Hide in Plain sight needs a longer cooldown.

[cowboy]

Shadow Dancers and Rangers currently get HIPS.

So do Shifters. (Shifter hips actually doesn't have a cooldown and can be spammed and that should probably be fixed.)

HIPS is insanely powerful in the age of needing lore. Most people who take spot will never find a stealther who is a shadow dancer.

Twelve seconds is not a balanced time; HIPS needs to be increased to 18 seconds and maybe 24 seconds.

Two rounds is a joke, three rounds is manageable, and four rounds requires strategy. You'll need to corner sneak and plan your moments to strike better.

But as it stands; even dedicated (especially non-elven or rogue) sensory stat investors will struggle against this. A time increase will make up for the lack of: true sight, need for high skill investment, and umberhulk form memery.

Oh, and shadow dancers/rangers/hips users can go into hips, exit hips (out of LoS), and enter stealth again to trigger their timer so they can attack and hips immediately which is no bueno.

[CptJonas]

Shadow Dancers and Rangers currently get HIPS.

So do Shifters. (Shifter hips actually doesn't have a cooldown and can be spammed and that should probably be fixed.)

HIPS is insanely powerful in the age of needing lore. Most people who take spot will never find a stealther who is a shadow dancer.

Twelve seconds is not a balanced time; HIPS needs to be increased to 18 seconds and maybe 24 seconds.

Two rounds is a joke, three rounds is manageable, and four rounds requires strategy. You'll need to corner sneak and plan your moments to strike better.

But as it stands; even dedicated (especially non-elven or rogue) sensory stat investors will struggle against this. A time increase will make up for the lack of: true sight, need for high skill investment, and umberhulk form memery.

Oh, and shadow dancers/rangers/hips users can go into hips, exit hips (out of LoS), and enter stealth again to trigger their timer so they can attack and hips immediately which is no bueno.

Thats why we have Faerie fire...dont we?
Spell which dont have save and needs to be dispeled before you can Enter stealth...

Use new tools..

And if we nerf Hips even more it would become total trash in PVE where buggy AI makes it pain even now...

And dont forget...its main feature of entire class...its like wanting to nerf crit/Sneak imu from PM, or WMs crits...

Same way I can complain about pala/bg diping which gives so much saves to so many builds with no drawback...unlike for examlpe monks AC from Wis...

[Anomandaris]

Shadow Dancers and Rangers currently get HIPS.

So do Shifters. (Shifter hips actually doesn't have a cooldown and can be spammed and that should probably be fixed.)

HIPS is insanely powerful in the age of needing lore. Most people who take spot will never find a stealther who is a shadow dancer.

Twelve seconds is not a balanced time; HIPS needs to be increased to 18 seconds and maybe 24 seconds.

Two rounds is a joke, three rounds is manageable, and four rounds requires strategy. You'll need to corner sneak and plan your moments to strike better.

But as it stands; even dedicated (especially non-elven or rogue) sensory stat investors will struggle against this. A time increase will make up for the lack of: true sight, need for high skill investment, and umberhulk form memery.

Oh, and shadow dancers/rangers/hips users can go into hips, exit hips (out of LoS), and enter stealth again to trigger their timer so they can attack and hips immediately which is no bueno.

Just curious, were you recently killed by a SD?

Dedicated Listen can totally beat MS. And 2 rounds is not a joke. Given that this class has garbage will and fort saves, it's enough time to get stunned, death spelled or KD'd. These builds also often have "decent" AC, but are more often glass cannons, relying on quick kill and stealth to survive combat.

And frankly, TS isn't the only tool. Clairvoyance and amplify (easily available). And hitting the lore threshold for TS is not that hard at all. Furthermore, activating anything meaningful (minus kits and blinding speed) require dropping stealth. So if you go invisible to counter that stealth and not get hit flat footed, I need to use a see invis wand to see you and now I'm out of stealth.

The last thing is combat is rarely 1v1. It happens, but a lot of PvP is group based. Someone in that party has a tool to beat the stealther. This is rock paper scissors, not every PC has a tool to beat every possible opponent.

