The Big UMD Change Thread

[Hunter548]

So, before I make a big post explaining things in general

here's one of the new rods


I sincerely hope this isn't at all representative of the rest of them, because that rod is trash. 100% garbage that's never worth even looting from the chest above level 10, let alone stockpiling or actually using. Horrid Wilting is just a bad spell even for normal casters, let alone off an item use.

The bigger issue with that item is that the arelith loot matrix is already filled to the brim with worthless single use spell-cast items. If the solution to the UMD problem is loot items, then that's going to be a big problem because 90% of the loot matrix is trash that's not even worth picking up out of the chest it spawns in.

Remove all the +1/+2 weapons and armor.
Remove all the items that cast offensive spells.
Remove almost all the items that cast low CL buffs (belt of warding, etc) with the exception of haste and shield
Remove all the gimmicky weapons that are strictly and clearly worse than even greensteel/regular +3 weapons
Remove all the basic crafting materials (glass, etc.) These are useful but still clog chests. No one goes to kill Abazuur and wants to find a stack of glass in his hoard.

[Sea Shanties]

I do have one thing I need to get out of my system..

A large part of the reason I play a nearly 20 year old game and 15 year old server is because it’s an old friend. I know things weren’t perfect but I knew how they worked and didn’t worry about making bad build choices in a linear game where decisions are (with few exceptions) permanent. If I’m looking for perfect PVP balance there are hundreds of much more fun and modern games out there— what I like here was the mechanics were second nature and I didn’t have to constantly research and ask questions to keep up. I’m in my thirties now with a real job and commitments, I don’t have time to be learning new games. I just want to play something I know.

I’m not saying things shouldn’t change, not at all… New spells and items and areas and classes are amazing. But huge mechanical changes that alter the way the game works make me feel like I’m not on solid ground any more. It probably doesn’t help that I’m an obsessive person either.

Sometimes there’s a landmark restaurant in your city that’s done things the same way forever and it’s loved because of it, and then some new manager decides to make the place hip and trendy and it doesn’t work because the customers liked it the way it was. I’m not saying Arelith is at that point but I can see it going there if radical changes keep coming. Maybe I’m the only one who feels this way and if so that’s fine— if it gets too much I know life on Arelith will go on without me, it did for 8 or so years when I wasn’t playing. Like I said I'm also not against change itself and don't think the server should be preserved in amber. Just.. had to say something.

[Scylon]

I wanted to toss my 2 cents into this. I myself only have one character which is a Wizard, so it is possible that I might be a little bias, so please keep me in check if that is the case.

The facts are, every character "SHOULDN'T" have access to magic, pure and simple. It is one of the 'RP but not really' things I have seen commented on when people are discussing things on the server. I see it all the time about the sheer amount of magic around the server. It is almost meaningless. As a wizard I don't really feel like I'm any different then someone whipping out scrolls and wands. In fact I feel kind of redundant as I build my guy with the idea of buffing people and my summons. But Sadly I spend most of my time in PvE just standing around watching everything else fight because spending spells on anything other then the boss is a waste typically.

Melee characters on the other hand are the ones doing the heavy lifting, and man if I get trapped without my wards up I have no chance, where a melee is ready all the time. Magic is supposed to be held in the realm of magic users, while magical items are what melee characters are supposed to use. I don't want to see fighters whipping out scrolls to dispel all my magic, remove my summons and empowering themselves like they were a cleric or mage. I want to see them going toe to toe with my dragon/gate spell.

The solution to the issue is yes, phase one, remove the ability of non magic users to use spells. It's just stupid when you think about it. But we need to arm our warriors with the power to defeat the casters.

A couple of possible solutions:

- More loot (which you are working on)
- Spell "Tokens" that you need to cast certain spells. So even if you learn it, you'll need this item in your bag to cast it. This would balance out mages not relying on the loot table. Under this, they would rely on it just like melee.
- Steeper "costs" for casting magic in the form of consumables
- More ability to do sustained damage as a mage so we aren't just standing there doing nothing. So some 'infinite' casts for levels 4, 5 and 6 spells. But these should be tied to a consumable we need to keep stocking up on.
- Commoner craft able items that are beyond the reach of adventures they can sell.
- Commoner only craftable consumables.

