Alignment settings and Balance,

[Anomandaris]

not to be that guy, jordenk, but welcome to public server video gaming.
we gamers are not known for our grace. sure, there are graceful and humble folk among us, but you'd have to have a lot of willful ignorance to believe that it's a more than a tiny minority.
hell, i don't like to lose, either. it took a decade of competitive MtG playing to learn to be happy for someone when they won. but that's still not the same thing.

I know, and I don't mind Still having a blast!

[Kuma]

We should work to keep surface races out of the underdark, Yes, Humans can fit there but it does in my opinion not further the health of the server.

nah we've already had this discussion and it's case closed.

[Apothys]

Granted, tag systems that out you as a pirate, an outcast or any other kind of "bad guy" only enables people who look at tags and go "hurrdurr bad man", thus throwing into the trash any kind of RP involving learning of the character, their motives or the acts they perform. Put the tags in the bin.

I play an Outcast. I get a lot of "Leave or die." threats. Even in places where I'm allowed to be. I've heard the same from other players. People don't know our supposed crimes. They don't know the character. They read a tag on our description. That's it. That's not good RP and that's not fun on the end of the player of the Outcast/Pirate.

The tags are just an invitation for people that like to pvp to have an excuse to kill. The tags do more harm than good. The tags kill RP and cause anger and frustration.

I totally agree with this. Just because we have tags on us, or a bad reputation in game due to playing an evil character, we should not be stopped from RPing each encounter or situation first before PvP. Otherwise if this "prepare to die heretic/outcast/pirate" behaviour is promoted then it is also promoting the heretic/outcast/pirate to do the same thing and then were not a RP server anymore.

[satan]

We should work to keep surface races out of the underdark, Yes, Humans can fit there but it does in my opinion not further the health of the server.

nah we've already had this discussion and it's case closed.

Says who?

About 50% or more of ud players are human at present. It's very bad for immersion.

And why shouldn't they all roll humans? A mechanical advantage plus being the only race that can go literally anywhere without persecution.

+1 to making outcast a reward, and not being able to start as a slave at all.

[Ork]

Humans do not have a mechanical advantage in the UD. This has been brought up time and time again, and shot down time and time again. Eat your heart out, I guess.

[Kuma]

We should work to keep surface races out of the underdark, Yes, Humans can fit there but it does in my opinion not further the health of the server.

nah we've already had this discussion and it's case closed.

Says who?

says the devs, really. unless irongron commits a colossal u-turn it's excessively unlikely to happen. the first outcasts won their right to live below despite a concerted OOC civil war from the then-UD community and i'm really tired of the discussion. a lot of players put a lot of effort into making it happen, and i don't even mean strictly ICly. the griefing campaign that was waged against the early outcasts should not make a return. discussions questioning the validity of concepts that the devs and DMs have, time and again, said are valid only serves to embolden those efforts.

furthermore, there's a lot more limitations and roadblocks against outcasts IG and IC now, they're now quite disadvantaged if they try to live among the surface.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Im more bothered how UD has no way to tell if a human outcast is actaully a human outcast.

Id support minor reward for outcast only because it seems fair considering hobgoblin requires a minor. Its really easy to get a minor too and Adundor is no longer lifeless

But I agree, this discussion has already been beaten to death in the past. Adundor is now a darker version of pre-reckoning Cordor with a bunch of Drow added.

[satan]

Besides the immersion problem, it's just sorta lame that UD races have to sneak around and are not allowed to even set foot in surface towns, yet surface races(esp human) can free reign the entire server.

This amounts to a serious mechanical advantage that requires further review imo.

[Diegovog]

Im more bothered how UD has no way to tell if a human outcast is actaully a human outcast.

I disagree there. In my opinion that's the very beauty of it. You have to RP to find out their true nature, not just easy-tag someone. Even races carry a certain degree of tags. You se a Drow in the Hub and nobody will bait an eye. But a human people will naturally be suspicious.

Besides the immersion problem, it's just sorta lame that UD races have to sneak around and are not allowed to even set foot in surface towns, yet surface races(esp human) can free reign the entire server.

This amounts to a serious mechanical advantage that requires further review imo.

But this is what makes the UD races exactly what they are. It's not limiting, it's defining. And in my own personal experience the characters who usually "befriend" people everywhere just because they have access to are not the deep, interesting and memorable characters we grow to love.

[xanrael]

I don't really mind the tags, though I think the Sencliff start could use some minor tweaks given how the system works.

Sencliff start at level 3 leaves you going to Cordor or Brog for normal writs and you can be in a Minority Report situation where you're not high enough level to survive NPC spawns on a boat to commit piracy but are treated the same as notorious pirates. So you either intentionally don't get inked, circle-grind the crap out of some of the areas in Sencliff with a few non-repeatable pirate writs that don't involve boats and are hidden at the back of the pirate writ selection list, or hope that there is no one that decided to put points into Lore when it became a near god-tier skill. It's fairly counter-intuitive to newer players.

