Getting rid of party/level restrictions for writs

[xanrael]

It really is a tough one.

On the one hand I do sympathise with the level issue. It really is a pain, it stifles RP and introduces a level of meta that's annoying.

On the other hand It is also really lame to see epic levs dragging low levels around around with next to zero rp. (And yes, that happens plenty.)

Having the restriction in play is a hinderence to rp. But without it there's also a huge incentive not to rp at all. To just grab your high level buddies in discord and snatch some writs.

I hope some sort of middle ground could be discovered.

I'm just curious if something like the following could work:

If the entire party is <= level 20 they can freely group up with others that are <= level 20. If there is someone > level 20 then it follows the normal rules.

I don't know if that would be a useful caveat to add or not, it wouldn't resolve everything but might help some things without making the writs a free-for-all.

[Sea Shanties]

My gut tells me part of the problem here is leveling is more or less busywork for anyone familiar with the server. One reason it's hard to find a party is it's just easier to solo instead of wait around for a similarly leveled companion if this is your tenth character and you know what to do. New players are thus hit hardest by experienced players not having the patience or inclination to show them the ropes. There just aren't that many new players at any given time for them to find each other, either, unless the stars somehow align or it's Saturday afternoon on a weekend Steam is selling the game ultra-cheap. So it is a shame an experienced player- who probably knew how to get to the teens in less than a week and is never going to stick around with people struggling at level 5- can't walk them through a dungeon or two. My best NWN memories are of people taking the time to show me around and get a little leg up on new servers and the 3 level rule really discourages that.

And to be totally honest.. I know we level because this is a D&D game and that's what you do.. And we're not going to have constantly changing low level content to make it a challenge for experienced players to play new characters. But the 3 level rule does feel like it's pretending this is a much more difficult game than it is and that people actually need the help from higher levels when in most cases it's really just to have someone to talk to when doing your obligatory writs.

[Wrips]

I don't even waste my time looking for parties anymore, I just go solo - and most players I've seen, in general, do the same. This isn't a virtuous cycle at all.

[Vrass]

Solo is better then grouping currently, you get more xp, more gold, and get to keep all the treasure you find. Maybe add some incentives for grouping... double xp for each additional party member maybe? I almost always solo but if i am lucky enough to find a group doing the same areas i am or plan to do i will always join them assuming they have room.

[Scylon]

Maybe add some incentives for grouping... double xp for each additional party member maybe?

I think this would be counter productive unless it was restricted to within a few levels of your character. However this would bring us back to the original point of this post. Kind of a double edged sword.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

With Cortex's post about balancing, the fact writs end at epic levels, and the idea that challenging content only exists in epics,

it still presents the idea that levels 3-20 ARE just busywork, and any real meaningful PvE experiences begin with epic dungeons and areas.

[Wrips]

Having the restriction in play is a hinderence to rp. But without it there's also a huge incentive not to rp at all. To just grab your high level buddies in discord and snatch some writs.

I hope some sort of middle ground could be discovered.

This still happens. I can't really count the number of times I've seen parties running around passing by me without any rp and killing everything on sight before I could type even a couple words, therefore ruining my writ.

The only difference is that they are not that high level, perhaps?

[Peppermint]

The problem isn't the writs. It's the server mentality (and lack of enforcement).

I've been seeing this a lot lately as well, and it does make me feel pretty uncomfortable. It seems like a lot of players aren't treating Arelith like a roleplay server anymore; it's an action-adventure server with roleplay elements. If you're a new player, or not part of 'the group', you're shafted or ignored.

I feel it might be ideal for DMs to take a more hardline approach to enforcing roleplay quality. Not that we should go back to 2008, but we've swung too far in the other direction.

[Cortex]

With Cortex's post about balancing, the fact writs end at epic levels, and the idea that challenging content only exists in epics,

it still presents the idea that levels 3-20 ARE just busywork, and any real meaningful PvE experiences begin with epic dungeons and areas.

I'd not call it busy work so much as a level range that is difficult to balance monsters for, too many builds are still developing or missing vital things, which risks making them really awkward. Making too difficult dungeons or monsters pre-epic will result in people flocking to areas that are NOT difficult.

