Outcasts and supporting RP

[CNS]

So when looking at outcasts, they are supposed to be people so reviled and having committed or been accused of deeds so vile they are defacto exiled from all good aligned settlements on Arelith and forced to live in the underdark as their only option.

Npcs all recognise them and players have the tag to let them know a player is an outcast.

My question is, given their crimes are supposed to be well known enough across the islands, should we require/ask/recommend outcasts to put a line about what they are oucast for in their examin bio?

I know it's meant to be for what you can see but;

When Paladin Pete examine Evil Ed the outcast it'd be far better if Pete knew what Ed had done, rather than just that Ed has the evil badge on therefore must oppose.

Surely, to be an outcast, even at level 2 evil ed must have done something bad enough that anyone with a reasonable passing interest should know about him? Otherwise why does every shopkeeper and ferryman?

I'd appreciate everyone's thoughts on this

[garrbear758]

Some people do this, but I don't believe it's required. I enjoy it when I see it though.

[Wuthering]

My opinion, a level 3 outcast should have an idea what their backstory is but I don't think they should be obligated to have it all fleshed out yet. Let people live in their characters a little while they work it out.

[CNS]

My opinion, a level 3 outcast should have an idea what their backstory is but I don't think they should be obligated to have it all fleshed out yet. Let people live in their characters a little while they work it out.

While I agree, it does seem like someone playing a vampire without knowing how they became a vampire. Its fine to start with a blanker page and let it fill in over time but should we expect a little more for fundamental parts of our character that have an impact on others?

[Echohawk]

Outcasts are meant to be abhorred. Being buddies with them is why the tag probably got added in the first place when people were not taking the background with any degree of seriousness.

Outcasts are some degree of:
Murderer, gross indecency, affiliation with wretched beings/magics, unapologetic criminal (so bad you can't even be a pirate), scourge of the good aligned faiths, and on and on. That said obviously this is not a complete list, but these are meant to be awful people who either spent enough time too dark and deep and are associated with it, or came with a background placing them there in the first place. One way or another, by posters or general knowledge, all characters who are of the surface are allowed to know someone is an outcast by looking at them. Just not necessarily their name.

That said! If I were to see a level 3 by mistake walking around on the surface, my instinct isn't to just murder them after a brief required roleplay. Help drive the point home and get them back where they belong. For me it would be the right thing to do as a player. Or even if there's higher levels potentially you can seek "What're you doing here" and meet them away from surface populations. But if you expect an outcast character who repeatedly visits Cordor muttering about the weather and stealing children, you're going to get your healthy share of PVP.

That said you're absolutely allowed to build your backstory as you go along, it doesn't necessarily all have to be known at the start. Just understand that regardless of how filled out it is that people will still react to the status, and they are permitted to.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

It's really awkward because it's an epic background for a starting character. I think becoming an actual outcast is something that can only be achieved through RP. For example, Tyros Iaret was more of an outcast than a level 2 outcast character. There were a lot of places where people would raise alarm if he was seen entering them, people would panic and worry at his presence. Heck, people even paid attention to anyone speaking with Tyros and would react to them far harsher than they react to non-violent outcast characters. I'm not really a fan of the system how it currently exists.

[Wuthering]

My opinion, a level 3 outcast should have an idea what their backstory is but I don't think they should be obligated to have it all fleshed out yet. Let people live in their characters a little while they work it out.

While I agree, it does seem like someone playing a vampire without knowing how they became a vampire. Its fine to start with a blanker page and let it fill in over time but should we expect a little more for fundamental parts of our character that have an impact on others?

A vampire has to send a very detailed application to DMs. That's an exception.

If you're speaking generally.. Obviously the more detail you have about your character is better.. I am just saying a level 3 outcast may just be a player "testing the waters" and while they ought to have a vague notion in mind I wouldn't call them bad roleplayers if they don't have the full story yet. That character might not even be around tomorrow after all, I'm sure more than half of level 3s don't make it to 4.

Once they're around a while and becoming a part of things (and once they're interacting with the surface for sure) I think they should have it worked out. Just give the new guy some breathing room if they don't seem to have it all in place yet.