I'm sure there are other things I could think off as well. The biggest complaints I am seeing is "mages have it to easy, being not loot dependent" and "we can't compete with magic users without magic ourselfs". Bollix I say, we just need to tweak it a bit. Mages are going to be powerful, that i why they are mages. We just need to tone up the loot and craftables and amke being a mage more expensave.

[Aodh Lazuli]

IMO the real puzzle here seems to be figuring out the right balance between classes with infinite and finite offensive potential.

That is an interesting puzzle, yes. Although perhas the distinction to be made is between limited, functionally limited, functionally infinite and infinite. I thik it's a little more subtle and contextually dependent that simply infinite versus finite.

It could be argued that the offensive capability of anything is limited by its hitpoints total, or saves potential, or any other factor... Duration and strength need to be measured against one another. There's probably an extremely crude joke about one-night-stands that could be made here, but I'll not bother with it. That discussion is one of design philosophy which is of equal importance to the loot-drop-reliance versus assured-obtainability.

The server I used to dm for had another dm that tried something like this, but after a few weeks ended up booting the smartest people mechanically in the group out of it. It's not because he thought they were stupid, but rather because they didn't get what their role was. As the developer (we weren't fancy with different divisions, we all did whatever we could as dms) he had ideas, and the balance team was there to help him make it work. Often they took their role to be telling him he was doing everything wrong, often citing how long they have been playing the game and how leet they were at pvp and know better then everyone.

The most valuable people I know are those who tell me, with valid reasons, the manner in which I am wrong. They may not expediate work, they may sometimes be annoying... But they are far from inconveniences, as these are the people who prevent you making mistakes. Pride's a killer. I would kindly ask where the server to which you refer is now, and how it is faring.

[Ork]

The facts are, every character "SHOULDN'T" have access to magic, pure and simple.

One of the big things about forgotten realms is the prevalence of magic. In fact, I'd argue that one of D&D's cornerstones is the availability and access to magic. Magic items make the game interesting, dynamic and often unpredictable. All classes have access to magic in one form or another, and that includes Arelith. Your line of thinking has me confused because every character SHOULD have access to some form of magic. It's so pervasive throughout Forgotten Realms and Arelith that I'm genuinely surprised this is your position.

Mages are going to be powerful, that i why they are mages.

While this might be a trope of classic fantasy novels or other mediums of entertainment, Forgotten Realms has powerful wizards but also powerful ..really, everything else. While Elminster might have no equal, there are countless characters and classes that serve as reasonable foils to magic and mages. Mages aren't the only class that holds power in a setting like Forgotten Realms.

[Scylon]

One of the big things about forgotten realms is the prevalence of magic. In fact, I'd argue that one of D&D's cornerstones is the availability and access to magic. Magic items make the game interesting, dynamic and often unpredictable. All classes have access to magic in one form or another, and that includes Arelith. Your line of thinking has me confused because every character SHOULD have access to some form of magic. It's so pervasive throughout Forgotten Realms and Arelith that I'm genuinely surprised this is your position.

Perhaps I mis-spoke, but I did stipulate we should be arming our melee friends with the means to fight mages. That includes magical items which I should have said. Just not spells. Access to magic spells restricted in Forgotten Realms by the goddess of magic herself. You may recall in lore there was a time farmers were using scrolls, and she since put a stop to that along with easy access to level 10 and up magics.

While this might be a trope of classic fantasy novels or other mediums of entertainment, Forgotten Realms has powerful wizards but also powerful ..really, everything else. While Elminster might have no equal, there are countless characters and classes that serve as reasonable foils to magic and mages. Mages aren't the only class that holds power in a setting like Forgotten Realms.