HIPS is super powerful but there are many ways to beat it if you're savvy. Nerfing it to more than the two rounds would cripple the class. The thing that these stealth builds have the greatest advantage of is wearing someone down. Being able to hide, heal w/ kits and come back for more, and do it over and over again is terrifying. I've been on the other end of it. It's hard to finish them because they can sneak away and run away or start the fight on their terms. When that's happened to me, I've portaled out and avoided the long fight that I would have eventually lost. But look, someone who can literally fade away into the shadows should be a terrifying opponent, just like someone who can rip your soul from your body with a glance or crush your mind with a few words.

[cowboy]

I have not been killed by an SD. I have played characters with the feat and I do not like how powerful it is in the era of lacking UMD.

`haha bro i totally got killed by an SD thats the only reason i'd ever talk about something busted`


It's my feedback; certainly there are people who believe the opposite my feedback.

I know precisely what someone CAN do to counter it, however, because of how lopsided it is much more difficult to deal with someone with HIPS than it is to counter other people. With the other bonuses that rangers and Shadow Dancers get, make them a bit too much.

An increase in a cooldown isn't going to kill the sublime power of not needing to corner sneak. You can disappear in the middle of a nasty situation, repeatedly, and unless someone has gallons of consumes you're SOL. That's not good.

[Nitro]

Thats why we have Faerie fire...dont we?
Spell which dont have save and needs to be dispeled before you can Enter stealth...

Use new tools..

And if we nerf Hips even more it would become total trash in PVE where buggy AI makes it pain even now...

And dont forget...its main feature of entire class...its like wanting to nerf crit/Sneak imu from PM, or WMs crits...

Same way I can complain about pala/bg diping which gives so much saves to so many builds with no drawback...unlike for examlpe monks AC from Wis...

Faerie Fire is not wandable, and therefore locked to rare drop rods or druids.

[CptJonas]

I have not been killed by an SD. I have played characters with the feat and I do not like how powerful it is in the era of lacking UMD.

`haha bro i totally got killed by an SD thats the only reason i'd ever talk about something busted`


It's my feedback; certainly there are people who believe the opposite my feedback.

I know precisely what someone CAN do to counter it, however, because of how lopsided it is much more difficult to deal with someone with HIPS than it is to counter other people. With the other bonuses that rangers and Shadow Dancers get, make them a bit too much.

An increase in a cooldown isn't going to kill the sublime power of not needing to corner sneak. You can disappear in the middle of a nasty situation, repeatedly, and unless someone has gallons of consumes you're SOL. That's not good.

SD which you will meet in PVP situacion will not have other SD tools bcs more lvls then 5 Isnt realy good idea for PVP...

Ranger cant use that feature in like maybe 30% off all places...


To put it simply...Lore change was mainly to target problem with everyone having answer to everything...

Its good that now you have actualy classes/builds which have realy big problem with Hips...

And about having hard time countering Hips in comparison to others? I can give you quite easy example...much harder is counter brycers and all those melee machines with all saves is stratosfere....or exalt.. sorc with pala dip...There you have it Or maybe even healer cleric with pala and monk dip with crossbow...so you have something like 70 AC, 50+ AB, realy good saves..and you are still full caster (btw you use your wisdom for casting, AB, AC, )

[cowboy]

yes, Cpt. Jonas those classes also have balance issues. There are indeed problems with many div dips and those basically being a big deal. But not the topic of the thread. So please do not invoke them here.

Every single competent build can afford or will multiclass in some way that offers them UMD, sensory, or both.

But with those you will likely still fail to overcome the HIPs in an interesting or non-frustrating way.

Cooldowns are everywhere on the server. Gresto, Gsanc, Clarity, all of these were made to have 1 min + cooldowns, among other things, to balance them out and to ensure they do not invalidate PvE content.

I just think HIPS needs another round or two to be something in line with that; especially since you can only keep true sight up for a round w/o div. Not everyone has access to amplify (and also, again, irrelevant to this discussion but amplify is also TOO MUCH listen.)