I don't think that much has to be changed personally even if they want to keep in the tags. Have the non-boat writs on a separate normal writmaster and repeatable until maybe level 10.

[Nobs]

I dont need 'Tags' to state im a pirate...
Would rather let my toons ic actions define that sort of thing and not some silly tag that tells every one and their mum im a bad man with out any one actualy have seen said toon do any 'evil' stuff.

Tags like that harmper rp , they do not add any thing only take away like detective rp and actual guard work.

[satan]

But this is what makes the UD races exactly what they are. It's not limiting, it's defining. And in my own personal experience the characters who usually "befriend" people everywhere just because they have access to are not the deep, interesting and memorable characters we grow to love.

Sure, that's true.

In UD lore, the opposite is also true. Humans, elves. Halflings, etc should, canonically, be receiving the same 0 tolerance treatment, or at least be constantly on guard, in the dark.

Instead we have gaggles of players that ultimately just want that extra feat and the ability to go anywhere they want unhindered hiding behind the 'trade city' excuse.

I mean, it could be left up to the players to to decide what happens, but there are actual dm enforced rules against UD races going into surface cities(understandably. The npc guards should be attacking you. But andunor also has npc guards..and they don't seem to mind free and uncollated elves walking around?

[Ork]

Besides the immersion problem

What immersion problems? Spend some serious time in forgotten realms lore and you'll see that a number of underdark cities have a sizable human population.

This amounts to a serious mechanical advantage that requires further review imo.

What you described is not a mechanical advantage in the slightest. That is a roleplay "advantage", and I use that word loosely because diegovog said it best - it's a defining feature.

But andunor also has npc guards..and they don't seem to mind free and uncollated el es walking around?

This is explained in game.

[satan]

Yes, it is an RP advantage. It's also quite the boon to gameplay to be able to xp or shop anywhere unmolested.

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

Besides the immersion problem

What immersion problems? Spend some serious time in forgotten realms lore and you'll see that a number of underdark cities have a sizable human population.

What goes for the lore does not always translate in what is good for Arelith:

I'm taking you all years back *Waves magical hands*

We are having Udos, Drow reside there and the trade post. Surfacers wen to the trade post, But fully on edge cause you could run into some drow and get seriously arse handed.

The underdark was SCARY, it felt scary and people did not take it lightly.

When other races were released and kobolds etc got kicked out of Cordor (Yes, We used to have lovely nice Cordorian Kobolds living in Cordor in the past).

The UD was still scary as hell, Surfacers even the most bad Snuggybear of them were not going there for a stroll.

Now we have slaves, outcasts, Pirates sometimes, all coexcisting there, Adunor is promoted as a trade hub, Dark(er) Cordor.
And folk basicly look at the Underdark as just another place to go, Hey I summon some undead, Can I play with you drow? "Sure!"

I do NOT think the uderdark has improved by this, I do not think it has gotten better, It may be lore wise acceptable, But it went for a cost of something that was great about the underdark.

[Nitro]

Let's not derail another thread with someones personal vendetta against "surfacers" in Andunor eh?

[satan]

But it's not.. someone...

It's lots of people.

[Zavandar]

this sounds like stuff that could be handled with rp

humans being in andunor isnt really a problem

I'm gonna be honest the most notable characters I can think of from the UD are either drow or humans

also assuming people just roll humans in the UD just for the extra fest and ability to dip between settlements is a mean generalization.

Also, you're assuming the surface as a whole is okay with people double dipping. Also another generalization

your argument isnt very informed

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Im more bothered how UD has no way to tell if a human outcast is actaully a human outcast.

I disagree there. In my opinion that's the very beauty of it. You have to RP to find out their true nature, not just easy-tag someone. Even races carry a certain degree of tags. You se a Drow in the Hub and nobody will bait an eye. But a human people will naturally be suspicious.

Besides the immersion problem, it's just sorta lame that UD races have to sneak around and are not allowed to even set foot in surface towns, yet surface races(esp human) can free reign the entire server.

This amounts to a serious mechanical advantage that requires further review imo.

But this is what makes the UD races exactly what they are. It's not limiting, it's defining. And in my own personal experience the characters who usually "befriend" people everywhere just because they have access to are not the deep, interesting and memorable characters we grow to love.

No one bats an eye at humans in general. I had a few difficult conversations with new players (playing a monster race) who didn't understand the whole human monster relation in UD.

Somehow surfacers know who are outcasts but UD that explicitly blocks surfacers from hub portal do not. When i was playing UD it eas normal for non outcasts to just hangout in the hub and there was no plausible way of looking at any human with any suspicion. Lol we can't even view pirate tags (said surfacers were oftrn pirates, which I thought was actaully kind of cool). Somehow we are all blind and ignorant of who is who yet surfacers can tell which of their own are their own and not blind at seeing tattoos. Its assumed that if you start in Adundor as an outcast that you have been formerly outcasted and i think the citizens of Adundor would know such, or at least be able to see pirate tattoos. Its the double standard that bothers me, makes trying to foster a UD "risky place to go" atmosphere a lot harder to establish when all the intruders look like half of your citizens with nothing to distinguish them yet some how surfacers can tell all the differences.

