new spells

[Apokriphos]

Shadowmage has long been considered weak, the red headed step child of mage paths, from nearly since its inception. I could probably find 50 individual quotes from both well respected members of this forum & in build expertise discord saying variations on that phrase. Of course, it is due to the quickness of how it was built, of which the origins can be found in discord, and the harm of losing access to IGMS in a save heavy meta. Additionally, Illusion spell school has been considered with much the same feedback.

It is also clear the developers have decided to adjust the illusion school on that consideration. This has the consequence of pushing the sm path to be more similar to its Shadow Adept inspiration, similar to how they have done so for Spellsword and Wild Mage. I imagine they will continue to do so long into the future, which may lead to a shadow adept class with actual evocation spells. Basing your argument on a misperceived notion of how you believe the shadowmage is supposed to function is irrelevant to this feedback. My analysis of evocation spells and whether their shadow variants will see any use, however, is not.

A Sorcerer Paladin focused in evocation to avoid Hellball Biteback will use Darkbolt to complement their IGMS spam. Seems a fairly straightforward understanding of how the meta build is typically played.

[Sockss]

It was weak, prior to several major changes. Now it's rather strong, even prior to the recent spell update. Major updates tend to shift things around.

What's clear is a single developer has added in spells to eradicate most of the trade-off that the SM takes mechanically. I don't know how it is supposed to function, there's no stated direction from it and Mithreas was the originator, but I would assume that it was not supposed to function in a superior manner to the base class.

A sorceror paladin may well use the spell after they have run out of IGMS, however they wouldn't use it better and it would always be a second, or third, choice.

[Apokriphos]

I looked carefully over the patch notes for the past year, and the only 'buff' the shadowmage got before the new spells were released was a bug fix regarding dispel resistance and spell penetration when shadowmages take shadowdancer levels. A bug fix on one of their three singular perks that they have had since the beginning of the class. This bug fix was identical to what palemasters had gotten half a year earlier and hardly what I would consider a 'major change'.

Even if that was your major change, it is known that shadowmages benefit far more taking a divine class such as ranger for the free bonus epic feat/discipline/trackless step/divine wands or bard for umd/discipline/perform then shadowdancer which lacks all of those & discipline - another skill very useful in pvp, as you pointed out.

Comparing those perks to, say, Spellsword, it is clear to see the massive gulf between paths. Spellsword, which in many cases is a straight upgrade to melee builds, is both popular and commonly acknowledged as a top tier build in most situations, that can solo dragons via melee alone and breach and high dc silence on hit, while still being able to toss a Timestop or IGMS when needed. Wildmages, as many have already pointed out in other threads, also have significantly more then three perks, and with their fate command, their custom spell shield, and the ability to regain spellslots at high levels. Trueflame mage paired with harper mage is unspeakably powerful; alone with infinite darkness, infinite bigby and Iceberg - with never a worry about running out of spell components; and in a pvp group as the glass cannon. All of those paths are significant upgrades to the standard mage if well built, but come at the cost of a different play-style and a different niche in which they excel.

You spoke of a single rogue developer making these changes, but development in Arelith, as far as I am aware, is done by consensus as a team.

[Sockss]

Wew, lets take this one bit at a time.

You do not need direct class changes to become stronger or weaker. (These new spells are a clear example of that)

I'll skip the next paragraph because I certainly wasn't advocating SM's take SD, I'm not sure how you misconstrued that.

Pretty much everything can solo dragons, it's not a good basis of strength.

One spellsword variant is top-tier (the dex/div) others are mediocre and there are more viable melee non SS builds, than SS builds. (Though it's not really relevant to the thread)

There is a big gulf between paths, I agree. SM is better than SS and WM. WM is better than your natural wizard, yes, but there have been steps taken to reduce their bonuses, they haven't been given more - if they lacked chaos shield and improved chaos shield, with negative surges being worse they'd be alright.

True Flame is weaker than all the arcane paths and the base classes, unless you're looking solely at group PvE - whether or not you pair it with Harper Mage.

I didn't speak of a 'rogue' developer. I spoke of a sole developer (who I cheekily said likely plays a shadowmage, but not very well - maybe they play a gnome too!), that's entirely different. I don't think the developer has done anything wrong, rather they just don't have a good handle on mechanics or the ramifications of the spells outside their own experiences.

Arelith development is usually pet-projects by developers, not a team consensus.

[Johnsmith]

Agreed with the consensus here, the new spells need dialed back.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

For starters, illusionists already had access to cone of cold and fireball through shades, so them having illusion evocation spells isn't new.

Secondly, the shadow evocation spells are actually core spells that nearly every single illusionist that gives up evocation takes- shockingly (not) most of them also give up conjuration spells, because they can shadow conjuration instead.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowEvocation.htm
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shado ... reater.htm

Normally if you disbelieve these spells (will save before the spell they're mimicking) they only do partial damage, which scales with the level variant of the spells.

I won't debate whether or not these additional options are an increase in mechanical strength- but I will debate that these options shouldn't have been available from the beginning. They should have.

As an extra consideration- I don't feel that this is actually going to make shadow-mages that much more deadly, because the reason they're stupid strong is DC44 kill spells. Disjunction, wail/weird. I might advocate that said spells get a will save before their simulated saves, with % damage reduction based on the will save as per the core spells.