[Void]

An increase in a cooldown isn't going to kill the sublime power of not needing to corner sneak. You can disappear in the middle of a nasty situation, repeatedly, and unless someone has gallons of consumes you're SOL. That's not good.

It kinda is going to kill it. 2 rounds out of stealth is more than enough to get murdered, making it four rounds will make HiPS nearly useless.

[CptJonas]

yes, Cpt. Jonas those classes also have balance issues. There are indeed problems with many div dips and those basically being a big deal. But not the topic of the thread. So please do not invoke them here.

Every single competent build can afford or will multiclass in some way that offers them UMD, sensory, or both.

But with those you will likely still fail to overcome the HIPs in an interesting or non-frustrating way.

Cooldowns are everywhere on the server. Gresto, Gsanc, Clarity, all of these were made to have 1 min + cooldowns, among other things, to balance them out and to ensure they do not invalidate PvE content.

I just think HIPS needs another round or two to be something in line with that; especially since you can only keep true sight up for a round w/o div. Not everyone has access to amplify (and also, again, irrelevant to this discussion but amplify is also TOO MUCH listen.)

I am just making my point...Hips insnt realy isue...there are combination which will totaly anihilate hipstr...and many combinations which are literaly unkilable by sneaker...

Yeah...Hips is strong and anoing...but there is a way to beat it...its not realy as big isue...to put it simply...if you are build which can be killed by hipster you can moust likely kill them yourself...and if you cant kill them, they cant kill you in moust cases...it still have flaws...its not perfect tool...

And bcs of all of it its no Real need to nerf it...if you would create list of broken combinations or builds or stuff in general...Hips would be quite low...

Personaly...where do I have problem with Hips? Its on ranger...they allready have so many realy good tools...they definetly dont need this...realy big bonus on Hide MS in wildernes? Maybe scaling bonus on movement speed in stealth in wildernes? Both ok...fine...

But only place where Hips could create toxic wombo combo is things like for example 21/9 ranger AA with Hips...

So if anything...dont nerf Hips...just dont give it as freebie to Rangers

[cowboy]

some people are also ignoring that rangers are a full BAB class with spell casting cabilities, have acces to hide / ms, wands & other umd, have an animal companion that is dangerous as hell, and in its archer variety can kite and own super hard. their damage is insane. a melee ranger is also deadly because of this and they can disappear.

Shadow Dancers, specifically those who actually invest in the class have a summon most dreadful that can effectively invalidate pve and is not to be ignored (is actually immune to wof and other things) for PvP purposes. If you think they are "killed and dead" for having a longer cooldown you might be playing this game from an alternate dimension.

I am not against HIPS. I am against how long the cooldown is and the more or less exploit you can do to ensure you always have hips at the ready.

[cowboy]

also hips should probably not be granted after a 5 level dip, it should be level 10.

[Nitro]

also hips should probably not be granted after a 5 level dip, it should be level 10.

Preach.

[CptJonas]

also hips should probably not be granted after a 5 level dip, it should be level 10.

That would delete Hips from all classes...only one with it would be SD...

And that SD woul have would have much harder life while on low lvls...

[Tarkus the dog]

I think HIPS is fine as it is.

[Void]

some people are also ignoring that rangers are a full BAB class with spell casting cabilities, have acces to hide / ms, wands & other umd, have an animal companion that is dangerous as hell, and in its archer variety can kite and own super hard. their damage is insane. a melee ranger is also deadly because of this and they can disappear.

It all sounds nice in theory, until you run into angry 700+ hp barbarian which runs faster than you and deals truckload of damage per swing.

Basically, you are supposed to be able to deal with that one way or another. Come up with better strategy. Classes with hips usually have a huge weakness somewhere. Either figure out how to deal with it yourself, or have a spotter/listener buddy.

It is rock paper scissors. If you're paper and they're scissors, bring a rock along with you, that's what party is for. HIPS is fine as it is. And 2 round cooldown is very very generous.

[Wuthering]

Does Faerie Fire prevent stealth and HiPS? From the description I though it just canceled invisibility.