[Zavandar]

Isnt that part of the risk

[Reallylongunneededplayername]

humans being in andunor isnt really a problem

I'm gonna be honest the most notable characters I can think of from the UD are either drow or humans

You start with it not being a problem then follow up with what I find the problem.

I want those notable humans on the surface.

I want REAL evil up there, on the surface. Not hidden down there playing turf war.

And I think we need it too.

All I currently have seen is tossing tomatoes,
Conflicts formed out of ooc reasons, arrogance or difference of opinion. (That person is evil because she thinks differently than I) or is evil by reallife ooc left standaard.

Hells one of the big villians to some folk was a paladin.

That said I do feel like the DM is actively pressing evil away.

I noticed evil surface clubs quickly pointed as Kos and everyone partakes. This club then quickly is seen as pvp high and finds themself talking to a DM.

Quick sample Sencliff.

I dont know what is going on behind the screens, but my experiences often make me go "what?"./end rant

[Ork]

If you want notable evil characters on the surface, players need to stop driving it off with OOC bullshit & sandcastle-ing away from conflict. Making outcasts a reward WILL NOT CHANGE THAT.

The DMs are not pressing evil away, it really is the players who ignore conflict.

[Zavandar]

a lot of evil surface factions bring that stuff upon themselves by biting off more than they can chew. there's plenty of evil on the surface that gets by

also, regarding drow and humans being notable andunor characters.. why is that a problem

beyond you not liking it

[Anomandaris]

Something to consider. The merit/risk of a "rule" vs. the reality of how that rule plays out. Do I think we need to change the rules or mechanics regarding outcasts being award driven or whatever? No... Do I think the rules are perfect? No. But it's like society, you cant "legislate away all of our problems."

The problem is lazy RP and people that abuse whatever loopholes there are. Accept as a basic premise that you will NEVER, I repeat, NEVER close all loopholes. Trying to do so will drive you insane.

Naturally people that abuse this stuff and tend to get what they deserve. Their chars don't make an impact, struggle in one way or another, or people just see what they're doing and don't wat to RP with them.

Sure, I think there are a lot of valid points being made here on both sides but the great thing about this game & server, is you have recourse IC! Go start campaigning to monitor Outcast Humans, get a group of Drow hardliners together. Get the beasts together... (being done atm btw).

Rather than seeking a mechanical or OOC change, there is tons that can, and IS being done to push both sides of this argument. That's the fun part of this whole ecosystem! So grab some popcorn and a weapon and jump in to make your vision a reality!

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

My honest assessment of the situation of this thread is that the problem is that people want their cake and to eat it, too.

The directive for Andunor, for years, has been that it's more of a tradehub/Skullport than a Pure Drow City/Menzoberranzan. This means the population of notable humans down there, objectively, isn't a problem according to server design.

When playing a drow, for the sake of the atmosphere, it's good to want the humans enslaved beneath drow or killed and tossed out into the sunlight - but you have to accept that trade/economic/story factors keep that from happening, without a huge IC movement that generates sustained RP towards it and garners DM/Dev interest to actually action it into server design somehow.

If you're playing a character that feels Humans are stifling opportunity in Andunor, then I encourage you to do something about it that can't be ignored. Make your vision a reality IC, over time - but the thing you want, OOC, explicitly is not how the Devs have defined it.

With regards to the issue of pirates/outcasts/tags, a sentiment was discussed in this thread that I disagree with- that "I want my reputation to speak for itself and not have people just know I'm a pirate/outcast because of some tag." Again, if you go to the design directive of how these roles are meant to be played by the people who make that decision for this server, your reputation does speak to itself, to such a large extent that the whole island has heard of you in at least descriptive enough terms to visually identify you as someone to stay away from or be prepared to fight.

People consistently attempting to play under-the-radar outcasts was discussed as a large motivating factor in the tag being applied in the first place. If you don't want to be recognized by your tag(reputation), then you do not want to play a Pirate, you want to play a character who may occasionally engage in an act or two of piracy. If you don't want to be recognized by your tag(reputation), you do not want to play an Outcast, you want to play a character who makes other people uncomfortable but isn't instantly recognized and reviled by all of civilized society.

Everyone has a reason why tags shouldn't apply to them, and plenty of people even have good reasons. But that's exactly why its spelled out for you beforehand that those reasons don't apply - if you can make them apply post-creation through virtue of rebuilding your reputation, then good for you, but you start out disliked, not friendly or even neutral. That's part of the challenge you're agreeing to. If all it took to bypass the design restrictions for things on this server was a good RP reason, then every character on the server would have wings/tails/horns, etc.