Intimidate for other classes

[Lilja_91]

The current classes that get intimidate are: assassin, barbarian, blackguard, purple dragon knight, rogue, weapon master.

I want to suggest also giving it to; Red Dragon Disciple and Fighter as they fit within the archetypes of the already allowed classes for intimidate.

Dragon Disciples are imposing and draconic.
Fighters can be anything, including enforcers, cut-throats and so forth.

[JustMonika]

The current classes that get intimidate are: assassin, barbarian, blackguard, purple dragon knight, rogue, weapon master.

I want to suggest also giving it to; Red Dragon Disciple and Fighter as they fit within the archetypes of the already allowed classes for intimidate.

Dragon Disciples are imposing and draconic.
Fighters can be anything, including enforcers, cut-throats and so forth.

Why not Paladin?

[Lilja_91]

Paladins do not inherently use violence and threat of violence as a way to dominate their way in social situations.

[JustMonika]

Paladins do not inherently use violence and threat of violence as a way to dominate their way in social situations.

They do against Evildoers.

[Lilja_91]

Paladins do not inherently use violence and threat of violence as a way to dominate their way in social situations.

They do against Evildoers.

I mean, I guess? Paladin still doesn't feel like a class that should get intimidate though.

[Tarkus the dog]

On Arelith fighters have intimidate.

[Lilja_91]

On Arelith fighters have intimidate.

Just need to give it to rdds then!

[AstralUniverse]

A paladin hypothetically should roll intimidate in some situations when threatening an evil doer.

[Hinty]

Paladins do not inherently use violence and threat of violence as a way to dominate their way in social situations.

Intimidation does not have to include violence, actual, or implied. You can also threaten people with punishments such as exile or imprisonment.

Imagine a Paladin sitting an evil doer down and explaining how their evil ways will lead to isolation and loneliness as society shuns them and even their family grow too ashamed to associate with them. Depending on how the paladin chooses to deliver the speech that could be done through persuasion or intimidation.

It is true that Paladins should strive to avoid causing unnecessary fear as controlling others through fear is somewhat evil, but on the other hand Paladins are something for evil doers to fear even if the paladin is not trying to amplify that effect. You can save a great many lives from a pointless battle if you can successfully walk into the room give an imposing glare and demand the enemy surrender.

[Lilja_91]

Paladins do not inherently use violence and threat of violence as a way to dominate their way in social situations.

Intimidation does not have to include violence, actual, or implied. You can also threaten people with punishments such as exile or imprisonment.

Imagine a Paladin sitting an evil doer down and explaining how their evil ways will lead to isolation and loneliness as society shuns them and even their family grow too ashamed to associate with them. Depending on how the paladin chooses to deliver the speech that could be done through persuasion or intimidation.

It is true that Paladins should strive to avoid causing unnecessary fear as controlling others through fear is somewhat evil, but on the other hand Paladins are something for evil doers to fear even if the paladin is not trying to amplify that effect. You can save a great many lives from a pointless battle if you can successfully walk into the room give an imposing glare and demand the enemy surrender.

You kinda said it though; "It is true that Paladins should strive to avoid causing unnecessary fear as controlling others through fear is somewhat evil" that is what I failed to put into words when I wrote that I feel intimidate is not a skill a paladin should have. Can paladins be imposing? Absolutely. But they should not strive to dominate others through fear. Whereas a dragon disciple is in more or less quite a prime position to have others leave them alone or to dominate through fear.

[Shadowy Reality]

I am slightly confused as to the point of this change. Will this mechanically change anything?

There are a few NPC dialog options which allow an Intimidate check. That asides only Terrifying Rage and PDK fear scale off Intimidate, but both these classes have intimidate.

Is this is solely to get a 'High' when others examine your character? I do not think many people go by that, nor do they have to.

[JustMonika]

It would save 4 skillpoints on crossclassing into Weaponmaster?

[AstralUniverse]

Is this is solely to get a 'High' when others examine your character? I do not think many people go by that, nor do they have to.