Look back some years back, when the only teens zone that were worth leveling at were Forest of Despair, Harpy Caves and Skull Crags. Other level appropriate dungeons were(and some still are) ignored in favor of the more efficient places, like Morghunn's Lair, Gnoll Cave, Talassians, etc.

If you make mobs difficult but high XP, then what happens is that it becomes a higher level dungeon or inefficient. This is simply how Arelith is designed, and it's incredibly if not outright impossible to change it without greater changes to how the system itself handles spawns and XP.

[Zan]

I'm going to add a recent experience here, I'll caveat by saying that I'm still relatively new to the server, only been playing here since about Feb 2019. Log time RPer though, and that was why I play NWN and not an MMO, RP just doesnt happen in MMOs.

A few months ago, my partner and I decided to do a relevel of our chars, her to fix some build issues and me for character development to multiclass. Before this we had a regular group that we RP'd with (a must for the aussie timezone btw, as we do not have a huge playerbase). However due to the fact we were now level 3 and our friends were level 21+ with the restrictions on the writ system, it meant they couldn't help us 'recover' from the IC injuries we sustained that we RP'd to explain the massive drop in performance.

This essentially put us into a 2 week grind mode to get back up to level with our friends so we could do things together and not just simply sit around in the Grove and RP. There was no IC reason they wouldnt help us, it was all OOC because of system restrictions.

I understand that there are folks that would abuse the system and drag up lower level chars, but perhaps the focus should be on correcting that behavior rather than forcing a mechanical solution on the rest of the server population?

Right now I'm back up to level 30, and there are lower level characters that are in factions I'm part of that require help with certain writs / areas because they are in a level band without too many other people. I'll admit I've tried to skirt the current system; buffing, or not being in party and keeping an eye on them as they do their writs because it would be completely OOC behaviour not to.

[Irongron]

This is a real issue that will get an answer from us at some stage, which despite the obvious issues might be to simply remove restrictions.

Even when I first played the 'what level r u' tells were commonplace when attempting to party for dungeons, however this perennial problem (which was itself confronted with the 'fixed level' server) is compounded by writs, as before mixed level parties could at least try to pick a location suitable to all, whereas now it is only the writs that count.

As I don't have an easiy solution to this I'm going to leave a bunch of possible ideas, almost all of which have big disadvantages..

1. Restrict certain writs to parties. You can sign up any time, but only when all 'slots' are filled can the writ begin, at which time you get 'yoinked' back to registry agent.

2. Module redesign. Post EE we were regularly approaching 250 players online, at this time a lot of starting locations suited us very nicely. Less so today. I loved playing in Skal because of the partying, and because one could find that initial community of similarly levelled characters one could stick with for life. Changing Cordor to level 8-14 (ish) and removing it as a start location would do a lot to help everyone find their first party, and thus, often a party for life.

3. Give more adventure XP for party dungeoneering, alongside an extra 5xp per tick for each party member up to 30.

4. Lessen writs overall. Instead of 3 per day make them 3 per level (with far greater adventure xp rewards). Get back to non-writ conventional adventuring the rest of the time.

4. Reduce kill xp by 20% for soloing content. (Personally I am not fond of 'punishing' solo adventuring')

5. Add a 'seeking party' option to Registry Agent. Agent would show you a list of other suitable players online with an option to send them a message telling them your present location.

6. Using offline 'events' calendar, forum and Discord coordinate regular expeditions to certain dungeons.

7. Increase level range of writs from 3 to 5.

I am sure there are many other possible ideas, but I am not going to consider those that include a 'temporary level drop'

As always input appreciated!

[Sea Shanties]

I hope punishing players for soloing is taken off the table. I think being able to do writs alone is a necessity for a lot of reasons including limited play time, playing non-peak hours or playing characters that go against the grain for whatever reason.

Perks for being in a party? Sure. But please don't take away the freedom to go it alone if you need or want.

