The Bastard Sword

[Apothys]

Hey guys and gals.

Is it me or does anyone else feel that the bastard sword gained from Exotic weapon profiency doesnt seem... very exotic

Its supposed to be a 1 or 2 handed sword right? but ingame it simply gains a simple point or two damage over a basic longsword.

Other Exotic weapons seem to have really good crit ranges or a free 'Disarm' feat while equipped (whip) but not the fearsome bastard sword. Ive even tried using it in two hands thinking perhaps it would gain the same +2 AB the other 2H weapons get, but it doesnt.

What do you think? Fine as it is or missing that little extra something?

[Nitro]

There isn't really much point in the bastard sword now that the polearm group gives you access to both 1h and 2h weapons in a single specialization (spear as 1h, all other polearms as 2h), without having to sacrifice a feat for exotic weapons, which also empowers the polearm group even further by unlocking scythes and tridents. The main selling point of the bastard sword used to be the versatility of being able to 1hand or 2hand on command to swap in and out of shield or damage, but now you can swap out of 1h and 2hand weapons without having to waste several feats on weapon focuses so Polearms are better for that purpose.

Unless of course you for some reason make a bastard sword WM.

[Apothys]

Well you can go 2 handed with any single handed weapon now i think and gain the 1.5 damage bonus.

I think i was hoping that the bastard sword would do the same and give the +2AB as a 2H weapons does when weilded thusly, hence Exotic.

[White_935]

Well you can go 2 handed with any single handed weapon now i think and gain the 1.5 damage bonus.

I think i was hoping that the bastard sword would do the same and give the +2AB as a 2H weapons does when weilded thusly, hence Exotic.

I used bastard sword on both my knight and later on my soldier character and i've several times wondered why on that exact reason.
It doesn't give you a advantage over the two handers, and it's a nice "in between" I'd love to see it get equal treatment considering it's a decent weapon choice but it's not really worth using it as two-handed as it stands.

[Mattamue]

Being able to situationally choose 6ac from a shield or 1.5 str is pretty powerful for str melee builds. Adding the +2 ab or x3 might make it the most optimal for sweatyness.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Main advantage of polearms is it counts for two hand prof on a single handeabke weapon when it comes to deficiencies. So like greatsword users can use bastard swords, etc. Its also a flexible option for a weaponmaster, especially an orog

Polesrms does make that slightly obsolete for all other potions though. Tridents having a unique weapon and halberds having more than one damage type and 1 hand spears being a thing.

[Tarkus the dog]

You can -twohand it, very powerful for high STR characters!

[Wrips]

I think Bastard Sword (and exotic weapons that can be -twohanded) could at last give +1AB while two-handed. Not exactly as powerful as +2AB from two-hand weapons but a nice bonus to justify feat investment.

[Subutai]

Just want to add in that, other than the versatility of 1h vs 2h, bastard sword is otherwise statistically almost identical to scimitar, as both of them output about the same damage on average (1d6 18-20x2 vs 1d10 19-20x2), so there's never been much need to take EWP to use bastard sword, since it's the same result as a scimitar at the cost of one more feat (essentially spending a feat for the 2h option).

Also to add, if the bastard sword gets improved, we need to reconsider the Orog Bastard Sword. It's already an amazing weapon for an already-top-tier subrace. If we're being honest, the Orog Bastard Sword could already be ditched entirely, and Bastard Sword would still be one of the most ideal choices for Orogs.

[Nevrus]

It looks hilarious in the hands of a small race. That's worth a feat.

[Wrips]

Just want to add in that, other than the versatility of 1h vs 2h, bastard sword is otherwise statistically almost identical to scimitar, as both of them output about the same damage on average (1d6 18-20x2 vs 1d10 19-20x2), so there's never been much need to take EWP to use bastard sword, since it's the same result as a scimitar at the cost of one more feat (essentially spending a feat for the 2h option).

This is only true if you are fighting people with very low AC, where you can land anything short of a 1 or very high AC where you can only hit people consistently by rolling on the Bastard Sword critical range (17-20 or 15-20 w/ keen + imp critical).

[Astral]

Right now, if I weapon focus on one handed edge and I use bastardsword, there's no reason for me to ever use it two handed instead of, say, a greatsword with higher base damage.

What I suggest is:
All weapons that fall under more than 1 weapon category should receive the relevant bonus to all categories on those weapons. So for example if someone takes weapon focus on polarm weapons they should get the bonus in all their modes and vice versa, one handed edge will apply to all mode of weapons under that category (like -twohand bastard sword). Just remove the code that checks weapon mode.

[Zavandar]

Spear was already one of the better weapons. It doesn't need a buff

Bastard sword is nice because it's the same focus as two blades swords. It lets rangers swap to sword and board if they want to. -twohanded weapons also let you swap for that extra damage on the fly as (iirc) equipping a shield doesn't give you the temporary ab penalty, but swapping a weapon will.

[Astral]

a shield doesn't give you the temporary ab penalty

Yes I forgot that part. Good point. It might worth to consider that a standard two weapon also gets +2 ab, so yes you effectively drop an attack in that round but if you can survive that round without the +6 ac from a shield, then from the next round it pays off more than -twohand. But if you got the bonus from weapon focus on both modes of the sword then it's worth it imo. I wont deny that the ab penalty of switching weapons can definitely be a determine factor to a fight in rare cases.

[Kaeldre]

There is still good reason to use the bastard sword when comparisons to polearms are being made. Polearms have a 20-20 threat range, while the bastard sword has 19-20. The difference might seem minor, but when you have invested into keen and improved critical you'll have the following:

• Polearm: 18-20

• Bastardsword: 15-20

Critical hits offer huge increases to your damage numbers and is one of your greatest threats in pvp. This is even more notable when using the -twohand command.