[Tarkus the dog]

Right, ahehem.

First of all, everyone has the same movement speed on Arelith if they are hasted. There's a cap and no amount of movement speed helps you by-pass it. In other words, if you're hasted - your ms is the same as everyone else ( who's also hasted ).

HIPS absolutely needs a longer cooldown.

If being flatfooted every 12 seconds sounds like something that's fun to deal with for you, let me show you. Most people won't do this though, they'll just use those 12 seconds to go to safety and then spam healing kits while in stealth. Here's an idea - Using healing kits whilst sneaking should kick you out of the stealth mode.

But yeah, raise that thing to 18.

Also:

A pale glow surrounds and outlines the target and will remove concealment benefits from blur, displacement, invisibility, or similar magical effects.

Don't see HIPS in there.

[Void]

Right, ahehem.

First of all, everyone has the same movement speed on Arelith if they are hasted. There's a cap and

And if everybody is not hasted, the speed is going to be different.

You're thinking from powergamer position where you spent 3 thousand hours hoarding items, developed perfect strategy that includes 46 different potions, magic items and super rare gear and are already levl 30 on your main and on all your alts.

cowboy, likewise, is complaining that it is hard to counter somebody who has figured out how to play their class properly and invested into it.

The thing is, it is supposed to work this way. Every class has a weakness, and if you are badly matched with a sneak, the sneak will wear you down, despite being weaker than your super PC. That's why you bring a rock to counter their scissors.

A damn WIZARD can often spot sneaks effortlessly, and somebody with wisdom based class can have spot/listen values in the vicinity of let see... about 71 without trying too hard and without buffs. Avoiding this kind of dude would require sneak to have 91 in hide/ms. So find that guy and put him into your party.

Have fun.

P.S. Meanwhile shadowdancer doesn't even get any sneak attack dice.

[cowboy]

this is damage from a majority rogue/sd/fighter build.

this came from sneak attacks on a dexterity build


SD /do/ have sneak attacks. they are almost better rogues. They are not weak or gimped; and get several feats and other bonuses for free on Arelith.


a cooldown will not kill this power in them and that is not what i think should change



(that damage is fully achievable and natty)

[ReverentBlade]

You know you beat HIPS by pressing W, right?

[Void]

this is damage from a majority rogue/sd/fighter build.

AB and AC matter, and the screen does not list them.
The numbers are also kinda low.

This kind of damage won't be received most of the time if the target has AC 20 points above your AB, or if they're sneak immune.

Like I said, come up with a strategy.

[Kalopsia]

I think we should keep in mind that in order to make proper use of HiPS and stealth in general, characters need to invest 66 skill points, an epic feat, often a minor gift - and gear. The latter can involve great sacrifices in terms of saving throws if you're not willing to go for hard 5% rolls, in turn making the SD vulnerable against casters.

Meanwhile, the character fighting the SD needs just 25 Lore points and gets a decent chance of counterplay via True Seeing scrolls. It's not perfect counterplay, mind, but is it supposed to be? Shouldn't more effectively countering a feat that relies on such a high investment come with an investment that is higher than 25 skill points (and lets the character access other scrolls, too)?

Invest in detect skills. You may not have much luck using Spot to counter an SD - but you sure can use Listen. 33 ranks, a few pieces of gear and a potion of Amplify (that literally everyone can use) will already help a lot in that regard. Adding an ESF will net you 75 or more listen, which is enough for the vast majority of stealthers.
Without gear, just use a potion of Clairvoyance for another +10 Listen.

Detect mode is automatically enabled when standing still, by the way. If an SD disengages to restealth, don't move for a second and your char (with the above Listen skill) has good odds of hearing them.

[Tarkus the dog]

Hey actually I agree with Kalopsia.

Don't nerf my HiPS.

Once I stop playing my character you can nerf it, though.

[Ork]

HiPS is borked and really should have a longer cooldown. 4 rounds is perfect. In the hands of a capable player, HiPS is scary.

[ReverentBlade]

Literally just run in circles and you negate it entirely.