[The GrumpyCat]

A small clarification - Outcasts are outcasts not neccesarly because they are 'the most evil evil' (if so there would be no neutral ones) but because they've done somethign which can be seen to be socially unacceptable, or reputed to have done something. This opens up a fair few more possiblities.

Here's a suggestion for how to rp the whole matter.
Only those who are citizens of a settlment can recognise outcasts. So...

Consider it to be 'mild word of mouth,' from the npcs. Maybe they themselves don't quite know why Such-and-such is an Outcast, why he's so reviled he had to flee into the dark, but they do know that he/she did /something./

When Bob the Outcast walks into town, mothers grab their children and hurry them indoors. Men spit at Bob, and move across the road to avoid him. Washerwomen mutter behind their palms, and chortle to one another. Taverns go quiet when Bob enters, and the barman scowles, refusing to serve him. Some say Bob is a necromancer. Some say he stole a horse. Other say he murdered his brother. A few mutter he did -terrible- things with a certain goat named Nancy. No one is sure what, but no one wants him in their town, and instead of owning up to itlike a real man, he scurries underground to be with the drow, the goblins, the bugbears, the worst of the worst. That's the crowd Bob hangs out with. Bob is bad news.

[Hazard]

A few mutter he did -terrible- things with a certain goat named Nancy.

I knew it!

[Morgy]

A small clarification - Outcasts are outcasts not neccesarly because they are 'the most evil evil' (if so there would be no neutral ones) but because they've done somethign which can be seen to be socially unacceptable, or reputed to have done something. This opens up a fair few more possiblities.

Here's a suggestion for how to rp the whole matter.
Only those who are citizens of a settlment can recognise outcasts. So...

Consider it to be 'mild word of mouth,' from the npcs. Maybe they themselves don't quite know why Such-and-such is an Outcast, why he's so reviled he had to flee into the dark, but they do know that he/she did /something./

When Bob the Outcast walks into town, mothers grab their children and hurry them indoors. Men spit at Bob, and move across the road to avoid him. Washerwomen mutter behind their palms, and chortle to one another. Taverns go quiet when Bob enters, and the barman scowles, refusing to serve him. Some say Bob is a necromancer. Some say he stole a horse. Other say he murdered his brother. A few mutter he did -terrible- things with a certain goat named Nancy. No one is sure what, but no one wants him in their town, and instead of owning up to itlike a real man, he scurries underground to be with the drow, the goblins, the bugbears, the worst of the worst. That's the crowd Bob hangs out with. Bob is bad news.

I think this is a great and easy to understand explanation of an outcast. Something like this should be posted prominently for players looking for more info about playing or interacting with a PC outcast (if it is not already stated this clearly in game!)

Would it be possible to make NPCs do random emotes on sighting outcasts? Such as *Spits in the direction of Bob*

Edit: A problem with my emote suggestion I suppose would be that a PC cannot engage properly with an NPC spitting at them - which may be out of character for them to ignore such an insult.

[Void]

A few mutter he did -terrible- things with a certain goat named Nancy.

I knew it!

I suppose that's one way to end up in Andunor.

[CNS]

I think we should find a way to make This information more apparently on character creation. I know for a while when I was newer I thought it was just a thing to start in the UD as a human and didn't appreciate the full extent of what it meant.

[Petrifictus]

Being Outcast dont always need to mean your character being guilty to some scum and villainy.
Maybe your family’s name got involved with something infamous, be it true or not but strong enough to ruin you.

Maybe your half-orc is bastard heir of ruthless orog murderer?

Maybe your human was blackpainted as worshipper of shunned evil deity and commoners with paladins drove you away with torches, rather than investigate the facts.

[DangerDolphin]

We should open up NG/CG Outcasts imo.

The whole Outcast = Must be evil so we can kill it trope just encourages lazy RP and PvP.

I get if you're an evil aligned surfacer murdering an Outcast on sight, or if the Outcast is a known criminal/raider and is acting threatening, but Good/Neutral ones not so much.

[Petrifictus]

We should open up NG/CG Outcasts imo.

The whole Outcast = Must be evil so we can kill it trope just encourages lazy RP and PvP.

I get if you're an evil aligned surfacer murdering an Outcast on sight, or if the Outcast is a known criminal/raider and is acting threatening, but Good/Neutral ones not so much.