If you take a look at my whole post I have stipulated counters for mages as well as buffs to melee. Even buffs for the commoners. The issue with mages is they are glass canons. They are really powerful, for a short time, where melee are at a certain level all the time. The issue is Casters for their short time are so much more powerful then everyone else with no real cost it is a little ridiculous. As stipulated in my post I think there needs to be more requirements of casters on the loot tables and more costs for certain spells in the form of consumables. In exchange for some sustained damage they can gain in the form of 'infinite' spells that cost a consumable. And I said level 4, 5 and 6 because level 3 spells are honestly just garbage at high levels.

EDIT -

Just to add to my last point there, I think access to those 54,5, and 6 "infinite's" should be for epic characters at certain levels. I don't think a level 7 should be rocking around with the ability to cast unlimited level 4 spells.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

The most valuable people I know are those who tell me, with valid reasons, the manner in which I am wrong. They may not expediate work, they may sometimes be annoying... But they are far from inconveniences, as these are the people who prevent you making mistakes. Pride's a killer. I would kindly ask where the server to which you refer is now, and how it is faring.

I think your point is a false equivalency. Sure, your best friends in life are the ones who tell you that red isn't your color or the person you are dating is a leech when that's not exactly what you want to hear. This isn't that though. If I were developing things for a server currently, and had a balance team to help me with it, I expect the relationship to be "here's my idea, tell me how to break it so I can make the necessary tweaks". When that devolves into "your idea is stupid and you are stupid for even thinking it could work" without even trying to see what the person is attempting to do, that person saying such is not a friend to anyone but themselves and their own pride/ego.

As far as CoA goes, they just rebuilt the mod from scratch and are currently in a "beta" stage where they are working out the kinks with the players they have left. I suspect they will start heavily advertising sometime early next year once they feel they are in a place where everything isn't so broken that its more likely to turn off a new player then suck them in. If you like heavy roleplay, low levels/low magic, a heavy dm presence in game, and pvp that actually means something because when you kill a player they tend to stay dead there (even though that's not explicitly a rule) give it a shot some time early next year. I'm no longer part of the team and haven't been for three years now because I barely have time to be a player these days let alone the commitment it takes to making a server go, but coa has been at this for a very long time and I suspect they will get back to a decent number for the server size in the near future.

[xalaram]

In my humble opinion;

Trash loot items as stated above somewhere are only trash because there are better options more freely available, once those better options are removed the "trash" is no longer trash. That Rod of Wilting is pretty damn cool.

I'm also very happy that UMD dump characters can no longer pull a 9th lvl spell from their back pocket, leave the big magic to those classes qualified to use it. I know that a lot of people fervently hate this, but there are other options. I am by no means an expert on character builds but if a super popular build path suddenly becomes unviable in the eyes of those that are up to date with build meta, the previously "unviable" build paths are now probably perfectly fine.

[Scylon]

In my humble opinion;

Trash loot items as stated above somewhere are only trash because there are better options more freely available, once those better options are removed the "trash" is no longer trash. That Rod of Wilting is pretty damn cool.

I'm also very happy that UMD dump characters can no longer pull a 9th lvl spell from their back pocket, leave the big magic to those classes qualified to use it. I know that a lot of people fervently hate this, but there are other options. I am by no means an expert on character builds but if a super popular build path suddenly becomes unviable in the eyes of those that are up to date with build meta, the previously "unviable" build paths are now probably perfectly fine.

I agree with this sentiment too. There is no issue with "trash loot". You don't just get the best gear from one run. The idea that the horrid rod is a bad spell is kind of silly also. It is one of the best PvE aoe spells. Magic damage, massive area and you can get big numbers on it (20d8 magic - 25d8 for a caster). A low level with this rod could clear a room with one click.

I'm more annoyed at the weight. 1.0. Need to be stack-able and lighter.

[Dr. B]

As the developer (we weren't fancy with different divisions, we all did whatever we could as dms) he had ideas, and the balance team was there to help him make it work. Often they took their role to be telling him he was doing everything wrong, often citing how long they have been playing the game and how leet they were at pvp and know better then everyone. Needless to say after a few conversations like that he had had enough, and went forward with the people that may not have been as mechanically inclined as the originals, but were far more effective because he just needed them to push his new ideas to an extreme. Not tell him how wrong he was before even trying it. As I said in the beginning of this paragraph, I have no idea how things went down here, but if it was in any way similar to some of the posts in this thread I suspect my story is relevant.

