Nexus Fall Tavern - Who is allowed?

[Mike_mohawk]

Hello there, I really LOVE the tavern near the Nexus fall.

But I was told to bring my trouble here.
For the place is outstanding but there is one thing that does confuse my little lizard brain.

As someone who has two UD characters, it is very unclear what exactly is allowed in there.
The reason being that the house-rules technically state everyone is welcome. Both good and evil.
But the examples used are both very "orderly" and "surface civilised" organisations. So I could read between the lines and conclude that drow, monsters and other UD scum isn't welcome. But it isn't explicit and that is a shame.

To add to the suspicion that UD'ers and etc isn't welcome there. The dog outside the tavern has a description that states it is there to make sure monsters doesn't veer too close to the place.
That is cool and all, but i would very much prefer it was cut out that monsters weren't allowed instead of having to make an assumption IC that the dog looks mighty "Monster hating" and therefore my kobold isn't welcome.

I know it might seem a bit redundant and it might be obvious to fall into the "Common sense" rule. But i just like having things chalked up so I don't get in a scuffle OOC.

[R0GUE]

So I'm obviously not the authority here and cannot answer your question. But as a surface dweller who has been enjoying the tavern, if I could throw my two cents in without offending anyone, I would just say I think it would be cool to have a single place on the Surface where UD'ers/monsters/outcasts could congregate with regular folk AS LONG AS THEY DON'T CAUSE ANY TROUBLE! The text in bold being the key. The problem is would certain players be able to contain themselves and act accordingly (I am speaking of both UD'ers and Surfacers here)?

One issue is getting from the portal to the tavern safely. The other day I spoke with an elf guarding the portal and she had just killed a drow, who presumably might have just been trying to get to the tavern. Not sure if there's a way to institute a rule that says the direct line between the portal and the tavern is safe ground or not. It might just have to be a case of you better use invisibility or some other stealthy means to get there.

As far as RP, I think you could justify it because the tavern owner is a Firbolg, he is pretty much a giant, which is a monster (albeit a goodly aligned monster).

Anyway, that's just my take on it. I also don't want to see the place turn from a charming tavern away from the bustle of the big settlements and into some kind of seedy place where fights break out every 10 minutes either. So maybe I should be advising the opposite course, I don't know.

[The GrumpyCat]

I'm 99% sure that the tavern owner wouldn't take too kindly to drow/Kobolds/Gnolls openly chilling there. It's a neutral space for between the Banite/Radient Heart conflict - given what land its on, but other forms of Extreme Evil are likely not going to be tolerated.

So I'm obviously not the authority here and cannot answer your question. But as a surface dweller who has been enjoying the tavern, if I could throw my two cents in without offending anyone, I would just say I think it would be cool to have a single place on the Surface where UD'ers/monsters/outcasts could congregate with regular folk AS LONG AS THEY DON'T CAUSE ANY TROUBLE! The text in bold being the key. The problem is would certain players be able to contain themselves and act accordingly (I am speaking of both UD'ers and Surfacers here)?

I... actually see your point here? And I even somewhat agree (though I think one could argue that the Shadovar Tradepost works very well for this already).

However I really don't think that the Silver bough is That Place.

Better Taverns for that I think might be...
*Sencliffs Feast Hall maybe?
*Shadovar Tradepost (as mentioned)
*The shadowy Slanty Shanty
*The Cloven Hoof.
*The No Name Inn

[Blood on my Lips]

If you think about it, monster races being welcome in a surface tavern, especially one located so close to the Radiant Heart, is not going to happen. There are far more appropriate places for them to hang out, as Grumpy Cat mentioned.

[R0GUE]

I'm 99% sure that the tavern owner wouldn't take too kindly to drow/Kobolds/Gnolls openly chilling there. It's a neutral space for between the Banite/Radient Heart conflict - given what land its on, but other forms of Extreme Evil are likely not going to be tolerated.

