Nobs wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:15 am
Cast a level 1 spell for 20 listen and cast a level 3 spell for 10 more listen thats 30 from 2 spells + gear + wisdom + a epic feat for 10 more = spotting all the sneaks in game.
Listen is so dope for spotting as it wil help you find sneaks around corners and other objects in game.
But yes this way you need to do a little more then go beetle mode but i dont think thats a problem as the sneaks have to gear and feat for it aswel.
Or you know just do 25 lore and scroll.
In other words a deticated spotter wil always find the dedicated sneak on this server.
Yeah...you need to be character with high wis, use 2 spells, and have gear with spot to have chance to all sneakers who dont super specialisté in it who need just to Press one button...good...do you see problem?
Btw there are also spells for stealth...
And simply...you can get both super high on arelith...and that true problém..
Like srsly...I play sneaker...and on lvl 13, I have close to 60 of both Hide/MS...that brutal overkill...add 10 ESF, like 10 more from gear, 17 more from ranks...thats a true problem here...so more tools agains this...I am all up for it..
Nobs wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:15 am
Cast a level 1 spell for 20 listen and cast a level 3 spell for 10 more listen thats 30 from 2 spells + gear + wisdom + a epic feat for 10 more = spotting all the sneaks in game.
Listen is so dope for spotting as it wil help you find sneaks around corners and other objects in game.
But yes this way you need to do a little more then go beetle mode but i dont think thats a problem as the sneaks have to gear and feat for it aswel.
Or you know just do 25 lore and scroll.
In other words a deticated spotter wil always find the dedicated sneak on this server.
Yeah...you need to be character with high wis, use 2 spells, and have gear with spot to have chance to all sneakers who dont super specialisté in it who need just to Press one button...good...do you see problem?
Btw there are also spells for stealth...
And simply...you can get both super high on arelith...and that true problém..
Yup you need all that to catch a guy that spends all his gear stats and feats on hide and ms....shame a cheap level 4 wand wont do all that any more...
And lets be honest here , Its way harder to get high hide and move silent then it is to get high spot or listen...Hell you even only need to focus in 1 detection skill where the sneak in 2...
In any case you can still use a scroll of trueseeing.
Nobs wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:15 am
Cast a level 1 spell for 20 listen and cast a level 3 spell for 10 more listen thats 30 from 2 spells + gear + wisdom + a epic feat for 10 more = spotting all the sneaks in game.
Listen is so dope for spotting as it wil help you find sneaks around corners and other objects in game.
But yes this way you need to do a little more then go beetle mode but i dont think thats a problem as the sneaks have to gear and feat for it aswel.
Or you know just do 25 lore and scroll.
In other words a deticated spotter wil always find the dedicated sneak on this server.
Yeah...you need to be character with high wis, use 2 spells, and have gear with spot to have chance to all sneakers who dont super specialisté in it who need just to Press one button...good...do you see problem?
Btw there are also spells for stealth...
And simply...you can get both super high on arelith...and that true problém..
Yup you need all that to catch a guy that spends all his gear stats and feats on hide and ms....shame a cheap level 4 wand wont do all that any more...
And lets be honest here , Its way harder to get high hide and move silent then it is to get high spot or listen...Hell you even only need to focus in 1 detection skill where the sneak in 2...
In any case you can still use a scroll of trueseeing.
You still dont get it...its super easy to gear Hide/MS on arelith...there is great number of options of good gear with Hide/MS and nearly non for spot...
Not even speaking About that sneak classes have 6 or 8 skillpoint...so even after 2 of those invested you have 2 -4 more skill then classes that are good spoters...
"Hell you even only need to focus in 1 detection skill where the sneak in 2...
" This is literaly redundant with those bonus skillpoint, gear options and feat changed on arelith...
Just try to take any decent class...even probably ranger or cleric...and you will never get as high spot as you can get hide/MS...even tho that spot is harder to get, and need sacrifices in your build...
Rogues gets that hide/MS basicly for free...and if you try focus it...noone can see you without truesight...
Hell...Even when we builded sneak characters with friends....race with bonus to sneak, bonus to hide in SD, gift for sneak...all those are considered overkill...bcs with all those you get maybe over 20 point more then dedicated spoter can archieve
Ok well my own rogue has 55 listen base with 8 wisdom so all i need to do is cast amp and clair and its at 85.
My rogue is focust for sneaking with feats dex and gear and has 94 ms.
So i would easy be able to detect my own toon and that is with out any wisdom.
Trow in a wisdom based toon and you can make all the sneaks cry as you wil always find them.