This problem could be attributed to the balance team. Conversely, it could be attributed to the developer, qua a single person who has sole decision-making authority. Perhaps that authority should not reside in one person. And perhaps the fact that the balance team consisted of several people while the developer was just one person means that the balance team's ideas should have been given greater weight.

[Aniel]

I'm also very happy that UMD dump characters can no longer pull a 9th lvl spell from their back pocket

You're a mundane. A caster summons something, be it vampires, a dragon, something planar. You die because you have no options. You have no counterplay because you misclicked on a class that wasn't a caster.

What did you used to do before?

You would use a dreaded 9th level spell, one that is very essential to the core mechanics of how the server is balanced, Disjunction, to reduce the SR of the dragon. You would then use a 7th level spell, Word of Faith, in order to have a statistically favored chance at dismissing the dragon with it. In the case of planar summons, your odds already aren't terrible. And vampires have no SR, Word of Faith scrolls kept them in check.

There are a ton of very dangerous buffs even when casted from scrolls. Many of these buffs are low level and can still be casted even with the lore for scroll changes. You know what can no longer be casted to deal with them? Disjunction scrolls to breach the spells. Of course a mage casting something like acid sheath with a very high CL means, as a melee character, you cannot attack them or you will die. Before you could use a disjunction scroll. Now you, at best, have to get 35 lore on your fighter to get greater spell breach which strips considerably less spells per use than disjunction. This means more rounds of letting a mage kill you with summons that you also cannot counter.

Mages don't care about this change. Clerics get shafted down to greater spell breach rather than disjunction, but that's not the end of the world. They have 1-9 spellcasting to make up for it.

Wizards get all of the spells you actually want scrolls of as spell slots. All of the cleric scrolls they want are 50 lore. Do you know how easy it is to get 50 lore as a wizard? 33 ranks, +14 int mod and then a simple +3 from items. They can now use Word of Faith and are exactly where they started.

So what are we left with? Martials characters being weaker than ever and returning to the 3.5e PnP roots of if you aren't a 1-9 caster then you aren't a person. There's plenty of other hilarious examples I could go into about how terrible not having access to all scrolls is. One of them is wizards no longer have a reason to dip outside of discipline. KD was also nerfed so that's not as huge of an issue. Since fighters can't use timestop scrolls they also can no longer close the distance to even try to KD a wizard. Wizards are severely lacking reasons for why they shouldn't all be level 30 wildmages.

Personally? I play a healer cleric. I was already pretty strong. I play a build variant that doesn't have UMD so my bane was always not having those breaches in the first place which made many fights near unwinnable since a very basic scroll, which people can still very readily cast with minimal lore investment would make them immune to most of my spells. I am very summon oriented. With this change, no one can realistically disjunction my dragon except for mages. A lot of martial builds are going to be weaker because they have to stretch out 50 lore to even have access to Word of Faith. If people don't invest 50 lore then I'm even stronger. I also gained access to a mediocre breach, but a breach when I had none before is still pretty incredible.

In other words we live in a world now where martials were dumpster fired and casters reign supreme. The only contenders for trying to keep up now are divine builds. Maybe a very well played 24/6 rogue/fighter can do something if their opponent makes a mistake? That's more wishful thinking though. Anything non-divine isn't worth playing.

Oh, and as a last note, other people not having timestop scrolls means it's now impossible to counter timestop. A wizard can now cast timestop with impunity and slam you into the ground with nothing you can do about it. Before, you could time it to where you'd start to read a scroll and cast timestop in the middle of their timestop to interrupt it. It was cool and took a lot of practice, not many people could do it. Now? Those people die horribly because they probably aren't a caster.

