Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

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Ork
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

Post by Ork »

Of course Keen Dman GS has a higher damage due to the +2 AB. Spears have versatility to gain AC. Bards skipping on shield AC would be a very bad idea for them as their HP isn't significantly great. It's not a surprise that I've boiled down your statements when the majority of them are based on faulty mechanics.
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

Post by Peppermint »

I find it odd that Bard/PDKs are raised in discussions about weapons.

Bard/PDKs are not meleers in the traditional sense. Built optimally, they're CON-based. Do anything else and you're already kneecapping yourself.

(Though even if you want to contest this point with a STR-based valiant, this thread concerns PDKS, not bards. Are bards a problem? Nerf them.)

Incidentally, comparing spears to greatswords makes no more sense than comparing daggers to greataxes. Spears are one-handed with the option to two-hand ala bastard swords. They're not even in the same weapons category.

Furthermore, that calculator is flawed. It assumes automatic confirmation on all criticals, meaning it favors weapons with broader critical ranges more.
Last edited by Peppermint on Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Adam Antium
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

Post by Adam Antium »

You said the top spear has +3 AB and +1d12 damage.

Masterly Damask is +3 AB and +6 damage.

Guess what? I didn't put the +2 AB from two-handing into the damage calculator, which, if you had looked at the URL I gave you which shows my math, you would've known. Good job not just emotionally spamming and insulting others.

Higher AB also doesn't affect the early part of the graph, because that's the part where the user is automatically hitting. Good math skills, dude.

Saying "It's not a surprise that I've boiled down your statements when the majority of them are based on faulty mechanics." just shows that you're a Pufferfish and, well, something-something-brainpower.
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

Post by Peppermint »

I assume he didn't check the math because the comparison was baseless to begin with. The weapons serve different roles.

The only thing worse than snarking on the forum is being wrong while doing it. Chillax, my dude.
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Adam Antium
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

Post by Adam Antium »

This is NwN.

Not real life.

The weapons serve the same role - do damage.

You can one-hand a spear, but you can also one-hand numerous other more-powerful weapons, like a scimitar or rapier. You can two-hand a spear, but you can also two-hand other more-powerful weapons like a Greatsword, as I showed. The only way in which spear is even arguably superior to others is if you are relying on swapping between two-handing and one-handing, which hasn't been brought up even once so obviously isn't what anybody is talking about, especially when you, Peppermint, bring up being CON-based. Obviously you aren't going to twohand something if you're CON based, you want to turtle-up. But still, there are superior one-handed weapons to spears. Math is fun.

Image

Sent to me as a PM, but I'm having this conversation in the thread. The link isn't risky, but even so, you still don't understand how the early part of the graph shows this, nor do you acknowledge the fact that I actually forgot to give the greatsword +2 AB so that doesn't apply to the graph shown, and lastly, this message even-still is deriding me. "If you can't see x, I can't help you."

Guys.

I already covered this and acquiesced to the changes overall in a previous post before Ork started his inanity. Look at my response near the bottom, directed at Orian_666.

Read more, type less.
Orian_666
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

Post by Orian_666 »

Adam Antium wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:26 am All reasonable points/statements, I honestly have never seen someone play a PDK that wasn't a Bard (unless I'm just stupid and not paying attention to the characters around me, which is a possibility lol), but if the landscape of PDK builds is as you say, then it wouldn't make a significant change in power, just QoL, which I'm all for.

Regarding the (IMO more fun!) discussion of historical knights, in order of your list:

1. I'm not super educated on this but I was under the impression knighthood was an attained rank, something you earned, not inheritable. Of course the son of a poor farmer might have it harder to get to that status than the son of a noble, but it wasn't a part of the noble caste, it was above peasants but still not nobility. I imagine you're right that an actual knight would probably have more wealth to spend on things like swords in the early middle ages.

2. Sure.

3. Well, alright, but people have indeed been using the "it's thematically satisfying" approach for this discussion, so it seems to me that "Knight" really is being treated as "a medieval European knight" in this sense, but if you want to abandon that position regarding the argument for the change, I'm fine with that - you already made a decent case for it being primarily only a QoL adjustment and not really altering the balance of power in the builds that use PDK.

