Constant Beta?

[RedGiant]

This is kind of my entire point. In real life, we have eastern-style martial arts monks, and we have western-style tonsure monks who brew beer and stuff. There aren't any western-style monks who do martial arts.

I'm enjoying the historical banter here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_arts_timeline

Though Wikipedia is hardly authoritative, this timeline isn't bad. If we really look at monks as practitioners of martial arts, the established history is arguably older in the West. We have authoritative texts and archeological evidence from as early as 2,000-3,000 B.C. Amusingly, I was just watching the Anime "Baki the Grappler" the other day, which recognizes this fact...even though every Western practitioner gets his butt kicked sooner rather than later on the show. The Anime fictitiously traces the Eastern interest in martial arts to travels along the Silk Road and early contact with Pankration in the Olympic Games. The experiences of these early Eastern explorers in the Olympics inspires the seminal Raitai tournament.

Even though the influences here are largely fictitious, they have the timeline more or less right. We don't even get Shaolin Kung Fu founded until 477 B.C. (Don't believe the Chinese propaganda here that they can trace their roots here to 3...4...5000 B.C. Make them cough up the archeological evidence. All you get then are first millennium B.C. dates, suspiciously close to the Shaolin date.)

Sufficive to say, many, if not most, cultures were practicing some sort of systematized martial arts well before the medieval-like temporal setting FR espouses. I think these traditions were more readily abandoned in the technocratic West, but they were certainly there to begin with. We see many late attempts at reviving these, such as in the Russian martial-art "Buza."

No that we need more monk changes at the moment, since we are in the middle of a drunken-fist hangover, but this might be a cool "path" where most of the class stays the same, but a "western style" monk gets a balanced but completely differentiated base monk weapon proficiency.

[Subutai]

No that we need more monk changes at the moment, since we are in the middle of a drunken-fist hangover, but this might be a cool "path" where most of the class stays the same, but a "western style" monk gets a balanced but completely differentiated base monk weapon proficiency.

Different monk paths could be cool, but I'd be hesitant to put a stark divide between "western" and "eastern", just because I don't think the NWN monk is necessarily the right class to represent the more real life western monks, and any kind of western-flavored eastern-style monks would, like their eastern-flavored counterparts, probably find a lot of similarities between the various weapons. A naginata and a glaive, for example, are basically the same weapon.

In fact, if we're going to add naginatas, I'd almost prefer if we just add a glaive, and give it a couple of naginata-looking appearances, since adding a glaive and a naginata separately would be pretty pointless.

Other various swords, darts, shurikens, etc., are going to have similarly shared techniques. It would make sense that if a Calishite monk chose to expand into using Kara-Turan weapons, they'd find it relatively straight forward (except some of the more exotic ones), and the same would be true of a Kara-Turan monk choosing to expand into using Calishite weapons.

[Cagus]

Hi all,
even though this discussion is siderailing from original issue,
I have to make reaction on this post, because OP speaks not only from my heart but also he talks about me (player who doesn't post on forum and just disappears). I am in 100% agreement in all he is saying.

The last changes ruined the concept of my character (Tsa-ge of Wa, dgnome katana master, ranger/monk). The thing I made whole concept of this character around vanishes in almost unnoticable PUFF.
After leveling it to 28 lvl with fullgear, there came HAK changes to races, which made me start over, but I swallowed the bitter pill, and made it to lvl 21 (summer time, not much time for playing), but then comes new change, which renderes even this character invalid in original concept. And I guess that because I haven't reach monk levels, I won't even get relevel and she will just get deleted. This means my last five months in the game concluded in nothing.
Also I realize this build can be made with kamas with just little lose of 0-6 dmg on hit, but the concept is ruined I don't want to have toon which looks like gardener with those two hoes.
BUT.. that is not the issue I want to yammer about. As OP said, the problem is recidivum, which comes all over again. Things like this happens, but when this happens for third fifth time, it gets really tiresome.

I am not against balancing, the opposite is the truth. Vanilla NWN needs it, for datadisks brought unbalance. But many times over they came changes which renderes the character unjoyable, if bearable to play at all. Whole class changes, not just numbers tuning/balancing.

Also... there is one psychological effect called loss aversion. It describes, how people feel twice as painful losing something, than gaining something. If you give something to a person and take something of a similar value, the person will incline to remember and feel the loss, not the gain.
This also leads to Endowment effect, which is about people more likely retain things they have. These effects is something every game developer should work with, as it has impact on players perception of a game development and game per se.

I feel that 'arelith updates' topic hangs over my head like Damocles sword. Arelith is probably only game I know I am afraid of updates. (Recetly I told friend who used to play here, 'Hey, there is a new update on arelith.' and his reaction was something like 'Ouch...' before I said anything what it was about.)

Now I read that there will be changes in WildMage. I have one, my first char here, Nox, I returns to her times-to-times, when my newer character gets changed and lose good feeling about them (even for other reasons ofc). Her insanity is part of what she is and why she is wildmage.
Somehow I expect these WM changes will not improve my gaming experience, the other way around. I will get turned-off to play her anymore and she will go after butcher's cleaver.

