Should Weaponmaster's be Nerfed?

[Archnon]

So, I have recently joined the server and I am new to the build discussion, but I have noticed a significant trend. Whenever a build becomes overplayed, ie, the archtype pvp build, then there is a call on the forums for a nerf. First, palemasters had too much AC, axe it. Then we had the whole monk thing where we suddenly had super human monks and they were everywhere and then they too got the axe. Then came the wild mages and there have been hints of the upcoming druid nerf as well. Shoot, there is even an active thread right now debating skill point allotment pushing against the mandatory 3 level bard dip for spellcraft, discipline, and umd.

I have to say, all of this really impresses me from the Dev team. There is a conscious decision by the admins to limit dominant builds and increase build diversity. From an RP standpoint, this is ideal. It is not much fun walking to a tavern and all the characters getting into a spitting contest over who is the better weaponmaster. Or the more likely situation where characters just powerbuild that and ignore the RP of actually being a weaponmaster which would require significant training, an attachment to a weapon, a disdain for other forms of combat, etc.

That being said, in my time on this forum, I have not seen one call for a Nerf to weaponmasters. This is in spite of the fact that both on the forums and in the build communities, it is the most essential part of any build where there is a pvp goal. If you are building a melee fighter and not taking the 7 level weaponmaster dip it is considered wasted. This is not like, oh this particular class is overpowered. It is much more akin to the situation with bards where it is seen as absolutely essential and has come to dominate PVP on the server. However, unlike bards where it is essentially a latent skill, ie, you get access to wards. WM is an active skill with the aim of maxing out damage in pvp. Even the monk nerf, which was a long time coming, focused on Nerfing pure monks and left largely in tact the emphasis on the monk-weaponmaster combination.

So I pose two simple questions:
1.) Has the weaponmaster become too dominant a build in the server, to the point that it is restricting build diversity and hindering RP?
2.) How can you restrict? (DM Tokens? Increase the levels in WM for getting the Crit bonuses? Other options?)

[Nitro]

Weaponmaster is a dominant build that is often used as the benchmark when balancing new content. It's popular, easy to play and doesn't have a high bar on the skill required to be decently good at it. However it's not the best build either, specialized builds or high skill builds can overtake a weaponmaster quite handily, but for just getting to left click and seeing big damage numbers as a result while being comfortably tanky is where a weaponmaster shines.

So in short, WM's are pretty much the epitome of balance on Arelith right now.
(Also, they're not nearly as dominant a build now as a couple of years ago, thanks to ongoing balance efforts and a plethora of competitive builds available nowdays.)

[Cortex]

Honestly I might class WM at below average for 1v1 scenarios nowadays, but they still have a powerful role in party PvE and PvP.

[Tarkus the dog]

20 fighter used to give you discipline, +1 ab and damage.

A few years ago 20 fighter also gave you +4 ac on helmet, shield an torso while also giving you +4 enchantment on your weapon. This was removed and fighters weren't touched since then, weaponmasters were never touched in general as far as I know, if you don't count the fact that fighters now get intimidate. If you decide to get rid of their burst potential ( which is something most people have an issue with ) you indirectly buff mages who are already the strongest class right now ( and this is a class who has no issue killing a weaponmaster ), and on top of that holy sword, druids and divine builds in general are still a thing. In the world where other melee classes are being kept in line WMs might be an issue, but as things are at the moment that's really not the case.

In short, weaponmasters are pretty average right now but they have two things going for them: 1. short prep time 2. with a support they really pop off. You could nerf them but then you'd kill off the few of us who still play the class, and they are certainly nowhere as problematic as bards, paladins, druids, and monks until very recently.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Dev crit is the only real essential nerf for WM balance, IMO, and it's disabled on this server. I think they're good.

[Dalenger]

Nitro hit it on the head. WM is used as the gold standard for a "good" build that can both pvp and pve and is fairly accessible to newer players. It's the perfect class for clicking on something and seeing big numbers appear. Overplayed and over-represented on the server? Probably, but not bad enough to need to do something about it (like back when every second person on the server was secretly a dragon).

[Sea Shanties]

Even if half the server were weaponmasters I wouldn't think they were overplayed or overrepresented. Seems like a lot of people in a world like this would get really, really good at using a weapon. The only think magical or "special" about the RP is the ki element which I think is generally ignored-- and it's such a vague and possibly out of place thing that doesn't bother me.

If nothing else I like the idea that ye old 20/7/3 is a build that won't be changed significantly by some future update if you want something safe from being reworked while you're playing one. Hope it remains so.

[Irongron]

Personally I've never found Weapon Masters appealing, because they're so situational. It's all about those criticals, yet we have entire dungeons where that's useless.

Sure I get they have some real PvP strength, but I think we too often judge build strength through that lens.