[Scylon]

You would use a dreaded 9th level spell, one that is very essential to the core mechanics of how the server is balanced, Disjunction, to reduce the SR of the dragon. You would then use a 7th level spell, Word of Faith, in order to have a statistically favored chance at dismissing the dragon with it. In the case of planar summons, your odds already aren't terrible. And vampires have no SR, Word of Faith scrolls kept them in check.

I don't understand why everyone playing melee insists on being able to cast level 9 magic. Play a caster maybe?

The server needs non spell related counters, not the ability for everyone to have access to stuff reserved for spell casters. By this logic because everyone can cast level 9 spells, Wizards need to be able to melee as well as fighters off some scroll like mechanic because it is unfair otherwise.

Another Idea I have is some new Epic feats or abilitys that are tailored to be anti mage. So like Ki strike that the WM has, but it is like a Banishment strike, or a Mords Strike or some such. Not sure how that would be worked into a melee. But you would have to pay for it by losing something else at the top end.

Hell even a new Anti mage melee prestige class or 2? Trade some AB and AC for anti mage ability. It creates a rock paper scissors effect cause you would be able to kill mages, but true warriors would kill you. You are never going to have all classes equal, it is an endless cycle.

[godhand-]

There is alot of talk of balance, but i think this actually works in favour of some of the "D-tier" classes as some would say, lifting them back up to a higher tier now that UMD is out of the picture (Which, its not, 15 UMD still gives you access to all wands).

The situation isn't "mundanes have nothing now" - Its "The tools i'm used to using are no longer a valid solution to all problems and i can't win all PvP anymore".
I firmly believe balance is "you should not have tools to win in every situation", and UMD has removed that tool from alot of people, the tool that historically has given them the edge in all situations.

Simple example as i used before, the 24barb/6fighter makes a hefty comeback here, Lifted out of "trash tier".

We're looking at a character with 750+ base HP, So IGMS/Avascular Mass isn't too concerning, even two of them in a row.
geared with 35+ fort, so your save or die spell is dependant on a huge mechanic in the game, rnJesus and whether he favours you or not.
Any 2hand weapon or double sided, you're cleaning up with 50+dmg a hit, critting for 100+, whilst sitting on a hefty 50ish AB. Even with the KD nerfs, and you don't kill the caster in that one round, concentration checks take a bad day when the damage is that high.

They won't be concerned if a caster hastes/timestops/EDKs into a disable scenario;
You've got a hefty disable-cleanser in mighty rage, and on top of that, buff to movespeed to close the distance, whilst gaining a couple hundred HP back from any damage already dealt in this time when popping rage.

Lets apply some reality to the EDK, it takes a round or two to get warmed up, it has to cast its aura before it starts doing anything, and, As above, with over 1k HP raged up, the damage output of a dragon isn't overly concerning for the first two to three rounds.

What once was a "trash-tier" option, now is the rock to a casters scissors.

The argument is then being made that casters have access to all the tools for all situations, and well i agree they do, but they also come with massive drawbacks to balance that out. I feel people are only looking at the STRENGTHS and not the weaknesses.

Squishy ~<350HP.
Long wind-up time.
Wizards - Limited spell choice, They have to be PREPARED for all situations, really limiting their capability.
The theorycrafting of "well all a caster needs to do is cast this and that and does X Y Z" doesn't take into account situational context that innately balances things, The Wizard might be prepared for adventuring, and spell slots assigned to group adventuring. You can't just rest in the middle of RP to be prepared for the pvp engagement.
This is a form of balance, because if a wizard is saving X spell slots a level for the "incase of PVP" scenario, they are hampering their PvE ability, and vica versa.

The Mundane however, is ready to go in all situations. Geared up to get down at a moments notice, Sustained power ad infinitum, as opposed to a mechanically limited (REST) caster.

Last but not least. All of this talk of balance is primarily regarding a 1v1 Situation. This is a game with the central focus of role play, where we are often in groups. The hypothetical 1v1 is great in the arena, Alas when we are grouped up, everything changes. Perhaps this is an invitation to spend more time in a group, and less time soloing content, as when the PVP goes down, with some good roleplaying and relationship building, hopefully your buddies will have your back.