[Zavandar]

a lot of people would raise a brow at that

we don't know what wild mage changes are going to be so let's not get ahead of ourselves

the mechanical health of the server is extremely important. ruffling feathers of people playing overturned classes is inevitable, but the tuning is necessary

the server is doing very well, both mechanically and its roleplay. I'm not going to tell you to not be frustrated; your feelings are your own. I've been frustrated by nerfs to my characters too, but it is important to see how these things affect the server, not just you.

[Dr. B]

Gonna weigh in here.

Obviously updates and tweaks are necessary.

I think the problem that OP and others are describing could be alleviated if some of these updates and tweaks were more carefully thought-out. There would be less need for rollback and constant changes if they were, and incidentally, it would probably mean less work for the developers.

That seems to me to be the main issue, with all due respect to those involved.

[Cortex]

Do you seriously think that in three months of observation, discussion and work, this update was poorly thought out?

nvm i misread what dr b had said

[Seekeepeek]

Arelith class changes could need some more peer review before releasing the class concept to coding.
if nothing else then to protect the awesome code contributors, so they can receive their well earned kudos for their amazing coding work, rather then having to deal with the balance backlash that sometimes get personal on a uncomfortable and unfairly level.

[Subutai]

Arelith class changes could need some more peer review before releasing the class concept to coding.
if nothing else then to protect the awesome code contributors, so they can receive their well earned kudos for their amazing coding work, rather then having to deal with the balance backlash that sometimes get personal on a uncomfortable and unfairly level.

This is something really important, and I've been planning to most a post on it for a while. I don't want anything I'm about to say sound like an attack on the team. I just want to give some insight that I've gained from working as a professional software developer (as I'm sure many of our devs have) about how updates go when they're good and when they're bad.

Having worked as a software developer for quite a few years now, the reality is that, whether the work is payed or voluntary, whether the client is paying you or some else is, or whatever other circumstances you can think of, bad or breaking updates will always reflect poorly not just on the dev who released them, but on the dev team as a whole, especially when those bad or breaking changes make it into production.

If I wrote a script to migrate data, and it didn't migrate the right data, or didn't put it in all the right places, they'd wonder why we didn't test the migration script more thoroughly. If we actually released the product that way, they'd wonder if we even tested it at all. If I wrote a reporting tool that didn't generate the right information, they'd wonder the same things, and wonder why we didn't talk to the subject matter experts and instead decided our understanding of it was complete.

Even if it was a volunteer project, the same thing would be true. Breaking and bad changes undermine confidence in the dev team, always. People can talk about how understanding they are that it's volunteer work, and work done for fun, but at the end of the day, when updates break things, especially in major ways, people will start to doubt the abilities of the team.

I've seen this happen to myself and teams I've worked on, and I've seen it on various Discord channels, especially when class changes are released. The Kensai debacle still gets talked about, and I'm sure Monk will too for a long time. Druid and Wild Mage gets brought up, Weave Master, Pale Master. Even Spellsword gets mentioned pretty often; they're in a good place now, but people don't forget this kind of stuff.

There's this idea among developers, volunteer and professional alike, that if they were just allowed more freedom to do what they wanted, they could release things perfectly. If they didn't have to go through the entire code review, QA, testing process, things would be smoother. It's never true, and never works out. Those processes are there not only to ensure everything is working, but to protect the devs and the team. They're there to make sure that bad updates don't get released, so that the team can work in peace, and don't have to deal with the distrust and anger of the clients.

I know there's this idea on the dev team here that less process is always better, but stuff like the ongoing (as we can all see, even after the fixes) harsh feedback and criticism proves otherwise. The original monk update was bad, and it's meant that Xerah and the dev team have been crucified multiple times for months now because of it. Is getting something out the door faster, with less process, really worth going through all that criticism? Is it worth eroding the trust of the playerbase in class updates?

Taking the time to go through QA, and a balance team, and making the necessary fixes months ago might have been irritating (it isn't fun to be told your ideas aren't working), but if this most recent monk update, or a similar one, would have been what was released originally, the players would have been singing praises to the dev team for making a great class update from the get-go, rather than the rather lukewarm "These changes were necessary because it was broken".

*Edited for typos

[Cagus]

... but the tuning is necessary

Yes, so I said. But with a scalpel, not a chainsaw. That's the point of my post.

the server is doing very well, both mechanically and its roleplay.

That's the opinion, not statement.

I'm not going to tell you to not be frustrated; your feelings are your own. I've been frustrated by nerfs to my characters too, but it is important to see how these things affect the server, not just you.

This topic shows, I am not the only one frustrated.
The server is affected by individuals leaving for this flustration as I gathered.


Don't take me wrong, I have utter respect for contributor's own free time spent on development. But maybe the decisions could be also made with respect to the time the players spent in the game (on development of their chars).

[Ork]

A lot of unreasonable expectations in this thread. Consider for a moment that no one that works on Arelith code gets *paid* for that work. It's purely out of volunteer interest.

[Volograd]

Don't take me wrong, I have utter respect for contributor's own free time spent on development. But maybe the decisions could be also made with respect to the time the players spent in the game (on development of their chars).