If there is any problem with the class I think it's with the weapons, and not the class.

It would be nice to have all different kinds of Weapon Masters, but numbers are unforgiving, and a small handful of weapons are just simply better in the hands of a WM.

It gets pretty boring when 75% of all Weapon Masters are essentially the same.

[Peppermint]

Weapon Master strength being 'situational' is irrelevant, since players just aren't going to do dungeons that are a pain to do. They'll go elsewhere, where their class' abilities are actually meaningful. This is no different from rogues, assassins, blackguards (to a lesser degree), or DC-oriented casters.

I've always maintained that crit/sneak immunity shouldn't be a thing. It just creates this weird situation where you're balancing classes on two wildly different metrics; it becomes difficult to reconcile. What's more, getting into a dungeon and finding half of your kit useless is just not fun, especially if that portion of your kit is all of your damage (e.g. no sneak attacks on rogues).

Weapon Masters aren't really a PvP powerhouse*. They've some strengths, sure, but most of their strength lies in the fact that they're easy to play. Even a complete novice can contribute with a Weapon Master. The same can't be said for a mage.

(* If anything, they're better in PvE.)

[Adam Antium]

I agree with most of the things said about WM's being not top, but being easy to play and being OK all around.

It's also important to note that as far as pvp goes, terrain control and the element of surprise can make a WM just instantly win sometimes.

Someone is talking threateningly to you? Walk up to them and then type something in response. If pvp happens you just immediately blast them with the power of MUSCLE before they have time to buff or anything.


However, WM's at low to mid levels shine more than some other builds, which can be intimidating. A weapon master can reach really strong numbers by level 15, meanwhile many builds don't shine until later, sometimes not even until 30.

However, something to also note.

If weapon masters can't hurt something because it's just too tough, that often implies it's too tough for ANYBODY ELSE to hurt, too. WM's don't have the highest AB, but they have high AB, and they have very good damage. If a class is simply immune to the power of MUSCLE, then that presents an issue: are they only touchable by one or two builds, and running roughshod over everything else? That's not an optimal balancing situation.

So, in a lot of ways, WM's can be a useful metric to help diagnose balance issues with other classes.

[RedGiant]

This thread confirms what I've long suspected, that we are balancing up to 20/7/3s.

As all know, I generally prefer cookies to nerfs, so I'm not sure I'm really advocating the later here, but I do have concerns. As an administrative note, and to avert the impending apocalypse, I'm going to go back to disagreeing with Peppermint. (Current ratio: 1/999)

Crit/Sneak Immunity absolutely is and should be a thing. Some of the match-ups for weapon master can only match-up because they have this. Take this away and we begin to simplify the game into what I have been terming for years the "melee-centric" theory craft, which seems to want to boil everything down to AB, AC, DPS.

But beyond that, I think Septire had the most useful idea to tweak weapon master, which was to NOT allow every damage increase you could slap onto a weapon to ALSO be multiplied by the weapon master's abilities.

Why?

The game natively has a lot of ways to increase damage, from feats, to class abilities, to weapon properties. Arelith has only added to these possibilities in everything from essencing to enchanting, from cool new weapons to custom class content such as Spellsword.

In short, if anything needs looked at on weapon master, it is probably the ability to multiply 2,3,4,5 types of weapon damage increases.

[Flashish]

I have both a str and a dex WM. I feel like my str WM performs exactly as expected. It's very difficult to solo end game content, but it can hang with a party rather well. If anything I feel like my dex WM is weaker than any of my other builds, though getting UMD sooner balanced that a bit if you don't mind throwing down cash for wands.

[Durvayas]

It would be nice to have all different kinds of Weapon Masters, but numbers are unforgiving, and a small handful of weapons are just simply better in the hands of a WM.

It gets pretty boring when 75% of all Weapon Masters are essentially the same.

The addition of some nice weapons has alleviated this slightly, but virtually all of those weapons are locked behind alignment and/or race.

So there are optimal variances for weapon masters along largely racial lines, but your standard 20/7/3 human WM (which is the benchmark all balance is compared to) is almost always going to be a scimitar still.

If effort is going to be directed towards making WMs more diverse, it might be worth looking into maces, flails, shortswords, spears, etc. and balancing these weapons mathmatically with scimitars/rapiers, so that flavor of WM becomes largely a matter of aesthetic.


Alternatively, rebalance the creatures in the module so that damage type actually matters, because to be frank, the fact that a skeleton has 5/ DR vs piercing only really matters before lvl 5.

Raise damage resistances in PvE across the board, for various types of physical damage, and you can make type of weapon matter. You can then also slow down the pace of combat, so that entire groups of mobs are not wiped out in 5 seconds or less, and people can emote more in PvE.