[Peppermint]

XP reduction for solo play wouldn't impact anything. There's already a penalty built in: solo players gain 15% less XP.

[Irongron]

I hope punishing players for soloing is taken off the table. I think being able to do writs alone is a necessity for a lot of reasons including limited play time, playing non-peak hours or playing characters that go against the grain for whatever reason.

Perks for being in a party? Sure. But please don't take away the freedom to go it alone if you need or want.

Right now I'm really just brainstorming. I said I don't like anything that punishes solo play, though incentives for one can easily be interpreted as punishments for another. Still, I do agree with you here.

[Scylon]

As I don't have an easiy solution to this I'm going to leave a bunch of possible ideas, almost all of which have big disadvantages..

Looking that the options presented I think a mix of these would work well.

the one about needing a a party before it begins might be good for 20+ writs.

Most of the others save for the solo punishment one could all work together.

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

I hope punishing players for soloing is taken off the table. I think being able to do writs alone is a necessity for a lot of reasons including limited play time, playing non-peak hours or playing characters that go against the grain for whatever reason.

Perks for being in a party? Sure. But please don't take away the freedom to go it alone if you need or want.

Right now I'm really just brainstorming. I said I don't like anything that punishes solo play, though incentives for one can easily be interpreted as punishments for another. Still, I do agree with you here.

Solo play is also something that is forced upon some folk. I often log in at times with less than ten people online on servers, Skal even below 4.

[Sea Shanties]

Right now I'm really just brainstorming. I said I don't like anything that punishes solo play, though incentives for one can easily be interpreted as punishments for another. Still, I do agree with you here.

I understand.. But being able to solo is so important and I've seen servers take it away many times in misguided attempts to force people to party up. Problem is partying up is an ideal that is often much easier said than done. Even when there are 150 people online I think the level spread is so scattered, and characters so diverse that it can be difficult finding a group. Not so much when you're level 3 or in epics-- there's always a brand new character around and there's always epics looking for something to do-- but finding another level 12 to do writs with can be a wasteland because most players either scrap a character they had second thoughts on by then or blow through those levels as quickly as they can.

Anyway most of the ideas seem solid. I don't think writs should be restricted necessarily and think the rhythm we have now of somewhat rapid leveling to 21 is necessary for a game and community this old, slowing things down is just going to cause boredom with people who want to play new character concepts but aren't interesting in exploring every aspect of mid-level content yet again. The biggest problem here is new players getting left behind, I believe, not trying to funnel everyone's playstyle into something where you're always in traditional D&D parties from level 3 to 30. That sounds great on paper but in an always-on, 24/7 MMO with players all over the map skill-wise and playtime-wise it's not so realistic.

I also love the idea of finding a party at level 3 that you stick with forever but have never had that experience on ANY NWN server, some people always speed ahead and others just drop out completely and unless you're RL friends with an arrangement or something I don't see how that's possible on a server with this big of a level spread.

[The GrumpyCat]

I also love the idea of finding a party at level 3 that you stick with forever but have never had that experience on ANY NWN server, some people always speed ahead and others just drop out completely and unless you're RL friends with an arrangement or something I don't see how that's possible on a server with this big of a level spread.

This is true, and more to the point I'm not even sure it'd be very healty!

A few months ago, my partner and I decided to do a relevel of our chars, her to fix some build issues and me for character development to multiclass. Before this we had a regular group that we RP'd with (a must for the aussie timezone btw, as we do not have a huge playerbase). However due to the fact we were now level 3 and our friends were level 21+ with the restrictions on the writ system, it meant they couldn't help us 'recover' from the IC injuries we sustained that we RP'd to explain the massive drop in performance.

This essentially put us into a 2 week grind mode to get back up to level with our friends so we could do things together and not just simply sit around in the Grove and RP. There was no IC reason they wouldnt help us, it was all OOC because of system restrictions.

Ok so - I get your issue, and I do sympathise, and I see where you are coming from.. but on the other hand isn't that also an excellent opportunity to make /NEW/ friends and /NEW/ contacts? To step outside your comfort zone? Truthfully if you do that you'll find your characters have a lot more longevity I find.