As far as I know, only str, dex, con and cha show on the examine.

It would save 4 skillpoints on crossclassing into Weaponmaster?

Then take fighter and then it's a class skill.

[JustMonika]

It would save 4 skillpoints on crossclassing into Weaponmaster?

Then take fighter and then it's a class skill.

(Snipped. Moderator Comment: Please keep your post constructive.)

[AstralUniverse]

It would save 4 skillpoints on crossclassing into Weaponmaster?

Then take fighter and then it's a class skill.

"Let's add Intimidate to more classes because they should have it too!"
"What benefits would that add?"
"Well, it'd make it easier to take weaponmaster!"
"Well just take a class that already has intimidate then. Obviously."

Come on Monika, what are you taking as your base class for your WM rather than fighter? Because there arent many good options for WMs /anyway/ and not crossing 4 points wont change that. Playing a WM without any fighter lvls is really bad (unless some barbarian/wm builds can live without fighter lvls but.. wait.. barbarian has intimidate) and if you do that then you dont get to complain about cross-classing things.

[JustMonika]

Then take fighter and then it's a class skill.

"Let's add Intimidate to more classes because they should have it too!"
"What benefits would that add?"
"Well, it'd make it easier to take weaponmaster!"
"Well just take a class that already has intimidate then. Obviously."

Come on Monika, what are you taking as your base class for your WM rather than fighter? Because there arent many good options for WMs /anyway/ and not crossing 4 points wont change that. Playing a WM without any fighter lvls is really bad (unless some barbarian/wm builds can live without fighter lvls but.. wait.. barbarian has intimidate) and if you do that then you dont get to complain about cross-classing things.

I am not complaining about cross classing things. This isn't my thread. It was asked what possible in game benefits giving a class intimidate would provide as the skill is extremely underused in game.
I provided a tiny fringe benefit. [And Paladin/Weapon Master seems fine to me?]

Not everyone sticks to the mechanically strictly best route, but I have no particularly stake in the game either way. It was asked what benefits it could possibly provide, I quoted an exteremely minor one.

[AstralUniverse]

I provided a tiny fringe benefit. [And Paladin/Weapon Master seems fine to me?]

There's no real benefit in that because there's no build that wants intimidate and doesnt take fighter or barbarian or pdk early and late. Paladin/Wm with no fighter lvls is doomed to suffer for so many reasons. cross classing 4 points is the least of it's concerns.

The only, really only, thing I can think of is some pdk build with no other classes with intimidate that wants to dip intimidate late game and already took all 10 pdk early without saving at least 1 last lvl for late game.

[JustMonika]

I provided a tiny fringe benefit. [And Paladin/Weapon Master seems fine to me?]

There's no real benefit in that because there's no build that wants intimidate and doesnt take fighter or barbarian or pdk early and late. Paladin/Wm with no fighter lvls is doomed to suffer for so many reasons. cross classing 4 points is the least of it's concerns.

The only, really only, thing I can think of is some pdk build with no other classes with intimidate that wants to dip intimidate late game and already took all 10 pdk early without saving at least 1 last lvl for late game.

I will stress, as I always do that, far from everyone on Arelith takes a "Build".

[Lilja_91]

I am slightly confused as to the point of this change. Will this mechanically change anything?

There are a few NPC dialog options which allow an Intimidate check. That asides only Terrifying Rage and PDK fear scale off Intimidate, but both these classes have intimidate.

Is this is solely to get a 'High' when others examine your character? I do not think many people go by that, nor do they have to.

Actually to enable Red Dragon Disciple builds classing with Barbarian. For instance, the build I am currently doing:
16 barb, 4 bard and 10 rdd. Neither bard nor RDD get intimidate which means that you more or less start with 15 Barbarian and have to take last Barbarian (16) at 30 to get intimidate. That means that terrifying rage is not very impactful until you reach level 30.

PS. I find it a little sad that the default combination is with Paladin or Blackguard because they are simply the most powerful combos. And part of the reason I feel that there's just little else that currently can combo with RDD.