So I'm obviously not the authority here and cannot answer your question. But as a surface dweller who has been enjoying the tavern, if I could throw my two cents in without offending anyone, I would just say I think it would be cool to have a single place on the Surface where UD'ers/monsters/outcasts could congregate with regular folk AS LONG AS THEY DON'T CAUSE ANY TROUBLE! The text in bold being the key. The problem is would certain players be able to contain themselves and act accordingly (I am speaking of both UD'ers and Surfacers here)?

I... actually see your point here? And I even somewhat agree (though I think one could argue that the Shadovar Tradepost works very well for this already).

However I really don't think that the Silver bough is That Place.

Better Taverns for that I think might be...
*Sencliffs Feast Hall maybe?
*Shadovar Tradepost (as mentioned)
*The shadowy Slanty Shanty
*The Cloven Hoof.
*The No Name Inn

You are probably right, and I will bow to your expertise. I guess my problem is, I don't know where a lot of those places are...

[Mike_mohawk]

I hope I was clear enough in my original post.

The problem here is not that with a little common sense it makes sense that UD/Monsters probably isn't allowed.

The problem is that it isn't clear and as we all should know by now, common sense isn't common.

I could take all these things into consideration and make a conclusion. The proximity of the RH, the description of the dog, the fact that the innkeeper is good-aligned. All these things.
But my conclusion will not be the same as what others will reach.

So perhaps something more tangibable or clear cut can be implemented.

[Dr. B]

You are probably right, and I will bow to your expertise. I guess my problem is, I don't know where a lot of those places are...

Places where evil characters hang out and that good characters avoid.

[R0GUE]

You are probably right, and I will bow to your expertise. I guess my problem is, I don't know where a lot of those places are...

Places where evil characters hang out and that good characters avoid.

Hmmm, I guess that's kind of my point then. That what is being suggested is that only evil-ish/seedy places are true congregating places. There's no "true neutral" site at the moment which is what I was more thinking of (maybe the druid groves? But even then).

I know where the Shadovar Camp is at least, and Sencliffe, although Sencliffe is quite hard to get to for a good character.

[The GrumpyCat]

You are probably right, and I will bow to your expertise. I guess my problem is, I don't know where a lot of those places are...

Places where evil characters hang out and that good characters avoid.

Hmmm, I guess that's kind of my point then. That what is being suggested is that only evil-ish/seedy places are true congregating places. There's no "true neutral" site at the moment which is what I was more thinking of (maybe the druid groves? But even then).

I know where the Shadovar Camp is at least, and Sencliffe, although Sencliffe is quite hard to get to for a good character.

Well I mean, I suppose you can count a 'field' as True Neutral or the middle of the desert, but you're talking 'Civilised' neutral. And that is a slightly different ballgame, I think.

Firstly the thing to understand about monster races is that they are (for the most part) Monsterious.

We're not talking 'oh they're a little naughty' or 'Oh they're a bit badly behaved' we're talking bestial, dangerous, vicious, cruel, conniving and horrible. On the scale of evil, where 1 is the average lowlife pickpocket, and 10 is Asmodeus himself - Monster races are generally around a 7.

OK, maybe the average PC isn't that bad, sure. But the NPCs, at least in theory, certainly are. And the general 'world' has no way of knowing the difference.

Neutrality may not mean combating evil, but it also doesn't neccesarly mean thoughaly tolerating it either. And the sort of creature monsters are means that often they simply arn't welcome.

[Dr. B]

You are probably right, and I will bow to your expertise. I guess my problem is, I don't know where a lot of those places are...

Places where evil characters hang out and that good characters avoid.

Hmmm, I guess that's kind of my point then. That what is being suggested is that only evil-ish/seedy places are true congregating places.

Maybe try the PGCC, or even the Arelith Discord, because there's no IC place where what you're describing happens. Arelith used to be that way back in 2004, when evil drow lounged around in Cordor ("The City of Tolerance," as it was called), chatting with Paladins. Those days are long gone and rightfully forgotten.

