New Item Concerns!

[Peppermint]

So I've just received reports that players are discovering stacks of ammunition with high level spells imbued into them:

- Bolts of Mordenkainen's Disjunction
- Shurikens of Word of Faith
- Shurikens of Slay Human*

(* Death Ward does not block this property, by the way.)

Consider me massively concerned. One player has already reported collecting 110 Disjunction bolts, which can be launched at a rate of five times per round. Or six times per round, if those bolts are converted into arrows via a tinker.

I'm sure the intentions are good, but the latest loot additions (i.e. first Epic Spell Rods, now this) have wildly missed the mark. I strongly urge the team to remove these from the matrix immediately and recall all items discovered via script.

I would further urge whichever team member has been responsible for these updates to seek feedback before pushing further items along these lines.

I cannot possibly overstate how damaging this is.

[Aodh Lazuli]

It would appear the intention is to give non-casters some counterplay to casters.

That is a good intention.

However, the removal of certain spells from the reach of non-casters through the UMD/Lore change, did not impact on Archers and ranged characters nearly so much as it did melee.

This has been stated - Like... A lot.

Five or six mords per round is a terrible idea.

Seven slay human per round is an even worse one.


Please, Please, Please, Please, Please, Please, Please, Please, Please, Please, Please, Please, Please, Please, Please, Please, Please be careful, and create a team who are required to do a balance pass on all future balance adjusting updates.

Hell, I will volunteer to assist in creating a good and effective model for this, and recruiting the staff to do it.

[Zavandar]

i'd join it

[Aren]

I personally haven’t found stacks of these, only singles. They include mords on hit with +5 to hit, WoF on hit with +5 and slay human on hit, + 5 to hit.

If what you’re saying is true and these drop as stacks, that absolutely must be an oversight. I cannot believe that stacks of these were put into the loot matrix on purpose.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I think for a balance team, if considered, would have to have a balanced amount green light power. If you want nothing to pass without their approval, said team isn't going yo happen or to be practical unless said team is doing the content work. If they were an opinion team, that be fine. The way some people have been animated recently, I have troubles seeing it work.


As for intentions, as stated earlier by Irongron certain items will be on rotation so all these projectiles popping up will just be a shake things up occurence. I agree though its melee that needs more help. But i think the intention is that pvp cant be calculated in a Closed vacuum and "anything could happen". I could be wrong, but I am assuming these items will be rotated ones and not always available.

[Kshatriya]

I think for a balance team, if considered, would have to have a balanced amount green light power. If you want nothing to pass without their approval, said team isn't going yo happen or to be practical unless said team is doing the content work. If they were an opinion team, that be fine. The way some people have been animated recently, I have troubles seeing it work.


As for intentions, as stated earlier by Irongron certain items will be on rotation so all these projectiles popping up will just be a shake things up occurence. I agree though its melee that needs more help. But i think the intention is that pvp cant be calculated in a Closed vacuum and "anything could happen". I could be wrong, but I am assuming these items will be rotated ones and not always available.

I'm not really sure how relevant it is whether they're rotated or not. I've seen the screenshot and people talking about having gotten a stack of them and 110 of them is going to probably be enough for a long time. Or at least a lot of very relevant PVP moments for the character. I'm not truly a fan of these items even being implemented in single drops though admittedly that's far better than in large stacks. If it's some kind of mistake then that's well enough I suppose but I hope the idea isn't going to be to rotate out items that wind up as powerful as this since no doubt the smart players will just hoard them or know how to best use them to get the most advantage/least waste out of them.

[Peppermint]

Right. Even if these are intended to be limited, it's still a problem. Players can and will hoard them. Their only practical use will be to win important PvP events, so they will keep them just for that purpose.

Again, I'm sure the intentions are good. But whichever developer has been working on these could probably use a guiding hand from a more experienced team member.

[DM Eyeball]

Right. Even if these are intended to be limited, it's still a problem. Players can and will hoard them. Their only practical use will be to win important PvP events, so they will keep them just for that purpose.

Again, I'm sure the intentions are good. But whichever developer has been working on these could probably use a guiding hand from a more experienced team member.

The feedback is appreciated, it really, really is. But please, please, please... Keep assumptions and foresaying out of it. This has gotten out of hands in a number of topics. The UMD/Lore change has not been the end of the world, and this won't be either.

[Aodh Lazuli]

I think for a balance team, if considered, would have to have a balanced amount green light power. If you want nothing to pass without their approval, said team isn't going yo happen or to be practical unless said team is doing the content work. If they were an opinion team, that be fine. The way some people have been animated recently, I have troubles seeing it work.