[Cortex]

Their critical range is smaller but their multiplier is 3x, which evens it out in terms of critical damage.

[White_935]

I would love to see exotic feat weapons that you can use having some bonus since you've paid a extra feat for them, without the performance being any particularly better.

The new weapon focuses makes polearm far superior since you have both the trident, and the spear in the same weapon focus, allowing your character to both use a full two handed weapon + sword and board (with a spear).

Preferably i'd love to see the two-hand for exotic feats gets a +1 ab (not +2) and the bonus damage as it.. but also count as a "Large" weapon in calculations that checks the weapon-size when used with two hands.

[garrbear758]

There is still good reason to use the bastard sword when comparisons to polearms are being made. Polearms have a 20-20 threat range, while the bastard sword has 19-20. The difference might seem minor, but when you have invested into keen and improved critical you'll have the following:

• Polearm: 18-20

• Bastardsword: 15-20

Critical hits offer huge increases to your damage numbers and is one of your greatest threats in pvp. This is even more notable when using the -twohand command.

Their critical range is smaller but their multiplier is 3x, which evens it out in terms of critical damage.

The damage does not even out. At lower AC values, the average damage is EXACTLY the same, assuming weapon properties are the same. (Same damage, keen, bonuses, etc.)
At higher AC values (AC=AB+12ish), the higher multiplier will out damage anything with 19-20 x2.

Outside of racial weapons (Moonblade, Dale Sword), there is absolutely no reason to use a 19-20 x2 weapon over a x3.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Right now, if I weapon focus on one handed edge and I use bastardsword, there's no reason for me to ever use it two handed instead of, say, a greatsword with higher base damage.

What I suggest is:
All weapons that fall under more than 1 weapon category should receive the relevant bonus to all categories on those weapons. So for example if someone takes weapon focus on polarm weapons they should get the bonus in all their modes and vice versa, one handed edge will apply to all mode of weapons under that category (like -twohand bastard sword). Just remove the code that checks weapon mode.

I thought your suggestion was already inplemented. Like if you had two handed feats, youcould receive said bonuses with a shield with a bastard sword.

[AstralUniverse]

Right now, if I weapon focus on one handed edge and I use bastardsword, there's no reason for me to ever use it two handed instead of, say, a greatsword with higher base damage.

What I suggest is:
All weapons that fall under more than 1 weapon category should receive the relevant bonus to all categories on those weapons. So for example if someone takes weapon focus on polarm weapons they should get the bonus in all their modes and vice versa, one handed edge will apply to all mode of weapons under that category (like -twohand bastard sword). Just remove the code that checks weapon mode.

I thought your suggestion was already implemented. Like if you had two handed feats, you could receive said bonuses with a shield with a bastard sword.

I dont think so? At least the updates/wiki dont sound like it. What I do know is that if you specialize in bastardsword as a WM then you're getting the WM stuff for bastardsword and not for the entire weapon type, meaning you get them for both one hand and two hand but that's just the WM feats which are weapon specific. I dont think it's like that for weapon focus/spec.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Right now, if I weapon focus on one handed edge and I use bastardsword, there's no reason for me to ever use it two handed instead of, say, a greatsword with higher base damage.

What I suggest is:
All weapons that fall under more than 1 weapon category should receive the relevant bonus to all categories on those weapons. So for example if someone takes weapon focus on polarm weapons they should get the bonus in all their modes and vice versa, one handed edge will apply to all mode of weapons under that category (like -twohand bastard sword). Just remove the code that checks weapon mode.

I thought your suggestion was already implemented. Like if you had two handed feats, you could receive said bonuses with a shield with a bastard sword.

I dont think so? At least the updates/wiki dont sound like it. What I do know is that if you specialize in bastardsword as a WM then you're getting the WM stuff for bastardsword and not for the entire weapon type, meaning you get them for both one hand and two hand but that's just the WM feats which are weapon specific. I dont think it's like that for weapon focus/spec.

People have been talking as if it is for a while. Id test in pgcc or even am already existing character

[Irongron]

Regarding the relative damage due to crits. While the numbers may be even, does damage spread not only play a part?

A bastard sword that crits more frequently would presumably more often breach those niche DRs of 9-12 than a pole arm with a lower crit range, but the same total damage output, and when coupled with a regenerating foe may do a better job of whittling them down than a pole arm where one has to rely on less frequent criticals.

It is a very edge case though, and while such creatures (especially summons) do exist, I cant say I'm entirely convinced the argument is sound (or the logic). Fights are also so short on Arelith one cannot easily account for sheer luck when comparing critical damage effectiveness.

[Nitro]

DR of 9-12 is entirely inconsequential to a STR warrior using either weapon since we're talking damage numbers in the 20's and upwards at the very least. A weapon that crits more often will do steadier damage, while one with a higher crit multiplier will burst harder.

[Tarkus the dog]

Bastard swords used to be pretty mediocre.

However, nowadays they are actually a pretty good pick to consider. Two-handed weapon focus gives you a weapon focus in bastard sword...

...and every other two-handed weapon in the game! At a low cost of one exotic weapon feat. Which is pretty neat. You can use a one-hander and a two-hander now whenever you want. Hooray. All orogs rejoice.

[AstralUniverse]

I thought your suggestion was already implemented. Like if you had two handed feats, you could receive said bonuses with a shield with a bastard sword.

I dont think so? At least the updates/wiki dont sound like it. What I do know is that if you specialize in bastardsword as a WM then you're getting the WM stuff for bastardsword and not for the entire weapon type, meaning you get them for both one hand and two hand but that's just the WM feats which are weapon specific. I dont think it's like that for weapon focus/spec.

People have been talking as if it is for a while. Id test in pgcc or even am already existing character

Well.. good to know since I have no idea what's going on anymore