[Ork]

Weaponmasters are largely a linear experience. I don't think it truly matters what weapons they use - they will, by and large, perform very much the same as every other weaponmaster. While diversity is nice, this is the one build I think makes for a great standard & easy starter for a newbie.

[Peppermint]

The idea that classes have been balanced up to an 'overpowered' Weapon Master is downright absurd.

The class has seen a number of nerfs over the course of the past few years:
1. Overhaul of fighter bonuses, rendering them significantly weaker.
2. Reducing the enhancement bonus received by a standard 20/7/3 build.
3. Removal of artifacts, which synergized better with Weapon Masters than most classes.
4. Nerfing Clarity pots, which opened a significant weakness in Weapon Masters.
5. Nerfing Timestop, which killed the Timestop blitz meta Weapon Masters were so infamous for.

Moreover, Weapon Masters have never been the strongest class. Even before EE (i.e. before most class revisions started), Monks, Bards, and Dragonshapers were just better, and caster classes were competitive in their own niches.

Classes haven't been raised up to a peak allegedly set by Weapon Masters so much as everything has been brought closer to the middle. They are an excellent measuring stick, however; Weapon Masters are well-rounded and easy to grasp, which is why they're raised in mechanical discussions so often.

[Durvayas]

Weaponmasters are largely a linear experience. I don't think it truly matters what weapons they use - they will, by and large, perform very much the same as every other weaponmaster. While diversity is nice, this is the one build I think makes for a great standard & easy starter for a newbie.

Frankly, I have to disagree with your assertion that weapons don't matter.

The numbers disparity you see from a weaponmaster using virtually any weapon vs the big 5 (2x Kukri, Scimitar, Rapier, Greatsword, and Scythe) is a pretty wide gulf. As a result, its somewhat rare to encounter a weapon master that isn't using one of these.

They operate roughly the same, no matter what they're wielding, but their performance is entirely dependent on what is in their hands, and choosing not to use the most optimal 5 weapons (racial weapons for non-human WMs aside), is a concious choice to perform objectively worse, in both PvE and especially PvP.

I'm 100% in favor of balancing weapons so that what is used becomes a matter of aesthetic, or tactical choice based on what is being fought. If I had a dollar for every rapier or scimmy WM I've seen, I'd be able to buy a cheap car. Incentivising variety can only be a good thing.

[Subutai]

I'm 100% in agreement Durvayas, here, with the exception that katana/bastard sword performs roughly equally to scimitar/rapier (albeit at the cost of a feat). There are a ton of weapons in NWN, but almost all of them go more or less unused on Arelith, except for in situations where the racial/class weapon has made bridged the gap, such as with Lesser Moonblades and Elder Spears (or even gone a bit overboard, as may be the case with the Orog Bastard Sword).

A few weeks back, Irongron mentioned some new weapons being added, and while I'm all for new weapons (glaive, please), there are already a lot of weapons no one ever uses. How often have you seen anyone using a heavy flail, or a halberd? Heck, even longswords are a rare find. If we worked on rebalancing weapons to make them all more or less equal, we'd see a ton more variety on the server. I, for one, absolutely love spears (although I'd like new models, don't know why the NWN spears are so short), but unless you're playing a ranger, they're really not very good weapons.

This would make not only weapon masters, but pretty much every other class on the server, much more interesting. You could make any weapon in the same size category finesseable, too, while you're at it. Weapon Finesse isn't exactly an balance-disrupting feat.

[Peppermint]

Nitpicky, but spears are actually nuts on Arelith. They can be -twohanded just like bastard swords, making them every bit as good -- albeit as a simple weapon.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

The racialization of certain weapon types for under-privileged races I thought was fantastic.

Have you seen the Orcish Blood Axe? It's insane.

Taking an approach of pushing weapons on races that people don't care to play, I think you'd see some more variety.

[Might-N-Magic]

Raise damage resistances in PvE across the board, for various types of physical damage, and you can make type of weapon matter. You can then also slow down the pace of combat, so that entire groups of mobs are not wiped out in 5 seconds or less, and people can emote more in PvE.

Hour long dungeons just so you can get a potion of warding, scroll of summon creature IV, and 23 gold at the end? Nobody's got time for that. Plus, it really doesn't help matters much other than just nullifying entire characters and having to re-adjust summons and monster encounters.

What should be done is what WotC did and add weapon styles and arts to mechanically unpopular weapons. A few examples... Wielding a handaxe and short sword/dagger gives an automatic knockdown attempt if both land in a round, dual wielding maces gives you an extra attack on a confirmed crit, and using a halberd gives you a minor dodge ac bonus and some other skill-based goodies. Stuff like that. Give people reasons to pick up crappy weapon types, nothing overpowering, but things enticing enough to make them rethink scimitar/rapier/kukri/longbow/etc. Raise things up, not bog things down...

Personally I've never found Weapon Masters appealing, because they're so situational. It's all about those criticals, yet we have entire dungeons where that's useless.