Not that your point doesn't have validity, it really does. But it's also worth keeping in mind that being pushed out of your comfort zone can be a good thing.

For what it's worth, I like option 5, and option, 7. I'm... intreaged by option 4. But option 4 will slow leveling down quite a bit. I'm not convinced that such a thing is bad, if I'm honest. But it is still a 'thing' to keep in mind.

[Halibutthead]

The problem isn't the writs. It's the server mentality (and lack of enforcement).
*very relevant opinion snipped because it's up there*

peppermint has put into words the reason i used to play on this server almost daily, and now log in every month or so to check on it, fondly reminiscing about the "good ol' days."

[Sea Shanties]

I played for a few years in one version of the good ol' days, maybe roughly 2006-2008, and issues like elitism and DM favoritism were much worse than now. I don't things are perfect today but they weren't perfect then either.

It's really easy to look at the past with rose colored glasses and we humans often idealize being younger as a much better time. When the server and game were still somewhat fresh and when you were new you may have had a lot more tolerance for BS or not known of problems or their extent. Negative experiences build and make you weary of problems in the community as you get more involved but that happens with everything, it doesn't mean Arelith is rotten now.

Arelith is still something special considering the other options for D&D-style RP gaming on the internet. As an individual player it's natural for your feelings to ebb and flow and eventually want to move on but that doesn't mean things are fundamentally bad here. There's always work to do to make it better but the foundations are still very strong.

[RedGiant]

7. Increase level range of writs from 3 to 5.

As always input appreciated!

This is the easiest one and the only one I can see not causing a cascade of other problems. Win-win!

[TimeAdept]

1. Restrict certain writs to parties. You can sign up any time, but only when all 'slots' are filled can the writ begin, at which time you get 'yoinked' back to registry agent.

This accomplishes the opposite of what you want to do, and makes it even more difficult to simply do the content you're trying to do.

2. Module redesign. Post EE we were regularly approaching 250 players online, at this time a lot of starting locations suited us very nicely. Less so today. I loved playing in Skal because of the partying, and because one could find that initial community of similarly levelled characters one could stick with for life. Changing Cordor to level 8-14 (ish) and removing it as a start location would do a lot to help everyone find their first party, and thus, often a party for life

Please stop trying to force Skal as the only start location. If you're going to do so the entire island needs a complete redo in risk reward ratio as well as the actual game functions that exist on Arelith, such as speedies and a basic portal system, along with support for an actual economy, and the ability to leave it any time of the year.

Don't touch this.

3. Give more adventure XP for party dungeoneering, alongside an extra 5xp per tick for each party member up to 30.

4. Lessen writs overall. Instead of 3 per day make them 3 per level (with far greater adventure xp rewards). Get back to non-writ conventional adventuring the rest of the time.

3 sure, 4, no. People want more writs and more quest content, not less. "Non-writ conventional adventuring" means GRINDING. Your players, by far, want less of this, not more.

4. Reduce kill xp by 20% for soloing content. (Personally I am not fond of 'punishing' solo adventuring')

Insane, don't do it. Please no.

5. Add a 'seeking party' option to Registry Agent. Agent would show you a list of other suitable players online with an option to send them a message telling them your present location.

This is fine. A good idea.

7. Increase level range of writs from 3 to 5.

I'd just go back to not having any limits at all but hey-ho

[telmarael]

The problem isn't the writs. It's the server mentality (and lack of enforcement).

I've been seeing this a lot lately as well, and it does make me feel pretty uncomfortable. It seems like a lot of players aren't treating Arelith like a roleplay server anymore; it's an action-adventure server with roleplay elements. If you're a new player, or not part of 'the group', you're shafted or ignored.

I feel it might be ideal for DMs to take a more hardline approach to enforcing roleplay quality. Not that we should go back to 2008, but we've swung too far in the other direction.

This very much was my experience during the last month I tried to come back into playing here.

P.S.: I've also noticed that almost all surface shops are hogged by high-level spellcasters, because almost every single shop sells wands and random bits and odds (that are very often only useful to new players, and are sold at an unreasonably high price). But I suppose that's only an outcome of a much bigger problem that's being discussed here.