Yah building for spot/listen is not nearly as hard as some are making it out to be. Getting any skill up to 100 requires tailoring the build towards it and making some sacrifices, that goes for hide/ms or spot/listen.
Nobs wrote: Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:30 pm
Ok well my own rogue has 55 listen base with 8 wisdom so all i need to do is cast amp and clair and its at 85.
My rogue is focust for sneaking with feats dex and gear and has 94 ms.
So i would easy be able to detect my own toon and that is with out any wisdom.
Trow in a wisdom based toon and you can make all the sneaks cry as you wil always find them.
94 isnt can you can probably go little higher..
Well...all you need to do is not move as far as I am aware...
And still...rogue (actualy kinda fine spoter class) needs to cast 2 scrolls to get you...not bad if I say...when you take into consideration that you can cast camu, one with the land, and probably even some more to beat it...
And why shouldnt tbey be able to do it...when someone invest 33 skill, full gear on it, and even cast 2 spells for it...they should be able to beat it...thats whole point if sneaking...when someone suspects that someone is sneaking nearby...they should find you...
I suggest a middle ground. Have TS reveal the sneaker, but apply a "hips" effect to the seen-sneaker when it expires. Effectively giving true sight to the see-er only while the effect is active.
This gives the TS caster (or high level lore scroll user) a window to farie fire or otherwise counter-play the sneaker. Umber TS would require dropping polymorph to act (in any meaningful way besides shouting) and cancelling that polymorph would drop the line of sight.
This would allow a wider group of characters to combat the basic cheese of door-following sneakers with umber poly and umd, but doesn't give umber poly the same effect as a TS spell.
Or just don't fix something that isn't broken. Skillful sneaks have learned how to corner-sneak Umberhulks for years, and know when, where, and who door-humping is appropriate against and who it isn't. Scouting out your areas beforehand and knowing your LOS breaks is what separates someone with a sneak build and someone that know how to -play- a sneak.
I don't mind it's removal those umberhulks were poping everywhere , sure it was fun having one with you in a group to take care of all the detection but way to easy to get
you don't need umd or lore to use it just a potion
Change TS from umber hulk to as per p'n'p
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft.
If it is too much hassle, remove TS from it as it shouldn't have it in the first place.
SPOT:
+10 DC if the spotter is in combat.
+5 DC if the target is standing still.
-5 DC if the spotter is standing still.
Size modifiers (tiny: +8, small: +4, medium: 0, large: -4, huge: -8).
Area spot check modifiers.
+5 DC for stealthed players (only), if they are in the back arc.
+5 DC at night if the spotter does not have a light (or darkvision).
-10 DC at night if the target has a light source on them.
Spot requires line of sight, Cannot spot invisible creatures.
LISTEN
+10 DC if the listener is in combat.
+5 DC if the target is standing still.
-5 DC if the listener is standing still.
+1 DC for every 3 meters between listener and target.
Size modifiers (tiny: +8, small: +4, medium: 0, large: -4, huge: -8).
+5 DC for every 40cm of the object (including creatures) between listener and target in outdoor areas.
+2 DC in indoor areas if the line of sight is blocked and the target is within 4 tiles.
Area listen check modifiers.
Cannot hear silenced creatures.
Listen can go through solid objects such as walls and doors, but creatures that are heard one round can become not heard the next.
So far my biggest concern is to the True Sight spell, as it (SRD 3.5):
True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means.
While dragons and other proper bosses could retain the NWN version as they should have blindsight or blind sense.
There could be possibly potential to overhaul whole stealth/perception mechanic, to be more skill/modifiers based:
More light conditions (sunny day - bright light, light spells, daylight spells)
Distance to the source, object, or creature per feet,
Weather conditions / indoors,
Even something like REST conditions or being sober/drunk,
Sneaking away, dodging patrols and overall playing it smart should favor sneakers.
Trying to stay in the face of someone (less than 10f) should be hugely in favor of the one detecting.
if true sight goes from Umberhulk, things will shift decidedly in favor of the stealthers and further diminish the value of wands and potions of the related spell. It's not nearly as prolific as would be implied that it is a problem. You would still have dragon shape presumably, and true sight from divine classes, which also isn't that high level of a spell (and already has had its nerf with a duration reduction on true sight).
Transformation does not allow for normal spells and abilities to be utilized as your stats do see some increases but the rest of your offensive abilities are curtailed while in that shape. While someone can shift back and start the fight, again as mentioned before corners break line of sight and counter any detection into pursuit.
I strongly disagree with the removal of it, it's a quality of life issue, not a PVP balance issue.