So, when I said "good and effective model", of course I would want to limit its areas of responsibility, how it communicates and interfaces with the rest of the team - And set up the systems and structures by which this could be done effectively. Of course, how it manifests itself in public is also pretty important.

By necessity, a balance team is one that conducts itself diplomatically and with restraint. It needs to be a voice of reason, careful dialogue, and moderation - As well as being rigorously objective with the only element of the game to which objectivity can be reliably applied.

[Orian_666]

Even allowing these as a single item when found doesn't make sense.

Paladins had their Holy Sword ward shredding reduced to once per flurry for the exact reason these shouldn't exist, it's too powerful.

If a single archer (or almost anyone for that matter) hoards these, which is very easy to do by the looks of it, then they are now the new Holy Sword Paladins, or arguably even more OP.

In a batch of updates that nerfs something for being too OP (Paladin Holy Sword breaching) and then grants a stronger version of that ability to anyone that can use a ranged weapon it does not inspire confidence in the decision making that's going on behind the scenes.

I want to believe the team has a direction they're going in and it'll all make sense when we get there, but every time something like this comes to light it becomes harder and harder to stand by that.

[Hunter548]

Right. Even if these are intended to be limited, it's still a problem. Players can and will hoard them. Their only practical use will be to win important PvP events, so they will keep them just for that purpose.

Again, I'm sure the intentions are good. But whichever developer has been working on these could probably use a guiding hand from a more experienced team member.

The feedback is appreciated, it really, really is. But please, please, please... Keep assumptions and foresaying out of it. This has gotten out of hands in a number of topics. The UMD/Lore change has not been the end of the world, and this won't be either.

I'm confused by what you mean here.

Should we not assume that the team is working under good intentions, or is this a more general admonishment that these things aren't as unbalanced as we think they are?

[Peppermint]

With due respect, Eyeball, I've made no accusations on this thread, aside from the singular assumption that the developer in question was acting with good intentions.

I am doing my best to maintain a civil tone, but if the team's position is that foresight is not welcome on these forums, then I am afraid I simply cannot comply.

[NauVaseline]

The feedback is appreciated, it really, really is. But please, please, please... Keep assumptions and foresaying out of it.

There's a huge difference between greek High-On-Hallucinegonic soothsayin' and plain old common sense educated "guesses". What you have labeled as the former is in fact the latter. It's optimal behavior. No joke, probably some of the easiest behavior to predict. Actin' like people won't do this, if these drops are real, is incredibly naive

[DM Eyeball]

I may have formulated my post a bit too hastily. What I mean to say is:

Yes, there are good intentions behind these developments, and there's an aim to give back if changes are received poorly, which may be due to them being very drastic (which is certainly the case, no doubt about that), unexpected (also, fair point there) or putting certain concepts/characters into a tricky spot.

My point is, even if they have appeared, there are no impressions yet as to what is actually developing from these changes. As far as I know, we haven't had any issue with mages getting ripped to shreds with dispel or insta-kill ammunition, for example. Yes, the issues outlined are possibilities, but as long as they're not an actual issue (again, not ruling that out adamantly), consider them with a grain of salt. That grain of salt being a broad test IG.

What I see a lot, and what frustrates me immensely (and I'm not even part of the development team in any capacity) is that the reactions seem very rushed and ... angsty, at times, I guess?

Taking a step back and reconsidering certain expectations may go a long way to establish a more constructive discussion, I think. I'm not saying no one should voice their concerns, opinions and insights, but speculations often make these threads hard to navigate.

EDIT: that was kinda derailing. Please proceed

[NauVaseline]

You don't need to take a step back to know what rapidfire mordenkainen's will do. I remember the Erinyes Archer's of Minauros.

[Cortex]

There's many people who played this game for years and years, including PvP servers. Nobody is re-inventing the wheel with the new item drops, it doesn't take "experimentation" to know what will happen with them. People are not speaking out of their asses when they say this isn't good, and why.

[Orian_666]

I'm trying my hardest to find a way to say that these will absolutely be stockpiled and used to their fullest effect without also sounding condescending or outright mean and i'm having a very hard time of it.

This is my third attempt, two previous comments deleted and reconsidered....

But to put it simply;
I can see no scenario where the option to stockpile an item that can be used to shred every single defensive buff off a person in a single round of combat, from range, while also doing damage if you're built for those ranged attacks will not become the new Meta and is not immensely more powerful than previous methods to do so. It baffles me that the "lets wait and see" route was even considered in this.

And that's just the Mords ones, there are others to consider. Unsavable Summon dismissing and AOE blinding from afar, unwardable death on hit from afar, all multiple times per round...

