Latest Summons Change

[Orian_666]

"Epic Dragon Knight: All Dragons:
-170 hp (this puts them at 300 before CL buffs)
DR -> Down to 10/+4 (From 15/+6)
Physical DI: -> Down to 15% (From 35%)

Greater Sanctuary - Will unsummon any gate/EDK/BBoD spells currently cast ; Also, cannot cast these spells when in GS + Mummy dust"

I gotta admit this looks like instead of seriously thinking about how to address the negative feedback from the latest update a shotgun was taken to the whole thing and it's now a mess.

EDK is now, situationaly, considerably weaker than even the Ancient Elementals.

With this recent change certain WM builds can now 1 or 2 shot the EDK dragon.... that's not a good thing.

What this has done is instead of fixing the issue people had is made EDK a wasted feat as long as you have Gate and/or Summon Creature IX. It's not worth taking anymore now.

On top of this you can't use it in or before GSanc? That just doesn't make any sense. BBOD I guess it could be argued for considering it's a concentration spell and it was cheesey as hell to GSanc and summon something that can't be killed at all, but the other summons can be killed and don't need concentration, even moreso for EDK now that it's been nerfed into uselessness.

I urge you to please reconsider this change. Nerf EDK sure, but not as dramatically as this, instead give it a less drastic nerf and also lower it's duration from 2Rounds/Level to 1Round/2Levels. This way you only get it for 90 seconds at absolute maximum, and if the opposing player is clever enough and in certain zones it can be avoided for that entire duration very easily, or just outright killed even with a much more suitable nerf than this butchering of it, that's a hard counter that still doesn't make the feat pointless outside of PvP (still pointless in both PvP and PVE now though).

And please change the GSanc thing to only affect BBOD, summons will die fast and easily to a decent Meleer, I main a 30CL caster so my summons stats are as high as they absolutely can be and I can promise you that anything I summon will not be too much of a problem to a half decent melee build in the slightest. Especially if they only have to focus on that while I try to buff in GSanc, it'll be dead before I even finish.

I don't want this to sound like i'm whinging or something, i'm all for a nerf to EDK in response to the UMD changes, i've said it among friend multiple times that at the least it's duration should be dramatically lowered, but this right here is once again taking it way too far in response to the negative feedback. It needs to be done, sure, but not like this.
*Just to note, I don't even have EDK on my main character, this is not biased feedback.

[Xerah]

These were suggested by the original creator of the EDKs like a month ago

[Orian_666]

Then I stand corrected on the reasoning, but nonetheless my point remains the same, the feat is not worth taking now.
A less drastic nerf and a lower duration would be far more suitable while still making it at least somewhat viable.

Plus the Gsanc thing is a whole other kettle of fish, it makes zero sense for anything but BBOD to be blocked by it.

[Adam Antium]

I'm not entirely convinced this is awful. They still have a lot of tankiness for pve, good offense, are thematically great, but I plain don't want -any- summons that can't be dealt with by actual level 30 PC's within a couple rounds (whether it's from Undeath To Death, WoF, or critting it in the face). Summons should never be stand-ins for actual characters. That's half the problem people were complaining about with the UMD change.

Now EDK is definitively weaker than an actual epic PC. Good.

Hopefully other summons are looked at so that no caster can summon something equal to an actual PC whenever they feel like it, unless the duration and circumstances (such as BBoD requiring concentration and being rounds/level) are sufficiently prohibitive.

[strong yeet]

I don't think there's anything wrong with this at all. It's been a long time coming, and the latest update just makes it more necessary than ever.

[Irongron]

The change to EDK stats is actually unrelated to the recent updates, but has been in the works for some time. and based far more around their PVE invulnerability than PvP. Given how many hostile spawns on Arelith are built, that level of DR made them essentially invulnerable to almost everything.

I spend a lot of time monitoring how dungeons are handled, and these summons were the one-stop-shop to defeat some of Arelith's most powerful monsters, creatures that should be defeated by a concerted group effort of PCs rather than a summon while the actual players hang back and watch.

I think this puts them in a good place.

[Orian_666]

The change to EDK stats is actually unrelated to the recent updates, but has been in the works for some time. and based far more around their PVE invulnerability than PvP. Given how many hostile spawns on Arelith are built, that level of DR made them essentially invulnerable to almost everything.

I spend a lot of time monitoring how dungeons are handled, and these summons were the one-stop-shop to defeat some of Arelith's most powerful monsters, creatures that should be defeated by a concerted group effort of PCs rather than a summon while the actual players hang back and watch.