There are places where such characters may uneasily cross paths. The Shadovar Trade post is one of them. But a place where they hang out with one another? I would love for the devs to add such an area and then mass-ban everyone who uses it.

[Mike_mohawk]

Okay, people are missing the point and going off-topic.

The issue here isn't if there is a neutral place or if there needs to be one. I'd advise people to make their own thread with that.


This is about the fact the new tavern not having clear guideline and only hints at it's intention of being for "Civilised" (Which is vague at best).

I would really like to know if this has any merit and/or if the feedback is appreciated.

[R0GUE]

Well, I think grumpycat answered your question. No it's not for underdarkers or monsters. And if you show up there you'll likely get treated the same as any other tavern.

Personally I don't think it needs any other guidelines, just because events that happen IC should set the guidelines for things like this. There doesn't need to be a sign that says "No Drow Allowed" does there? On the other hand, if for some weird reason, a bunch of drow did start hanging out there and for even weirder reasons, no one did anything about it, well then that would be the result because it was a spontaneous happening in game.

(Anyway I still think it might be neat to have a place where a good and evil foe could meet safely to "moot" so to speak and would be considered bad protocol to kill each other - but I'll take it offline or make another thread for it).

[Mike_mohawk]

I still would recommend having the things chalked up instead of going with a common sense "gut feeling" and etc.

But just be me.

[The GrumpyCat]

I still would recommend having the things chalked up instead of going with a common sense "gut feeling" and etc.

But just be me.

That's fair. I've actually had an idea or two which I'll run past Irongron and we'll see how things go. No promises.

[Mike_mohawk]

Thank your for taking your time and all I wanted was for you to reflect on it.

If action is neccesary, It would please me, but this is your server in the end <3

[Mike_mohawk]

You being the staff/DM's <3

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

You are probably right, and I will bow to your expertise. I guess my problem is, I don't know where a lot of those places are...

Places where evil characters hang out and that good characters avoid.

Hmmm, I guess that's kind of my point then. That what is being suggested is that only evil-ish/seedy places are true congregating places. There's no "true neutral" site at the moment which is what I was more thinking of (maybe the druid groves? But even then).

I know where the Shadovar Camp is at least, and Sencliffe, although Sencliffe is quite hard to get to for a good character.

Considering i still have never successfully gotten to shadowvar, I think Sencliff is much easier to (it's as easy as getting to crow's nest), especially after you got its portal. But people might frown on you for hanging out there too much as something like a paladin though, like what would your peers say about you?

[JubJub]

Also a big difference between being an evil person and being a monster. Just because someone might allow bandits, bane folks, etc into their bar doesn't mean they want drow, ogres, minotaurs etc. Things known for having a tendency to eat people. Shadovar is the only true place I can think of where any race/person can go and hang out.

[DM Wraith]

Heres the tldr of my thoughts on this.

It is part of the rules outlined http://wiki.arelith.com/Playing_any_UD_race . Now with that in mind, there shouldn't need to be an IG reminder via NPC of the boughs intended functionality and appropriate usage by players. In playing, we should be mindful of the rules and researching appropriate measures of the extent of that grey area so to speak of rp; the onus is on us as players as well to ensure setting integrity. Akin this to a playing a paladin as an example.
As a paladin is very detailed to alignment etc, i wouldn't expect to see a Paladin teaming up with a necromancer. If that, or in this case monstrous races were to try and utilize the bough for rp, that os something you should report and allow the DM team to address accordingly.

That said the UD has bars as well to be utilized in similar fashion from each of the districts bars to the Outpost and various other locations that would gladly see to catering to a more evil ilk.

I know Grumpy has already mentioned bringing this up amongst staff, but just wanted to give some more feedback in hope of answering the OP concern.