[Void]

Paladins do not inherently use violence and threat of violence as a way to dominate their way in social situations.

Intimidation does not have to include violence, actual, or implied. You can also threaten people with punishments such as exile or imprisonment.

No, it does exactly that. From player handbook:

Use this skill to get a bully to back down, to frighten an opponent, or to make a prisoner give you the information you want. Intimi-dation includes verbal threats and body language.

It is also a good skill for a torturer.

Imagine a Paladin sitting an evil doer down and explaining how their evil ways will lead to isolation and loneliness as society shuns them and even their family grow too ashamed to associate with them.

That's diplomacy/persuasion, and paladins have this as a class skill. Because you're trying ot make them to rethink their ways through reasoning. Intimidate makes them fear YOU. Not some future punishment. Persuasion make them rethink their ways and see a differnet viewpoint.

(Diplomacy)Description
Use this skill to persuade the chamberlain to let you see the king, to negotiate peace between feuding barbarian tribes, or to convince the ogre mages that have captured you that they should ransom you back to your friends instead of twisting your limbs off one by one. Diplomacy includes etiquette, social grace, tact, subtlety, and a way with words. A skilled character knows the formal and informal rules of conduct, social expectations, proper forms of address, and so on. This skill represents the ability to give others the right impression of oneself, to negotiate effectively, and to influence others.

Also, while good does not mean nice, the ultimate good would seek to redeem evil, when possible. When good is combined with law, it means treating prisoner with respect and making sure due process is followed. See book of exhalted deeds for more info.
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In PnP Fighter has intimidate as a class skill, while red dragon disciple doesn't.

[AstralUniverse]

I am slightly confused as to the point of this change. Will this mechanically change anything?

There are a few NPC dialog options which allow an Intimidate check. That asides only Terrifying Rage and PDK fear scale off Intimidate, but both these classes have intimidate.

Is this is solely to get a 'High' when others examine your character? I do not think many people go by that, nor do they have to.

Actually to enable Red Dragon Disciple builds classing with Barbarian. For instance, the build I am currently doing:
16 barb, 4 bard and 10 rdd. Neither bard nor RDD get intimidate which means that you more or less start with 15 Barbarian and have to take last Barbarian (16) at 30 to get intimidate. That means that terrifying rage is not very impactful until you reach level 30.

PS. I find it a little sad that the default combination is with Paladin or Blackguard because they are simply the most powerful combos. And part of the reason I feel that there's just little else that currently can combo with RDD.

I agree that RDD should have it as class skill. Paladin.... I dont know. I suppose cross-class makes more sense. Also, I'm pretty sure there are more barbarian RDDs than divine RDDs out there in recent years. Tundering Rage getting buffed to give apr is probably the reason.

[Lilja_91]

Well, personally; I too argued against paladins getting intimidate. As it stands (since fighters already have it) I am suggesting that RDDs get intimidate as it fits the class very well.

[Ebonstar]

not playing right now do to work but ive seen a bunch of these threads recently when i pop in

i have a solution for them all

we have one class that can do everything with every skill and power, spells sneaks crits the whole lot.

sounds silly right

there is a reason why some classes have things and others do not

[Nitro]

not playing right now do to work but ive seen a bunch of these threads recently when i pop in

i have a solution for them all

we have one class that can do everything with every skill and power, spells sneaks crits the whole lot.

sounds silly right

there is a reason why some classes have things and others do not

Ok let's just remove everything but one thing from all classes so they can only do that one thing then.

Sounds silly right?

There is a reason why classes aren't pidgeonholed into just one thing.

[Void]

Well, personally; I too argued against paladins getting intimidate. As it stands (since fighters already have it) I am suggesting that RDDs get intimidate as it fits the class very well.

They're kinda focused on advancing their dragon transformation and not on bullying folks about. There are also different kinds of dragons, so while Intimidate might make sense for chromatic dragon disciple, it doesn't make sense for a metallic one.