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

With due respect, Eyeball, I've made no accusations on this thread, aside from the singular assumption that the developer in question was acting with good intentions.

I am doing my best to maintain a civil tone, but if the team's position is that foresight is not welcome on these forums, then I am afraid I simply cannot comply.

Peppermint, out of all the outspoken mechanics people, I have always found your tone the most pleasant.

I understand things have gotten a little tense recently, but i appreciate how when thingsnare prime to escalate worse, you actaully keep civil. From having another thread that just wanted to discuss mechsnic implications (I tried engaging on some of it).

I don't think lack of foresight is not welcoming. I think overwhelming flood of opinions and discussion mixed with various people being very passionate has gotten to be a lot. There is overwhelming amounts of feedback to sift through and its easy for text to be read with wrong tone as tensions rise.

I appreciate your new threads, the are to the point, concrete and create specifics to discuss.

Though this one may have come across a bit alarmist, I think is generated a few worthy replies (though mixed with a lot of cynicism). Like how melee need tools more than archers for mages and this just makes stockpiled archers dispelling gods against all classes.

[Apokriphos]

I'm trying my hardest to find a way to say that these will absolutely be stockpiled and used to their fullest effect without also sounding condescending or outright mean and i'm having a very hard time of it.

This is my third attempt, two previous comments deleted and reconsidered....

But to put it simply;
I can see no scenario where the option to stockpile an item that can be used to shred every single defensive buff off a person in a single round of combat, from range, while also doing damage if you're built for those ranged attacks will not become the new Meta and is not immensely more powerful than previous methods to do so. It baffles me that the "lets wait and see" route was even considered in this.

And that's just the Mords ones, there are others to consider. Unsavable Summon dismissing and AOE blinding from afar, unwardable death on hit from afar, all multiple times per round...

I agree with this statement completely. These items are -far- more powerful then any rod, and can be used by any dedicated arcane archer to almost certainly remove all wards on the breach list within 1-2 rounds.

[Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia]

Peppermint, out of all the outspoken mechanics people, I have always found your tone the most pleasant.

I understand things have gotten a little tense recently, but i appreciate how when thingsnare prime to escalate worse, you actaully keep civil. From having another thread that just wanted to discuss mechsnic implications (I tried engaging on some of it).

I don't think lack of foresight is not welcoming. I think overwhelming flood of opinions and discussion mixed with various people being very passionate has gotten to be a lot. There is overwhelming amounts of feedback to sift through and its easy for text to be read with wrong tone as tensions rise.

I appreciate your new threads, the are to the point, concrete and create specifics to discuss.

Though this one may have come across a bit alarmist, I think is generated a few worthy replies (though mixed with a lot of cynicism). Like how melee need tools more than archers for mages and this just makes stockpiled archers dispelling gods against all classes.

Ditto Malcolm's remarks on the value of these threads and their breakdowns, in my eyes too.

[NauVaseline]

A big update like this is going to draw 'overwhelming' amounts of commentary. There is absolutely no reason to stop commenting.

[Morgy]

I would also have a concern with the mords/wof stacked missiles if they really are being collected in such volumes already. Five mords or more in a round should not be possible, that’s far superior to any breaches an epic mage can supply.

Personally I have only found one such item, a slay human shuriken in a 1x stack.

[Quidix]

Even if these dropped in small quantities, they would over time be stockpiled and traded through shops. One would only need 5-10 to absolutely wreck any PvP encounter.

[Peppermint]

Arelith does seem to be trending toward a kind of balance, I suppose.

When casters and mundanes both have the tools to one shot without counterplay, it doesn't really matter what you play. Every build is viable.

I wouldn't call that ideal balance, however.

Urging players not to sensationalize is all well and good, but many of us have the experience to know exactly how this will play out. We're not exaggerating or being hyperbolic. Arelith is on a worrying track.

Given the recent essay from Irongron, it really is a shame to see more of the same right afterward.

[Scylon]

I'm just Dumb founded at this. Truly. Some one made a joke on the discord the other day about the next change being an on hit mords. I thought it was funny at the time, but I'm not laughing now.

These need to be pulled from the loot tables ASAP to attempt to mitigate the damage they are going to case later. All the new rods too I think as these rods completely bypass the changes you made to the scrolls.

I have tried to see the direction the server is going, but now I think some insight into what is going on would be nice. I LOVED the changes to scrolls because It felt like it made sense. However I wanted non magic users to have some tool or new feats to be able to fight with casters. However I need someone to explain to me:

Why cause a massive headache on the server making the changes to scrolls, only to just give out max level and even epic spells on rods that don't even requires lore or UMD? And now you are just giving on hit mords and slay?