We’re paid plenty enough respect by virtue of being given a free playground to congregate in, along with the ability to voice opinions here in the forums.

I’m singling out this specific quote, but not singling out only you. This applies to anyone who feels that the dev team isn’t being cognizant of the playerbase’s needs.

If anyone really and truly believes that balance changes are going to strike true on the first shot, they need to dial back their expectations. No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy.

Best we can do is play test, provide constructive feedback, and make the best of what we have to play with.

[Zavandar]

@Cagus

the server being more balanced than a few years ago is a fact.

considering you advocated for the grandfathering of OP builds, I don't think your sense of balance is wholly unbiased. "respect to the time of players" isn't this. everyone else had to endure it. monks needed the chainsaw. monks got to hear it revving for months. wild mages needed it (and now got it, too). druids need it (and will be getting it soon). there has been plenty of warning

there are always going to be people upset when their builds are nerfed, but i know many more people happy about monk nerfs (including several monk players) than upset.

[R0GUE]

Also, I just wanted to point out that there is precedent for letting devs go off and do their own projects and work on their own ideas without stringent beta testing. Spotify gives their devs a high degree of autonomy to implement changes and ideas for example, and it's obviously a pretty successful company. Arelith and Spotify have one thing in common they are examples of Agile Development, meaning it's very easy to implement changes, and to make changes to those changes if you see it's not working.

[RedGiant]

I feel that 'arelith updates' topic hangs over my head like Damocles sword. Arelith is probably only game I know I am afraid of updates. (Recetly I told friend who used to play here, 'Hey, there is a new update on arelith.' and his reaction was something like 'Ouch...' before I said anything what it was about.)

Now I read that there will be changes in WildMage. I have one, my first char here, Nox, I returns to her times-to-times, when my newer character gets changed and lose good feeling about them (even for other reasons ofc). Her insanity is part of what she is and why she is wildmage.
Somehow I expect these WM changes will not improve my gaming experience, the other way around. I will get turned-off to play her anymore and she will go after butcher's cleaver.

This was straight up prophecy. I feel there is a very vocal band of forum opinion on "balance" whose opinion is having the day in development.

One example is the idea that the rather benign spell replenishment function on Wild Mage was OP, and that aaall the bad things that can and will happen to you from the surge table wasn't adequate compensation for this boon.

The development decisions of late, while addressing needed balance issues, have all seemingly also embraced the most extreme ideas of this camp.

To be frank, it's driving players from the server, even most recently actual patrons. Yes, we know developers do this out of love, but so do the players. I worry this vocal camp and their constant tl;dr alarmism is unduly having their day, without adequate community discussion about truly important particulars.

[Zavandar]

I guarantee you monks and druids have driven more people away. many people were heavily discouraged by the RP these busted builds enabled and of the hijacking of events. dms have posted how monks really messed up with events because of how OP they were

this isnt "alarmism" and labeling it such in an attempt to discredit informed arguments is bad form. Wild mages were too strong, but very few people played them to their full potential. Monks were too strong and didn't even require effort to be good. Same goes for druids, which will be nerfed soon

A great portion of complaints are coming from people that play these OP builds. That's to be expected, but don't expect to be catered to. There's a whole other, you know, rest of the server

I'm not going to shed tears over people leaving because they are no longer OP

[RedGiant]

This exactly the problem. There is actual celebration when people leave.

You've also missed all nuance in said arguements.

Did Wild Mage need adjustments?

Sure, particularly on the table, granting things like 80 SR l, etc.

Did original chaos shield need cut instead of adjusted downward? Did replenishment need to get the axe almost entirely? Did forced surges need to become a spell instead of an instant action?

No, no, and no. At the very least these details merit discussion.

Same thing with monk.

Should I get epic dodge, blinding speed, 46SR, + 100 movement speed, ki bonus to damage, twohand mode, flurry mode, and up to 8 attacks per round on my now strangely good kensai strength monk (who was made long before the awesome first update)?

No, of course not.

Here again, some of the details merited discussion rather than the wholesale adoption of the alarmist camp positon, which, despite this, still said "good, I wish it were nerfed harder."

The true bad form here is the lack of even attempting to understand nuance and the celebratory tone taken at departing players.

They aren't leaving because they wanted to play OP builds, they are leaving because their investment of time is flushed, needed changes are handled as overcorrections, the community is not consulted in the process, and, frankly, a loss of trust in the system.

[Xerah]

overcorrections

Can you please stop this narrative? None of these changes are remotely close to overcorrections.

[Zavandar]

I understand it very well. You have a habit of participating in these threads because you also have a habit of playing builds that get nerfed

What nuance that exists is a facade to twist an emotional argument into an objective one.

this isn't alarmism. this isnt overcorrection.

[DM Axis]

Arelith for the years that it has been open has been an ever evolving platform. With the release of Haks we are seeing more changes, more dynamic changes, and some coming faster than ever before.

To a degree this makes Arelith the server more akin to an MMO than it does to simply being a multiplayer game of Neverwinter Nights. Some changes can have unintended issues, which we welcome thoughts and ideas in our feedback thread and suggestions box.

That said, this thread has run its course. That will be all for now.