I dont mind good outcasts but I would put them behind reward like normal or greater with option for other surface races like monsters who now get Sencliff ink.

Otherwise we get horde of good outcasts taking over districts and shunning evil alignments.

[Complex]

something should be changed if it is meant to be taken as grumpy suggested. as of now, outcast means evil and killable and if someone pvps you for it after a one liner there is nothing you can do about it since “outcasts are evil and killable”.

maybe the guides/info we have simply needs to be changed and made an announcement, or maybe the whole system needs to be reviewed, but the reality we have now is far from whispers and chortling. yes, i know adventurers are something else in our world but rn the tag is, at times, just an excuse to get pvped on.

[CptJonas]

We should open up NG/CG Outcasts imo.

The whole Outcast = Must be evil so we can kill it trope just encourages lazy RP and PvP.

I get if you're an evil aligned surfacer murdering an Outcast on sight, or if the Outcast is a known criminal/raider and is acting threatening, but Good/Neutral ones not so much.

I dont mind good outcasts but I would put them behind reward like normal or greater with option for other surface races like monsters who now get Sencliff ink.

Otherwise we get horde of good outcasts taking over districts and shunning evil alignments.

My point entierly...I dont understand why Medium reward which can make UD Monster race into Good one dont work on outcasts...heck...it can make you LG goblin paladin, but cant make your human outcast good? Like what?

[Griefmaker]

A few mutter he did -terrible- things with a certain goat named Nancy.

I knew it!

My guy thought that she was Sally, who is apparently socially acceptable! It is not his fault he cannot tell one goat from another...sheesh

[matheusgraef]

I'm all for people adding the reasoning or backstory for their outcast in the description. I had a half-orc that was more orc than man and that was a very abhorrent sight, I'd write about how the mere sight of him drove children away in tears and made your everyday peasant go for the dagger just in case.

How other players react to that it's entirely up to them.

Which is why I think that adding a "heinous act" background to your description is kind of forced, sometimes you just need to add the focal points: "He wore a belt of hanging, mummified fingers" or "They carried a prominent tome made of human skin" or "She bore a sygil of Asmodeus upon her forehead" are pretty big red flags to any goodly surfacer, in my opinion.

[CNS]

Yeah clarification, I was being narrow minded in the opening post. I guess the request is the reason for your outcast status should be obvious or well known - it would be nice if it could be included in your examine description.

[The GrumpyCat]

Haya

You can make a neutral aligned outcast actually, just not good aligned.

Good aligned outcast is an award I'm sorta interested in, but I'm a little split. On the one hand I think it could result in some fun concepts, on the other...

We should open up NG/CG Outcasts imo.

The whole Outcast = Must be evil so we can kill it trope just encourages lazy RP and PvP.

I get if you're an evil aligned surfacer murdering an Outcast on sight, or if the Outcast is a known criminal/raider and is acting threatening, but Good/Neutral ones not so much.

I dont mind good outcasts but I would put them behind reward like normal or greater with option for other surface races like monsters who now get Sencliff ink.

Otherwise we get horde of good outcasts taking over districts and shunning evil alignments.

I think if it was implemented it'd definatly be behind an award.

[Wuthering]

I think we should find a way to make This information more apparently on character creation. I know for a while when I was newer I thought it was just a thing to start in the UD as a human and didn't appreciate the full extent of what it meant.

IDK if you know but you're forced to read a strongly worded warning in-game when you make a new one now. I think that suffices.

[Vylarah]

Now, I know this is a couple of months late to the party... but given that this has come up of late once again to the topic of discussion whispered on many a lip, so it would seem to me at least. I wished to add my two cents into the matter, since Outcast has been made into a normal reward.

Essentially, while yes, it has encouraged people to take the slave background, or branch out into other underdark dwelling races... there have also been some issues with the humans, and other slaves that have been coming into Andunor.

Primarily, that they do not act like slaves. About a good thirty, or forty (Purely speculative based on observation) percent of the slave populace of late, act like they are outcasts with extra steps. They are not scared of people who outrank them socially, or will regularly OPENLY oppose people who try to chastise them for such behaviour.