I said it before and i'll say it again. Winning PvP is fun, its great, but when it comes to a story, sometimes taking a loss can create a new, fun narrative, and not being the victor in all situations enables that side of the story too.

[Cortex]

You would use a dreaded 9th level spell, one that is very essential to the core mechanics of how the server is balanced, Disjunction, to reduce the SR of the dragon. You would then use a 7th level spell, Word of Faith, in order to have a statistically favored chance at dismissing the dragon with it. In the case of planar summons, your odds already aren't terrible. And vampires have no SR, Word of Faith scrolls kept them in check.

I don't understand why everyone playing melee insists on being able to cast level 9 magic. Play a caster maybe?

The server needs non spell related counters, not the ability for everyone to have access to stuff reserved for spell casters. By this logic because everyone can cast level 9 spells, Wizards need to be able to melee as well as fighters off some scroll like mechanic because it is unfair otherwise.

Another Idea I have is some new Epic feats or abilitys that are tailored to be anti mage. So like Ki strike that the WM has, but it is like a Banishment strike, or a Mords Strike or some such. Not sure how that would be worked into a melee. But you would have to pay for it by losing something else at the top end.

Hell even a new Anti mage melee prestige class or 2? Trade some AB and AC for anti mage ability. It creates a rock paper scissors effect cause you would be able to kill mages, but true warriors would kill you. You are never going to have all classes equal, it is an endless cycle.

The meleers lost something already. Skill points to be able to do these things, time and gold in obtaining them, and less effect upon use.

Casters lose nothing. Casters can still summon monsters that are very competent in melee, and do more damage than a meleer in less time, at virtually no cost other than having levels in that class.

I don't want to touch this update at all, but this particular point that is constantly brought up was upsetting me. Don't @ me.

Addendum, the immediate above post by godhand is wrong in about every aspect, as were most of his other posts.

[Miskol]

The point is melee characters currently has no way to deal with summons. You either go try to hunt a caster who has time stop, extended greater sanctuary, and extended haste to evade you with, or you try to deal with their dragon in head on head melee, which means the caster then begins to pour offense spells against you. In effect, there is very little counterplay against someone who has access to spells that enable them be uncatchable to a person who has to get in close range. Furthermore, it is highly unbalanced when one side has all the tools to call the shots in PvP. A caster who uses time stop or greater sanctuary can effectively decide to quit the field when they do not have the advantage in battle, and can use spells to chase down a target when they wish to close in for the kill. Without access to similar effects/abilities, a mundane character has a much more difficult time quitting the field or chasing down a target.

[Aniel]

By this logic because everyone can cast level 9 spells, Wizards need to be able to melee as well as fighters off some scroll like mechanic because it is unfair otherwise.

In a high magic setting, where magic is very readily available to everyone, you need magic to counter magic. In a high magic setting if someone doesn't make use of magic they tend to be pretty weak in the face of magic.

The reason why people are so "insistent" on it is because that's how the server is balanced. I don't know how else to word it other than the game fundamentally does not work without UMD working the way it did. It's a huge unnecessary change to fix something that wasn't broken. We're simply back to the era of monks being invincible gods, except now it's casters.

Another Idea I have is some new Epic feats or abilitys that are tailored to be anti mage. So like Ki strike that the WM has, but it is like a Banishment strike, or a Mords Strike or some such. Not sure how that would be worked into a melee. But you would have to pay for it by losing something else at the top end.

Why should melee classes be forced to take these feats to exist? Feats they already cannot really afford? In the current meta of Arelith, do you really think you need to take a weaker build like a 20/7/3 Fighter/WM/Rogue and tax them of their epic feats to be able to resemble what they were doing before? This is ludicrously ill thought, I think. My apologizes if that's too abrasive.

It creates a rock paper scissors effect cause you would be able to kill mages, but true warriors would kill you. You are never going to have all classes equal, it is an endless cycle.