Honestly, this kind of horrifies me from a game design perspective. I'd think I'd rather build encounters and dungeons with each idiom in mind rather than outright killing 2 or 3 off. Nothing is worse than being the rogue in a boring dungeon where everything you hit only takes 6 damage and you've got nothing to do til you leave. But if I had my druthers, chests wouldn't be pickable by familiars too, which was a change we already had til it was reverted, for some unfathomable reason.

[Brandon Steel]

I don’t know how you can say weapon choice doesn’t matter. There is undeniably better weapons to use than others, especially in a class where the crits are the big focus of it. I would honestly really like them to be more balanced so other choices are viable. Some racial/alignment weapons are present, but they’re just that and force you into something specific to use that weapon type.

Do weaponmasters need to be nerfed? Not as far as I can tell, there seems to be a lot of stronger classes and builds out there. I think you just notice them so much because it’s a common class to go as melee fighter, and due to the lack of optimal weapon choices they really stand out.

[chris a gogo]

When I read the title I honestly thought it was a joke thread.

But as it apparently isn't id add WM is fine as it is it's a fighters go to prestige class.

[Shadowy Reality]

I have always had very strong opinions regarding weaponmasters, and have in the past advocated for removing either the multiplier or the crit range.

I would not say WMs is exactly straight overpowered. It is just a very simple power boost. You will notice that whenever something new comes out that is remotely melee inclined one of the first things people will think is: "Can I fit WM7 in here?". Look at the Barbarian/WM Kensais, look at the recent katana Monk/WM.

WM is very binary, it either works too well, or not very well. In PvP, against people that don't know what they are doing or have less PvP optimal builds they will make short work of them. Against people that really know what they are doing and have decent builds, they are meh. To be honest, even against seaspned PvPers WM still has a very good chance to win, due to the amount of damage they can dish out, all it takes is a mistake (being caught flat-footed for instance), to go from >50% HP to dead.

With that said, I do agree with some things said before. I think they are a lot worse now than they were some years ago. (Or maybe other classes have just risen in power to match them)

[Adam Antium]

What if we changed weapon masters to give increased damage and AB instead of increased critical multiplier and range? The damage would be based on the weapon's critical multiplier, the AB would be in place of crit range increase and be based on the weapon's base critical hit range.

Say, 1d6+1 extra damage for each crit multiplier (greataxe gets 3d6+3, greatsword gets 2d6+2, etc.), and instead of a +2 to the crit range of a weapon, you get +1 AB equal to the range of the weapon's base critical range (greataxe gets +1, rapier gets +3, etc.).

The tradeoff of crit range/crit multiplier on weapon choices, and the weapon master still being great at melee, are preserved, but the insane burst damage and awful performance against undead/constructs is all lessened. These ideas are off the top of my head, but something similar might be interesting to discuss.

And ban scythe because it's a fecking stupid weapon anyway and everybody who wields one and DOESN'T play a convincing farmer should get 0 RPR. Wait, did I say that out loud? Oops.

[Hunter548]

What if we changed weapon masters to give increased damage and AB instead of increased critical multiplier and range? The damage would be based on the weapon's critical multiplier, the AB would be in place of crit range increase and be based on the weapon's base critical hit range.

Say, 1d6+1 extra damage for each crit multiplier (greataxe gets 3d6+3, greatsword gets 2d6+2, etc.), and instead of a +2 to the crit range of a weapon, you get +1 AB equal to the range of the weapon's base critical range (greataxe gets +1, rapier gets +3, etc.).

The tradeoff of crit range/crit multiplier on weapon choices, and the weapon master still being great at melee, are preserved, but the insane burst damage and awful performance against undead/constructs is all lessened. These ideas are off the top of my head, but something similar might be interesting to discuss.

And ban scythe because it's a fecking stupid weapon anyway and everybody who wields one and DOESN'T play a convincing farmer should get 0 RPR. Wait, did I say that out loud? Oops.

WM would become crap. Other classes already give (more) +ab/damage, and aren't locked behind four feats of dubious use. That niche is basically filled by COT, which also gives saves/ bonus feats and is super easy to qualify for - and unless wm gets some TRULY ridiculous ab/damage, that's not likely to change.


Nobody in this topic has really explained why WM is overtuned, or even how. Just that "it is". I personally am not convinced that they're anything other than average, with an advantage in situations of a) under-prep, b) "shotgun" scenarios, where a fight starts fast and suddenly or c) deer-in-headlights situations. None of these are unique to a WM, and being good in those scenarios doesn't make the class overpowered. These scenarios also tend to make a victory look a lot more impressive ("Wtf, he hostiled me and killed before I could react (because I did what a lot of players do and froze up in pvp), op class!"), so people get a bad handle on how strong of a class it is.