I think this puts them in a good place.

Honestly? I can use a buffed Ancient Air Elemental to tank almost any boss on the server, i've done it many times before. In fact my go to choice for fighting a boss is the Air Elemental. Air Ele, Cloudkill, and that's basically a win. Especially as a wild mage I can strip a boss of 50% of it's HP before the fight even starts, EDK was a powerhouse but there are other ways to on-stop-shop defeat Arelith's most powerful monsters.

EDK was too strong over-all, absolutely, but this change right now has made it a pointless choice. Sure it still has it's good offensive output, but so does a Deva, or a Fire or Earth Elemental, and none of them cost an epic feat or are limited to 1 use per day.

EDK is now not worth taking when you have superior options for all situations. EDK was a drop once powerhouse that could suitably fill all roles it was needed to for a short while, a little too effectively admittedly, but now it's just an inferior summon with good damage output.

I'm all for it getting the nerf hammer, but this was more like the nerf sledgehammer, I think you're about to see a lot of casters drop the feat entirely because of this.

[satan]

"Epic Dragon Knight: All Dragons:
-170 hp (this puts them at 300 before CL buffs)
DR -> Down to 10/+4 (From 15/+6)
Physical DI: -> Down to 15% (From 35%)

Greater Sanctuary - Will unsummon any gate/EDK/BBoD spells currently cast ; Also, cannot cast these spells when in GS + Mummy dust"

I gotta admit this looks like instead of seriously thinking about how to address the negative feedback from the latest update a shotgun was taken to the whole thing and it's now a mess.

EDK is now, situationaly, considerably weaker than even the Ancient Elementals.

With this recent change certain WM builds can now 1 or 2 shot the EDK dragon.... that's not a good thing.

What this has done is instead of fixing the issue people had is made EDK a wasted feat as long as you have Gate and/or Summon Creature IX. It's not worth taking anymore now.

On top of this you can't use it in or before GSanc? That just doesn't make any sense. BBOD I guess it could be argued for considering it's a concentration spell and it was cheesey as hell to GSanc and summon something that can't be killed at all, but the other summons can be killed and don't need concentration, even moreso for EDK now that it's been nerfed into uselessness.

I urge you to please reconsider this change. Nerf EDK sure, but not as dramatically as this, instead give it a less drastic nerf and also lower it's duration from 2Rounds/Level to 1Round/2Levels. This way you only get it for 90 seconds at absolute maximum, and if the opposing player is clever enough and in certain zones it can be avoided for that entire duration very easily, or just outright killed even with a much more suitable nerf than this butchering of it, that's a hard counter that still doesn't make the feat pointless outside of PvP (still pointless in both PvP and PVE now though).

And please change the GSanc thing to only affect BBOD, summons will die fast and easily to a decent Meleer, I main a 30CL caster so my summons stats are as high as they absolutely can be and I can promise you that anything I summon will not be too much of a problem to a half decent melee build in the slightest. Especially if they only have to focus on that while I try to buff in GSanc, it'll be dead before I even finish.

I don't want this to sound like i'm whinging or something, i'm all for a nerf to EDK in response to the UMD changes, i've said it among friend multiple times that at the least it's duration should be dramatically lowered, but this right here is once again taking it way too far in response to the negative feedback. It needs to be done, sure, but not like this.
*Just to note, I don't even have EDK on my main character, this is not biased feedback.

So being able to gsanc and have your summon bear maul mundane characters was ok, but if those meleers can actually kill the summon it's totally unfair?

Lol

Hello shoe, meet the other foot.

[Adam Antium]

If anything this just tells me "more summons need to be nerfed, also cloudkill should be nullified on a successful save"

[Orian_666]

So being able to gsanc and have your summon bear maul mundane characters was ok, but if those meleers can actually kill the summon it's totally unfair?

Lol

Hello shoe, meet the other foot.

I don't know what you read but I never said it was okay?

In fact I stated that i'm all for a nerf to EDK, just not a complete gutting of it. Make it so they're killable my Melee, but now they're just /too/ weak and it's made the feat a waste.

And please can we talk about this like adults instead of just being childish.

[Orian_666]

If anything this just tells me "more summons need to be nerfed, also cloudkill should be nullified on a successful save"

There are a lot of AOE ground effect spells that need a save to stop their effect, that's a whole other story but I totally agree with you on it.

[Adam Antium]

Honestly I feel like most non-optimized characters should not be able to solo most epic dungeons.