We already had that. Except this update removed scissors so now everyone is either rock or paper. If you think the update is good, then by all means, please play a fighter. I hope you enjoy the feeling of powerlessness the moment you end up in combat with any spell caster.

Again, as a caster cleric, this is a huge problem. I -want- mundane people to be able to cast spells from scrolls that I invested 27 levels into being able to cast. Why? Their spells from scrolls are very, very weak compared to mine and only a select few are important to the very foundations of the game. What you're suggesting by needlessly shifting the balance paradigm is a HUGE amount of work that would all need to be shipped together seamlessly. Not whatever half-baked solution this was to a problem that didn't exist.

[godhand-]

Addendum, the immediate above post by godhand is wrong in about every aspect, as were most of his other posts.

Thanks for the new signature

[Bees in Space]

I don't understand why everyone playing melee insists on being able to cast level 9 magic. Play a caster maybe?

The server needs non spell related counters

That's a great idea! But it doesn't have them. UMD was always the great equalizer between casters and noncasters because NWN just doesn't have any other tools for it. Now that we have haks, we might have other options. But if so, those other options should've been phased in before UMD was phased out. Now the equalizer is gone, but the replacement might not be ready for days, weeks, or even months.

[Aniel]

I firmly believe balance is "you should not have tools to win in every situation", and UMD has removed that tool from alot of people, the tool that historically has given them the edge in all situations.

Simple example as i used before, the 24barb/6fighter makes a hefty comeback here, Lifted out of "trash tier".

Right now, what not having the tools to win every situation means is, if you aren't a 1-9 caster and you're fighting a 1-9 caster you lose.

A 24/6 barbarian/fighter is terrible and will not have any chance at killing a mage in a 1v1.

In larger group fights they'll probably just die to AoE not even targeted at them.

[Scylon]

In a high magic setting, where magic is very readily available to everyone, you need magic to counter magic. In a high magic setting if someone doesn't make use of magic they tend to be pretty weak in the face of magic.

The reason why people are so "insistent" on it is because that's how the server is balanced. I don't know how else to word it other than the game fundamentally does not work without UMD working the way it did. It's a huge unnecessary change to fix something that wasn't broken. We're simply back to the era of monks being invincible gods, except now it's casters.

You seem to have glazed over what I said. Magic spells aren't supposed to be usable by everyone in DnD. The biggest problem is balance and if you recall I agree they need tools to fight mages.

Why should melee classes be forced to take these feats to exist? Feats they already cannot really afford? In the current meta of Arelith, do you really think you need to take a weaker build like a 20/7/3 Fighter/WM/Rogue and tax them of their epic feats to be able to resemble what they were doing before? This is ludicrously ill thought, I think. My apologizes if that's too abrasive.

I don't think it is "ludicrously ill thought" at all. I didn't state they need to take them to exist. I just don't think everyone should be able to do everything. In fact I offered (what I thought) was a compromise that would let non magic users fight magic users and restore balance, with out them also just casting what ever they like. It's not just mords they had access to. It was also every other spell. You stated that banishment and dispelling were needed and I am offering a solution that gives that.

Also I do think Wizards need a "cost" to balance them out.

[Scylon]

I don't understand why everyone playing melee insists on being able to cast level 9 magic. Play a caster maybe?

The server needs non spell related counters

That's a great idea! But it doesn't have them. UMD was always the great equalizer between casters and noncasters because NWN just doesn't have any other tools for it. Now that we have haks, we might have other options. But if so, those other options should've been phased in before UMD was phased out. Now the equalizer is gone, but the replacement might not be ready for days, weeks, or even months.

Actually I have to completely agree with this statement. Every suggestion I have made is meaningless if there is going to be a massive time where Melee classes are just bait.

[Aniel]

In fact I offered (what I thought) was a compromise that would let non magic users fight magic users and restore balance, with out them also just casting what ever they like.

Ultimately, they were balanced before. Asking them to spend -feats- to be able to do what they could do before with 15 skill ranks is a significant, colossal nerf to all martials. Why do they need weakened to such a massive extent? Why are we going into a balance nightmare of arbitrarily deciding to dumpster fire every martial, and then nerfing every caster to try to bring them back into line with martials?