Echohawk wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:57 pm
if true sight goes from Umberhulk, things will shift decidedly in favor of the stealthers and further diminish the value of wands and potions of the related spell. It's not nearly as prolific as would be implied that it is a problem. You would still have dragon shape presumably, and true sight from divine classes, which also isn't that high level of a spell (and already has had its nerf with a duration reduction on true sight).
Since this seems to be coming up, I would like to point out that Dragon Shape on arelith does not come with true sight unless something has changed (Dragon PC's might but they are increasingly rare). There was a push for it (before the suggestions opened) and it was rejected as dragon shape is already extremely powerful:
As far as its removal, as a sneak player, I honestly have no opinion. It seems silly that anyone should just be able to pop into umberhulk form randomly. That being said, there should be a counter to people sneaking into your house when the door is open. That strikes me as the main problem. Seems like good arguments to both sides.
Archnon wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:54 pm
Apparently that changed without an update
Check the wisdom score- that's not a Dragon Shape druid, that's a Shapechange casting mage. AFAIK, True Seeing was never removed from them. I don't think it should be, personally, and I don't really think it should've been pulled from Dragon Shapers, either, after the other form nerfs. With that said, Dragonshape and the various shifter shapes don't lose nearly as much from changing shapes, as their forms combine gear for a much more combat-heavy machine.
Bane's tyranny is known throughout the continent, and his is the image most seen as the face of evil.
-Faiths and Pantheons (c)2002
Ah, such hyperbole...
I remember the days of this game when people weren't so freaking lazy about stealth detection.
Back when the PvP rules merely stated you need only to have RP Motivation to kill someone, so a sneak attacker could actually use surprise (like they're supposed to) and it was common mantra to "kill someone when they rest."
Ah, better times. (Definitely times that were more fair to all involved.)
People then actually bought stealth detection skills with their skill points. Can you imagine? They feared people sneaking up on them and killing them! They didn't have a stupid, nonsensical rule about interaction and spouting one-liners before starting a fight that relegated spot and listen to untaken and novel skills, unnecessary wastes. Say what you will about Jjj, but at least he had that much common sense when he ran the place.
Anyways, some of these assessments are horrible and silly. All you need to see the vast majority of sneakers is about 50 listen. That's it. Max out listen, throw some +2s on your gear. Done. It's that easy. The fact that Amplify is on EVERYTHING these days and getting Clairaudio is simple just rubs in the fact that True Sight in it's unnerfed form isn't necessary no matter how you get it.
Something pretty much every server in the NWNverse with any amount of custom beyond vanilla has already figured out and balanced.
It just goes to show where this server's base lies that so many decry losing a 100% magic silver bullet rather than put in a minimum of effort to match someone who expends great resource.
I find the above comment dismissive. 'Can you imagine' is subjective, and has a slippery slope that essentially denounces the needs for any rules and limitations to preserve the enjoyment of the game on the mechanics/ethics side. Already there are requirements even of assassins to have to interact prior to PVP, so the point of stealth is nearly moot since you will have to appear in order to interact even if only briefly.
Where they don't have to interact is in theft, and I don't think it's unreasonable for people to be able to have a means to stop this since there isn't a reality factor of 'this half orc is literally sneaking through the same door you just barely opened to get into, and you didn't even notice'. Yes you could always invest in detect skills, but with the increased need for lore that's yet another skill certain builds are now choked with in their point allocations, still including use magic device.
But if you want to basically call us the equivalent of entitled lazyass millennials, you should've been barking back when they changed the death xp loss, or the disarm actively throwing weapons on the ground.
Again, for the people who just aren't getting it... rogues get 8 + INT skill points per level up, please do not keep bringing up what a huge sacrifice it is for your rogue to invest in hide and move silent, because your class revolves around those skills. On the other hand, for the characters with 2 + INT skill points per level up, they aren't getting a free pass. Use of polymorph wands require investing points in UMD (sure its only 15 points you say, but that comes at a premium for someone only getting 2 + INT a level), it is a finite resource - unlike hide, a wand will run out of charges, and a wizard/sorcerer has to be found to make it for you.
ReverentBlade wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2019 5:52 am
Or just don't fix something that isn't broken. Skillful sneaks have learned how to corner-sneak Umberhulks for years, and know when, where, and who door-humping is appropriate against and who it isn't. Scouting out your areas beforehand and knowing your LOS breaks is what separates someone with a sneak build and someone that know how to -play- a sneak.
So you're saying a sneak will know, watching someone Umber before opening their quarters, that they should not door-hump that person? That feels like a double-blind.