Why do I say "non-optimized?" Because if you make it so that NO characters can solo most epic dungeons, that means you're either making it UNBELIEVABLY challenging, or there are some weird mechanics at work that aren't challenging but literally just gatekeep the area from being solo'd (not that that's always a bad thing, but it's not Arelith's style).

There will always be some characters built just right to solo every dungeon. It's impossible to prevent that, and we shouldn't want to prevent that.

But I never liked the fact that every Druid or every Wizard or every Warlock (I think? Lol I've never played a warlock, but I hear things from other players) could reliably farm epic areas easily and alone.

My druid/wizard friends are all going to disown me now. RIP

[Scylon]

I agree with the changes to GS. That spell is Bull crap OP. Dragon Changes not so much. I think I would have rather seen PvE encounters tweaked.

I haven't done my rebuild yet as I was waiting for the dust to settle. Happy I have held off because OP is correct. If the dragon isn't going to last the full duration of the spell why take it as a feat? I honestly don't like gate's duration is so short. I would rather see it get a little nerf it it can last longer (turns?). EDK is an epic spell. It's advantage over a level 9 is duration and a it more power.

Still, a melee needs to be able to kill it also. maybe I'm being silly here. not sure.

[Chosen Son]

I like this quite a bit.

This nerfs the EDK for pve, making it more of a forget and fire missle/force multiplier in a pinch, instead of something that lets mages solo content they should not be soloing with ease. And while the summon remains powerful in pvp from a damage/ab stand point, the mage needs to remain vulnarable to employ it (Unless they are a shadowmage and can still stealth and control both the dragon, and bbod safely.)

[Orian_666]

Don't forget Healer Clerics!!

I do agree with you to a large extent, but like you said ultimately it won't be possible to stop it entirely without straight up breaking the game.
And even though I have solo'd most epic content on the server as a mage, it wasn't always "easy", I had to do things very carefully and tactically for it to be possible.

[Scylon]

Don't forget Healer Clerics!!

I do agree with you to a large extent, but like you said ultimately it won't be possible to stop it entirely without straight up breaking the game.
And even though I have solo'd most epic content on the server as a mage, it wasn't always "easy", I had to do things very carefully and tactically for it to be possible.

This.

There is no issue soloing stuff. I'm not really epic, but when running alone I have to be very careful, cause one screw up and I'm dead. I usually keep 5 invio spells banked to assist is scrw ups.

[Apokriphos]

I am of two minds about this change. I feel that the Epic Dragon Summons 'were' ridiculously durable summons for a pvp perspective that made it dangerous to engage casters. EDK deserved a correction because it can critical for 120 damage easily, comes out hasted, super durable, and is hard to prepare for since the type that emerges is always a surprise.

However, summons that last the full duration (unlike gate and EDK), are Absolutely Essential for a subset of mages that cannot cast evocation spells at all. My first character spent the vast majority of his lower levels contributing almost nothing to the party but his summon, as his spells did no damage and lasted a hair's breath longer then it took to cast them. He was also always at the cusp of being just able to rest again, for that brief five minutes of usefulness besides his summon.

I cannot even imagine how difficult it would be to adventure with him again if his normal long duration summons were weakened.

Without Evocation, you really realize how difficult soloing can be. If your summon caves in, so you do.

My summon was the PC, and my character his NPC companion.

[Subutai]

I'm not sure on the EDK. My gut tells me it's been nerfed a little far, but I'm not experienced enough with EDK to judge to any real degree, so I'll leave that to the smart people.

I do like the GS nerf. I've never been a fan of how easily casters could cast GS, summon up whatever, buff it like crazy, and then more or less sit back while nothing could touch them. No one else has the option of dealing damage and being completely safe from harm, so forcing mages to decide between summons and GS makes sense to me. GS is specifically supposed to fail when the caster performs a hostile action, and letting a summon do the work always seemed like a loophole.

[Vrass]

Summons should be more powerful then the summoner... thats the whole point and reason for being a summoner. Dragons especially, they should always be ten times stronger then any character because dragons are stronger by default. People being able to easily take on dragons by themselves and beat them is directly contrary to how it works in pnp, no single person ever defeats a dragon alone, even Elminster cant do it and he is the single most powerful person in all of Faerune. Only way it should be possible is with groups and even then your chance of winning should be no more then 50% at best. Dragons are gods compared to non-dragons, its as simple as that.

[RedGiant]

With this change I think several things need re-thought.