I will admit, I was, and quite possibly may still be guilty of that, past and present, however, as I haven't really played a slave since my last character who bore a collar was freed, which is why, looking upon this issue with a fresh pair of eyes, it saddens me to see an RP tool with huge potential being treated as a minor inconvenience at worst for some characters.

This then brings me to my point, regarding it all... I believe that outcasts, and slaves should become a minor reward, and/or require an application to the DMs to make sure your concept works within the setting which we have been given. My reasoning for such is pretty straightforward... while Andunor is primarily a trade city, it is the ONLY place the vast majority of underdark races can actually start. Not only that, but there are some people, who are and have picked the backgrounds purely for the mechanical ability to get access to the UD only portals, before the slaves get freed, and come back as if nothing was ever wrong in the first place.

[Drowboy]

That's about as expected, and I'm seeing it as well. It doesn't help that the proliferation of fake-outcast slaves has made it so a lot of people don't even bother treating them as slaves at this point, as the 'slave' is just as likely to start fighting people over it as anything else.

It might help if the 'normal reward' outcasts were actually available, though, since they are still bugged as of this post.

[magistrasa]

Bad slave RP is not a new feature and opening availability to outcasts won't fix it. The slavery mechanics themselves need to get beefed up to actually feel like a ball-and-chain. Whether it's because no one wants to be mean to slaves because we're all decent people OOC, or because of the fact that a slave's excuses for haughtiness is tied to their master, more often than not it's the slave's master who suffers the consequences of their misconduct. The fact that slaves have next to no penalties on their character sheet means they can blitz to epic levels and mirror whatever confidence they have in their build because they know that no one will mess with them. The culture of slavery in Andunor is just as weak as the mechanics. I wholeheartedly believe that the mechanics need to change well before we can expect the culture to follow.

Here's some ideas:
- Bar slaves from wearing amulets. Their neck slot is occupied by the collar, right? That's a fair chunk of stats and skills we don't need to worry about.
- Bar slaves from wearing heavy armor. Sure, there's the argument of "what if my slave is a gladiator?" Well, I'd argue that most slave masters would know better than to let their cattle wear high quality protective gear, because depriving the lesser peoples of things they need to live is how you keep them weak and under control.
- Bar slaves from taking prestige classes. I don't have really solid justification for this one because it just popped into my head, but, y'know, "prestige" + "slave" doesn't really work out. Plus, if prestige classes imply a higher level of training - well, where's a slave getting that training? (Idk if this is feasible due to coding issues I've heard of where the game always thinks you're a slave even if you're free but it's worth a mention.)
- Add a high save or saveless effect to collars. Dominate Person, Hold Person, Combustion, Finger of Agony, Energy Drain, something to make the collar itself a heavy and terrible thing to wear.
- High Concentration debuff. Like a -20 to Concentration or something. Something to signify that a slave has lived a life of ceaseless agony and they have residual trauma from their experiences that makes it difficult to focus in the face of danger. Make them succeptible to Taunts and make the hedge mages more likely to fail in their self-taught spells.
- Cut off leveling at level 20 and potentially even de-level captured slaves (or perhaps achieve the same effect with Energy Drain as with a previous suggestion?). This would undeniably be a Pufferfish move, but it would undeniably solidify the slave's status as a weaker lower class, and make removing the collar a lot more necessary and desirable. I've seen people interacting with slaves out of a position of fear and apprehension, because they'd seen that slave kill a bunch of people with impunity in the past. What the heck is that about!

Slaves are Arelith: Easy Mode. Arguably, they always have been. You get to be the best race in the game, with access to all the richest sources of loot and XP, while thrust into a social standing that actually leaves you better off in the long run. It's no wonder that setup would attract a lot of bad actors (as in literally, they're bad at acting like slaves, because the fact that they're a slave is an afterthought while they instead focus on those aforementioned benefits). It's a skeleton of a system that needs to be better filled out.

As an aside - with regards to that "game always thinks you're a slave if you were a slave at character creation" thing (if that's even still a problem) - maybe ditch that part of the code and make slaves start on a different boat from other UD races, where in order to get off the boat they need to get collared by the NPC blocking the way out? That way you can also establish how slaves are expected to act and be treated by other NPCs sprinkled in the area. Doesn't even really need to be a boat I suppose, they could feasibly start in one of the holes in the slave pits. I dunno, food for thought.