You know what would solve every single problem everyone has mentioned in this thread?

UMD giving access to all of the necessary counters. If counters don't exist then there's very little reason to not play a caster.

Which is why so many people are so frustrated. They went from playing a reasonable character to be severely underpowered to the point to where they're at the mercy of everyone with a staff overnight. There's other frustrations too such as people losing hundreds of thousands or millions of gold because all of their scrolls are now worthless in a surprise update.

Who really cares about emotions in the face of the server's balance, but the issue at hand is that the server is now extremely less balanced today than it was just a few days ago. To stress that I'm really not saying "haha give me back my timestops xd", as a caster, I feel pretty awful knowing that anyone with a weapon that isn't a spellsword, battle cleric or maybe a divine build is cannon fodder.

[Aila]

I play a Melee based character (barb/WM/Rogue) and I absolutely love the change for UMD. I think it was a long time coming and the best change the server has seen in my time here.

I have been very vocal to anyone that will listen about my dislike for UMD. I like the idea that if I want to throw around level 9 spells I need to either push as hard as I can to get 80 lore or play a Caster. This was as much needed as the Monk SR/Speed nerfs.

Thank you for this change.

[Scylon]

In fact I offered (what I thought) was a compromise that would let non magic users fight magic users and restore balance, with out them also just casting what ever they like.

Ultimately, they were balanced before. Asking them to spend -feats- to be able to do what they could do before with 15 skill ranks is a significant, colossal nerf to all martials. Why do they need weakened to such a massive extent? Why are we going into a balance nightmare of arbitrarily deciding to dumpster fire every martial, and then nerfing every caster to try to bring them back into line with martials?

You know what would solve every single problem everyone has mentioned in this thread?

UMD giving access to all of the necessary counters. If counters don't exist then there's very little reason to not play a caster.

Which is why so many people are so frustrated. They went from playing a reasonable character to be severely underpowered to the point to where they're at the mercy of everyone with a staff overnight. There's other frustrations too such as people losing hundreds of thousands or millions of gold because all of their scrolls are now worthless in a surprise update.

Who really cares about emotions in the face of the server's balance, but the issue at hand is that the server is now extremely less balanced today than it was just a few days ago. To stress that I'm really not saying "haha give me back my timestops xd", as a caster, I feel pretty awful knowing that anyone with a weapon that isn't a spellsword, battle cleric or maybe a divine build is cannon fodder.

I think I can agree with most of that. I stand by my previous statements that using spells as a non magic melee/ranger is a little silly.

I agree also that making this change with out serous compensation at the same time wasn't the best of moves. a "Buy back" for the wasted cash "might" be in order.

In truth, I would be in favor of a total roll back and have phase 1 and 2 (what ever that is) delivered at the same time so non magic classes are on even footing out the door.

[Aniel]

I play a Melee based character (barb/WM/Rogue) and I absolutely love the change for UMD. I think it was a long time coming and the best change the server has seen in my time here.

I have been very vocal to anyone that will listen about my dislike for UMD. I like the idea that if I want to throw around level 9 spells I need to either push as hard as I can to get 80 lore or play a Caster. This was as much needed as the Monk SR/Speed nerfs.

Thank you for this change.

I don't know what to say other than I have to assume you don't actually play the game. This is easily among, without hyperbole, the worst updates that has ever plagued Arelith and I hope that whoever oversees it realizes that whatever intended effect they wished to have did not take place but in fact they outright ruined the server for at least half of the population.

I am not thankful at all for this change in the way that it's been presented and unceremoniously thrown onto everyone without any warning whatsoever, in the way that it ruined any resemblance of balance that existed. I'm sorry that your build isn't a caster, tough luck.

That being said I should probably stop reading this thread for now as I am actually getting a bit heated. Sorry if what I typed above came across as too harsh but I cannot overstate the severity of the absolute failure that this update was in every single possible conceivable way.

Hopefully someone goes into overtime with fixing it or it's completely reverted.