I don't mind arguing, people tend to think the word is inherently hostile but I tend to see it more as an academic term to describe people arguing their positions on an issue they don't yet agree on :)
1. I'm probably less educated on the matter tbh, lol.
But it probably was that way in many places, something earned and like you said just extremely difficult to get for the son of a farmer for example, but I just can't scratch the thought that I did hear that in at least some places or time frames that it could only be earned by nobility, if you were a peasent you'd never rise above a certain rank, you know. Back when it was believed that people with noble blood were simply "superior" people. It was probably from another game I played, or a TV show or movie or something. I'll have to look into it to be certain :D

3. Very true, when regarded in the literal sense the thematic debate really opens up a whole other can or worms, and to be honest I am more interested in the QoL side of things than the thematic one. Though it should never be fully disregarded so it is worth discussing at the end of the day :)
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

Post by Peppermint »

Yes, Adam Antium. I stated that comparing weapons is kind of odd considering we're talking about CON-based builds. The implication here is that the bard/pdk will use whichever weapon gives him the most useful stats--not the most damage. Here's the exact quote, just a few posts up:
Peppermint wrote:I find it odd that Bard/PDKs are raised in discussions about weapons.

Bard/PDKs are not meleers in the traditional sense. Built optimally, they're CON-based. Do anything else and you're already kneecapping yourself.
This is not incongruent with the statement that spears are among the best weapons in the game. I assumed (and I suspect Ork did as well) that you simply did not understand how spears work on Arelith. This is because it makes no sense to compare weapons without also considering their properties. However, I did explicitly mention that they are strong as versatile weapons, again, in the very same post:
Peppermint wrote:Incidentally, comparing spears to greatswords makes no more sense than comparing daggers to greataxes. Spears are one-handed with the option to two-hand ala bastard swords. They're not even in the same weapons category.
The weapons do not serve the same role. One is versatile and one is not.

I don't know whether you're not reading, being intentionally disingenuous, or are just feeling really emotional today. Either way: please don't misconstrue my posts to make a point.

And drop the snark.
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Adam Antium
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

Post by Adam Antium »

You're simply wrong about the weapons. All you have said here, is "the spear is better because of versatility," but that makes no sense. If you're a CON build, you're turtling up, you don't want to two-hand, you're going to be bad at it if you even try.

Don't act like my parent.
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

Post by Orian_666 »

Hookay, i'm just going to ask nicely that we all take a breath and just drop the current debate, it's gone off topic (mostly) and I think the main point of the thread has been reached anyway.

It appears for the most part it'd be a welcome change.
Thank you everyone that responded, both for or against, I appreciate constructive feedback or counter points being made because it helps point out things that may have been missed. Everyone contributed positively and is awesome :D

Now let's just hope the suggestion is considered with all of this in mind and approved, here's to Knights being able to look/act/play the part in the future on Arelith :D
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

Post by Peppermint »

Adam Antium wrote:You're simply wrong about the weapons. All you have said here, is "the spear is better because of versatility," but that makes no sense. If you're a CON build, you're turtling up, you don't want to two-hand, you're going to be bad at it if you even try.
In the context of CON-based bards: correct. As I said:
Peppermint wrote:Yes, Adam Antium. I stated that comparing weapons is kind of odd considering we're talking about CON-based builds. The implication here is that the bard/pdk will use whichever weapon gives him the most useful stats--not the most damage.
Last edited by Peppermint on Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Adam Antium
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

Post by Adam Antium »

Orian_666 wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:33 am Hookay, i'm just going to ask nicely that we all take a breath and just drop the current debate, it's gone off topic (mostly) and I think the main point of the thread has been reached anyway.

It appears for the most part it'd be a welcome change.
Thank you everyone that responded, both for or against, I appreciate constructive feedback or counter points being made because it helps point out things that may have been missed. Everyone contributed positively and is awesome :D

Now let's just hope the suggestion is considered with all of this in mind and approved, here's to Knights being able to look/act/play the part in the future on Arelith :D
Love ya, bud
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

Post by Ork »

At this point I don't know what you're argument any more is, other than to pick a fight here. While you might have acquiesced, it's clear you're unconvinced. I think that might be the very definition of acquiesce anyways. Your original argument was that PDK profs would provide free feats, I'm telling you that's wrong.

You counter with the greatest damage dealer v. a versatile spear. You would've made a more compelling argument by comparing the moonblade v. spear on the mere fact that a bard should not pick up 2handers to remain optimal - which was your concern all along. I send you a PM to conduct the discussion privately if you so care, but you're intent on bringing it to the public. That's all fine and good. I'm not one to balk from my position.

I can only assume you're getting hot and bothered because I called you wrong. If you equip GS on a bard/pdk instead of a spear, that is unoptimal. Damage graphs won't change the sway in AC that protects your narrow bard HP from being decimated from losing -6 AC. Again, I can't help you if you can't see that.
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

Post by Adam Antium »

Okeydokey.

So aside from the English 101, we're talking about something different from the changes to PDK, just so you're aware.

Again, the changes are mostly agreed-upon by everybody including me. Not because of you, mind, but because of Orian_666.

However, you said the spear is the most optimal weapon, and brought up AB and damage and such.

I showed that if it's damage you want, you're going to have a bad time. I can show this with a one-handed weapon too, so you keep your shield, if that's now what you want.


