingenuous to call something a good argument supported by facts when it claims that monoliths can use medkits to outheal themselves.

I never see anything -but- fully warded druids out in the wilds. Using that as an example is almost laughable, as ALL casters have long wind/buff up times, lest they be one-shot by a well placed spell.

At high level, druids can chug a haste potion, shift out of elemental form, cast heal/SoV/CD/StoneHold, and shift back into form quite quickly as their summons swarm their target in the mean time.

This is very true. Never seen unwarded Druids expect maybe couple times.

They so overpowered that some even get OOC discouraged and give up the moment there is word that there is Druids around when it comes to conflict, etc.

Also what's the point to play actual dragon or shifter if you can turn into a elemental or dragon as druid? Maybe we could nerf druids by letting keep the totem form and summons, but keep dragons with dragons and elementals for shifters

[Aren]

Also what's the point to play actual dragon or shifter if you can turn into a elemental or dragon as druid? Maybe we could nerf druids by letting keep the totem form and summons, but keep dragons with dragons and elementals for shifters

I wouldn't remove either dragon or monolith shape. But I'd advocate a down-tuning of the Monoliths - but not to an extent where they aren't worth investing all your levels in druid.

[GwaiLo]

Druids should only be super powered within a forest, and much weaker outside of forest areas. That would be cool.

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

Druids should only be super powered within a forest, and much weaker outside of forest areas. That would be cool.

You forget, Druids go where nature goes, While one druid tends to a forest, Another tends to deserts and yet another tends to the sewers of Cordor.