[Irongron]

It's really easy to look at the past with rose colored glasses and we humans often idealize being younger as a much better time. When the server and game were still somewhat fresh and when you were new you may have had a lot more tolerance for BS or not known of problems or their extent. Negative experiences build and make you weary of problems in the community as you get more involved but that happens with everything, it doesn't mean Arelith is rotten now.

I love how insightful this post is. Even when I joined the server, at less than a year old there were posts about how we new players weren't as awesome as the veterans.

Nothing wrong with feeling that way of course, but please spare a thought to just how insulting such posts are to new players, from everything I've seen they're every bit as awesome as those 'back in the day'.

[Huschpfusch]

Of the brainstorm can see some working, some not.
(5), (6), (7) - totally support those.

(1) Restricting writs to parties.
Do not think this would work, because in other online games then certain content could not be played due to lack of ppl because everyone flock to the golden-path-areas to get max loot. Also where there was group requirement ppl would not take RP build ppl, they would only let other powergamers join. And if one player got lag-kicked from the game the entire party was booted back to starting area.

So massive bonus for group xp (3) seems good idea as basic incentive for people to join up.
(4b) - Reducing kill xp's impact will pretty much depend on how exactly it is implemented.
Soloing should still be doable, because
a) might have trouble finding party for OOC reason (e.g. unfavorable time zone) and/or
b) might have trouble teaming up due IC reason (character concept).
But at the same time the behavior to stupidly grinding for hours and hours rushing to max lvl -
a behavior best lef to bots not humans - should be impeded.
So if it does not exist already a daily cap to xp gained by kill? Paired with the boost of xp gained via other methods (e.g. RPR bonus, crafting-stuff-xp, and introduction of new non-kill/skill-learing systems of gaining xp (e.g. musical instrument learning))...

(4a) Less writs - Noooooo!
The writ system is a neat list to get idea what is even out there to explore and do.
If anything there should be MORE writs! Especially carthography type writs that take you to non-writ areas to starting point for basic writ-moneys and for bonus you would have to travel further into dungeon. Or just take you to very scenic spots in landscape.
And more tutorial type of writs that introduce you to other aspects of the game like crafting or healing stuff or using/learning spells. They'd not give much xp and gold but maybe consumables like healing kits.

(2) Module redesign - that sure is a long-term goal. Forcing players and their very different character into fewer starting areas would get ppl together. That can be good or create tension. Think the pro outweight the contra. But rather than shifting to Skal for surface char starters (Skal is information overflow in terms of newbie starting, it is packed with buildings...) I'd favor introducing a new starting location for all surfacers all together.
One that is thematically set pre-arrival on Arelith (lvl1!) - at the end of which players get to decided where to jump to next Cordor/Brogendenstein/Skal...
So the already existing content would not need to be changed at all.
Thematically such starting area would need to combine the possibility for characters traveling to Arelith and those being Arelith-born to meet. Another small island seems proper.
Writs be split in two categories:
a) foreign characters
b) Arelith-born characters
So as a foreign character on way to Arelith main you would have to complete e.g. some Asterix style bureaucracy mayhem.
While as Arelith-born character your tasks may be to deliver food rations and waters to some shipwrecked arrivals or maybe even locating them in the first place.
Needless to say this starting area would be cut off from the rest off the servers entirely - being a one way area. No chars higher than at-the moment starting lvl (2?). So no noob-killing PVP drama. Storywise it could be explained because island is controled by some powerful adventurers organisation, or better yet: that one deity that does not allow mucha violence (What's her name again?). So village/camp are would be protected by deity = non-pvp zone, whereas outside areas are just regular adventuring zone.
Also instead of gold and xp the writs would have to give some other other advantage to counterbalance the timegained by just skipping island and grinding as usual. Those things (e.g. unique spells) should not be unobtainable after skipping tutorial island but they should be a pain to get in that method (so not subject to scribescroll n purchase from someone).

...*brainmeltdown*...