Image

The spear is not the optimal weapon.

It is a GOOD weapon. I actually use a spear on my current character. It's fun, and yes, versatile. But if you are OPTIMIZING, and as you brought up AB/damage/keen/etc. on your own in one of your initial comments in this vein, then we're optimizing DAMAGE, then spears barring the Elder Dream (since you yourself said to skip that meme) are NOT optimal compared to martial weapons.

Have a nice evening.
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

Post by Ork »

Image

Huh, would you look at that. I too can make a graph. I notice that the Giant Femur spear (which is versatile) does about the same damage as the keen Mdam scim. This, of course, is not corrected for auto-confirmed criticals, so the spear would technically be higher in play. Please correct the critical ranges for both scimitar and spear to the appropriate 1d6x2/18-20 & 1d6x3/20. For the record, the Giant Femur spear is +3 piercing and +4 slashing.

Icing on the cake? The Giant Femur spear is easily crafted and can be basin 5%'d easily for keen. Much, much cheaper.
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

Post by Adam Antium »

Image


Not sure what math you're using, these were my settings:

Image

Again, you're trying to be antagonizing. "Oh look, I can make a graph too."

You're so very hot and bothered by spear being optimal. I don't understand why you so easily got aggressive with me over this.
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

Post by Ork »

The spear is 1d6+3+4, and versatile so make it two-handed and AB to 3, as well. Don't you know how bless weapon works?
Last edited by Ork on Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

Post by Adam Antium »

Wiki says otherwise, I guess it needs to be updated? When was the spear changed?

When I add 3 more damage for the spear, I get this graph:

Image

I'm not making it two-handed to compare to a scimitar, the two-handed comparison gets to be compared to a two-handed weapon.

Why would a CON turtle want to go two-handed anyway? When would you actually do this? How is this optimal?
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

Post by Ork »

Adam Antium wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:56 am Why would a CON turtle want to go two-handed anyway? When would you actually do this? How is this optimal?
Huh, you know that's such a great question. I wonder why we're talking about weapon damage anyways. Also please amend the Giant Femur spear to have 3 AB. Thanks.
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

Post by Adam Antium »

We're talking about weapon damage because you brought it up and said spear was optimal, and I said "it's not unless you go Elder Dream, and that takes a fair bit of investment to get the necessary UMD, but martial weapons let you ignore that and just go martial."

Again, wiki says +2 AB. Are you reading this in-game and the wiki is simply out of date? Or is there something else going on here?
Last edited by Adam Antium on Tue Oct 08, 2019 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

Post by Ork »

There's a nice scroll in game called "Bless Weapon". It's pretty dope.
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

Post by Aniel »

Adam Antium wrote: Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:46 am Image
I don't really know what I'm looking at. Did you look at the image before you shared it? Sorry if that's too rude.

By the time you even start to get around any AC a martial character could possibly be sitting at the damage is within the range of +5 over the course of an entire round. That's what I consider entirely inconsequential. Something that will never be noticed or is relevant. By the time you get towards AC values that are actually realistic then the spear actually comes out on top as the superior weapon by margins that are somehow even less significant.

You didn't include much information about it. You just posted a graph with no context. Is the spear being toggled in -twohand mode? That means it gets a substantial boost to damage which makes it a lot better against low AC targets (read: unbuffed casters).

As for the earlier graph, the greatsword post was absolutely silly. Likewise the damage difference is so minuscule. What isn't minuscule is that a greatsword has -8 AC on a one-handed spear.

The entire argument comes across as a non-sequitur to suggest that because a scimitar is better vs. a subset of entities that don't exist that martial weapon proficiency is a substantial buff to bard/PDKs.
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Re: Suggestion Discussion: "(Purple Dragon) Knight + Proficiencies"

Post by Peppermint »

I don't even understand the point of this argument.

Of course it makes sense to mention damage bonuses on a weapon when discussing a weapon's strengths. "This is a good weapon, and there's even a crafted version that's excellent in its class" seems relevant to me.

It doesn't make sense to compare a versatile weapon to a scimitar or a greatsword. "This versatile weapon is a good weapon, but when two-handed it's not as good as a greatsword, and when one-handed it's not as good as a scimitar" if even accurate, is not worth disputing. That's ideal for a versatile weapon.

The most direct comparison would be to the bastard sword, which is also a versatile weapon. However, in a balanced setting, the bastard sword would edge out the spear due to being an exotic weapon.

Regardless.

Weapons regarded as optimal:

* 18-20/x2 or 20/x4
* Versatile (e.g. for fighting casters, flanking in PvE)
* Finessable
* Monk Weapons
* +4 Racial Weapons
* Useful Properties (e.g. Bonus Stats, Spellslots)

A combination of the above being better.
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