[Mike_mohawk]

I understand that and I think I used Drow as an example in my OP. Which I knew was not going to fly, obviously.
I play a monster, A kobold, and I understand it wouldn't make much sense that they are welcome in a surface bar.

But while I do understand Drow and Monsters, mostly because the way the rules are, they are monsters who don't get along with anyone except their own, more or less. But Outcasts, slaves and other humanoids from the UD who isn't monsterous is a bit iffy.
I do think it would just be a nice-to-have to actually have a direct IC reminder. Because a lot of people forget the guidelines/Rules.


That said, this brings up another problem, and I hope this isn't dragging on too much.
(Disclaimer: This is a bit off the point.)
The point that Surface 'hang-out' areas is more or less a no-go for most UD'ers is a rather easy point. But beside Shadovar(Forced Neutrality) and Hell(Evil) there's some problems with the other "ne'er do wells"-places.
I would postulate that the shadow-realm is not very accessible nor is it somewhere that makes very much logical sense for people to go to. I've had this discussion with some fellow players, and what it (IMO) boiled down to was, people take the FOIG info regarding the shadowrealm rather for granted. They think that it's a hop-skip and a jump for anyone to go there.
Where in reality it's a bit of a stretch that most characters would just "stumble onto it".

Sencliffe is a bit of a special case, because I have no idea how to get there on my UD characters and there's never been a narrative reason for me to go. And whenever I feel like exploring it, bumping into the right people is hard.

But back to Andunor. Yes there are "bars" in Andunor. But the district houses of Sharps and Devils table are IIRC never used beside events and their setup seems not really to lend themselves to RP. Greyport has a better set-up for it. But whenever I've been with a group who ended up there, it got overcrowded in mere seconds.
The spider's web is almost never used, sadly. Perhaps It could do with a bar like other places. Idk.
The only place I see people come back to, when it comes to hanging out, is the hub.
Frankly, I hate this. Mostly becaus it ends up being people just sticking to the walls and looking towards the portal. It feels odd and off.
Other people have over time suggested clearing up the middle section, and using that.I don't know if that's a fix, but it's.. well.. an idea?

To put a pretty bow on the subject and wrap it up.
I don't say all these latter points to make it seem like I NEED the minmir bar for my UD'ers. It is more to do with the fact that, the options we have on hand on our UD players are either "Go to places that are highly FOIG or go to empty places.". This isn't inheriently the DMs/Admins/Creators place to make sure that we have a place to hang that is active.
This is to underline the lesser point I was trying to make that peopel saw as the larger point. Which is that it seems that UD'ers really want a convienient place to go to hang.

My larger point and the main issue here is:
I would really love some obvious indicators In-game IC where my UD character is allowed to go and where they are not. Yes some things could be marked down to "Common sense."
But just to use the examples given, It's hard for me as an UD'er to justify going to the proposed places for evil to congregrate. Why? Because most of them are NOT logical places for most characters to go and magicly knowing about them or going there is a bit too meta for my taste.
And I feel that the Minmir bar, while having some good hints, aren't clear-cut enough on where the line goes. It hints at anti-monster and it hints at being for "civilised and somewhat orderly surfacers" but that's vague.

Sorry if my points are messy. I'm just trying to clarify, paradoxically.

[JustMonika]

I mean.

I am confused.

You say you went to Greyport - But it got too... Busy? To quickly? So presumably you don't want a busy, populuar bar.

Then you listed several bars that are 'empty'. But if you took other people there, they wouldn't be empty, but if everyone went their, they'd be too busy anyway.

Also the underused tavernes in the underdark have not always been underused and sometimes have been thriving. No matter what areas our lovely area design team make, they're pointless unless people go there. Arelith is huge and many parts underused as it is. Make use of what we have before wishing for what we don't!

[Irongron]

The rules concerning Underdark races interactions on the surface are, as Wraith pointed all, perfectly clear.

I'm not about to overhaul the module adding specific signs at each and every location where NPCs are present.