First, why don't we just dump "burst-summons" altogether? The original creator thought they should be the summoning equivalent of a fireball. We have a school for that...evocation. With a significantly weakened EDK, we should go back to turns or even hours for such summons. This is the only non-necromantic, non-evil (possibly) epic summons available to a wide variety of casters. Let it be an actual summons. I would love Gate to get re-thought while we're at if, but BBoD is probably fine as is because...reasons.

Second, since you can do significantly less with greater sanctuary now, how about returning it to the normal duration (or somewhere near)? I currently play a 28th lvl Wizard, and many times I can't even leave the area before it runs out. This is ridiculously short.

[Subutai]

Summons should be more powerful then the summoner... thats the whole point and reason for being a summoner. Dragons especially, they should always be ten times stronger then any character because dragons are stronger by default. People being able to easily take on dragons by themselves and beat them is directly contrary to how it works in pnp, no single person ever defeats a dragon alone, even Elminster cant do it and he is the single most powerful person in all of Faerune. Only way it should be possible is with groups and even then your chance of winning should be no more then 50% at best. Dragons are gods compared to non-dragons, its as simple as that.

Unless you're advocating that every caster on the server has access to a summon so powerful that they all require a large party of epics to beat, I don't see how this is helpful.

Unrelated, I do have to say that the EDK does look less powerful now than other non-feat-based summons, which is ridiculous given that EDK costs a feat. Maybe just dropping the SR to make it banishable without Mord's would be good enough?

[Vrass]

Obviously not lol. But dragons were fine as they were and messing with the other summons is not needed nor would it make any major difference. As the saying goes... if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Scylon]

no single person ever defeats a dragon alone,

I don't agree with this at all. A fighter, paladin or what ever should be able to go toe to toe with a dragon. You need to give way a little on hard core PnP for fun.

If I can summon a dragon, a warrior should be able to fight it.

[Orian_666]

Summons should be more powerful then the summoner... thats the whole point and reason for being a summoner. Dragons especially, they should always be ten times stronger then any character because dragons are stronger by default. People being able to easily take on dragons by themselves and beat them is directly contrary to how it works in pnp, no single person ever defeats a dragon alone, even Elminster cant do it and he is the single most powerful person in all of Faerune. Only way it should be possible is with groups and even then your chance of winning should be no more then 50% at best. Dragons are gods compared to non-dragons, its as simple as that.

Unless you're advocating that every caster on the server has access to a summon so powerful that they all require a large party of epics to beat, I don't see how this is helpful.

Unrelated, I do have to say that the EDK does look less powerful now than other non-feat-based summons, which is ridiculous given that EDK costs a feat. Maybe just dropping the SR to make it banishable without Mord's would be good enough?

I'd go even further tbh.

Current change:

Epic Dragon Knight: All Dragons:
-170 hp (this puts them at 300 before CL buffs)
DR -> Down to 10/+4 (From 15/+6)
Physical DI: -> Down to 15% (From 35%)

What I think is more fair and makes more sense:

Epic Dragon Knight: All Dragons:
-120 hp (this puts them at 350 before CL buffs)
DR -> Down to 15/+3 and 9/- (From 15/+6)
Physical DI: -> Down to 25% [20% if possible] (From 35%)
Duration: -> Down to 1 Round / 2 Level (From 2 Round / Level)
SR: -> Down to 28 (From 32)

What this does is set it to be /almost/ on par with all the main strengths of each of the elemental summons, not more powerful in all regards by a long shot but ultimately any role an Ancient Ele can fill the EDK can still fill, but just for a very limited time.
What this does is turn it into the "Panic Button" it's meant to be, not the best option to clear content, but the best option when the poop hits the fan and you need to drop a dragon to save your arse. Which makes it a valuable, but not game breaking, feat.

It straight up needed a nerf that's for sure, UMD change or not, it was simply too strong. But it could have been nerfed a lot more gracefully to keep it as a worthwhile feat investment.

[Scylon]

Epic Dragon Knight: All Dragons:
-120 hp (this puts them at 350 before CL buffs)
DR -> Down to 15/+3 and 9/- (From 15/+6)
Physical DI: -> Down to 25% [20% if possible] (From 35%)
Duration: -> Down to 1 Round / 2 Level (From 2 Round / Level)
SR: -> Down to 28 (From 32)

Why would I waste a point summoning that? It's got a shorter duration then gate and no real benefits? Even has less SR then gate.

Unless of course you want Gate brought inline as well in which case we can just toss them both in the bin.