[Ork]

I'm not sure if Zav added this into his calculations but, darkbolt can crit.

[Chosen Son]

Also worth considering is that Shadow Storm is will (vs mind effecting) based, not reflex so the 20d8 vs primary and 10d8 vs secondary are not effected by evasion or imp evasion.

[BHR55]

Also worth considering is that Shadow Storm is will (vs mind effecting) based, not reflex so the 20d8 vs primary and 10d8 vs secondary are not effected by evasion or imp evasion.

This should have a follow up reflex save, Will check. Also update the description to better illustrate the fact that illusory versions are less potent than their 'real' counterparts in raw damage.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Also worth considering is that Shadow Storm is will (vs mind effecting) based, not reflex so the 20d8 vs primary and 10d8 vs secondary are not effected by evasion or imp evasion.

This should have a follow up reflex save, Will check. Also update the description to better illustrate the fact that illusory versions are less potent than their 'real' counterparts in raw damage.

If that's the case, then that is awesome (the illusory factor with follow up save)

[Aren]

I'm not sure if Zav added this into his calculations but, darkbolt can crit.

Confirmed. It shouldn’t be able to do so.

[Wuthering]

Shadowmage has long been considered weak, the red headed step child of mage paths, from nearly since its inception. I could probably find 50 individual quotes from both well respected members of this forum & in build expertise discord saying variations on that phrase.

That was always conventional wisdom but conventional wisdom can be myopic. For example many have said they are inferior since they can't spam IGMS which is easily the most used (and predictable) brute force arcanist tactic. But taking away IGMS spam isn't as crippling as taking away a weaponmaster's weapon.

I think in the game they actually prove very strong when played with unconventional cleverness. Even before this update I would never underestimate a shadow mage.

[Complex]

hello again. a few things:



does the mind immunity message there mean the will save goes off even if you don't hit any bolts? this was a pure monk with tons of dex, if i am not wrong, so the missed bolts are not surprising here.

on average, with a sorc bard, i have been hitting 4-6 bolts:



they still can crit and you can truestrike them. this person was hasted and fully buffed by me (in full addy gear). taking into account the eldritch ways that the grim yeeter and savn have explained... one can easily reach a considerable DC for a 5th circle WILL save and shadowmages can easily flat foot people while moving all around the place hasted to reposition.

not only this spell favors shadowmages for giving them direct damage WITH a will save, but it grants all mages a power they didn't need. let's say a silly mundane tries to fight me, a caster overlord, what is he meant to do? run around while i kite them into oblivion OR stunlock them into an evo combo? chug heal potions until i screw up and ruin my positioning? obviously a shadowmage can never ruin their positioning unless they don't know what is going on, but still. i don't even want to get started on spellswords with high ab, high ac and blind fight.

the amount of saves that go off with both tentacles is ridiculous, and the fire one is just ??? but many people have already said that. are these spells going to get tweaked? i do not mean to come off as rude but most of the answers we have gotten were about typos, and the only response we got that had any substance called the shadowmage design philosophy flawed while ignoring these changes that only make them stronger (since only weaknesses were addressed and not a whole 'flawed' path).

[-XXX-]

Seems like a case of introducing a path class that was designed to trade certain upsides for some downsides, then removing the downsides while overcompensating.
...inb4 massive nerf to shadow mages... all of this starts reminding me of the kensai lifecycle tbh.

[Apokriphos]

The Developer of these spells already said the criticals from darkbolt will be removed. Additionally, using 8th level maximized spellslots to compare the efficacy of a 5th level spell on PGCC is disingenuous.

Still, lets take a look.

Using your numbers and assuming they are correct with the 4-6 hits that you mentioned, or 5 on average, leads to 16x5, or 80 damage magical, Maximized, to a single target, if they don't have dex ac. AND if they arent using concealment. Who doesn't use concealment in PvP? If they are, that is likely 40 damage.

Additionally, gearing in PGCC is quite difficult and time consuming, and real world hits will likely be worse due to better gearing as well.

Still, lets compare that to some other 8th level spellslots. IGMShttps://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Isaac%27s_g ... sile_storm fires 2d6 bolts to a maximum of 10 per target in Arelith, and achieves its best damage with two targets. It doesn't hit allies. No touch attach required. An 8th level spellslot of empowered IGMS deals on average, 90 magical damage to two targets unless they have the visible obvious shield spell up.

Or another 8th level spell, Horrid Wilting. 25d8 magical damage, fortitude save for half. If they don't make the save - which is significant for your Max Intelligence ShadowMage that you created in the PGCC, the average damage is 100, to any number of targets in an area, barring shadow shield.

Using your numbers it is fairly clear that a Darkbolt occupying its maximized positions is actually inferior to two other magical damage sources on the same spell level. One target instead of 2 or multiple, and less damage on that single target. The will save check on your max int shadowmage, happening once, is lower then most other spells used in combat.

You took some interesting pictures. Especially this one:



This picture demonstrates how easy these bolts are to avoid if dex based. Even more so if the attack bonus granted from weapons is removed.

This spell is hardly overpowered. It is actually the weakest of the three spells you can easily compare it to. It is just another tool in a toolbox to be used against specific foes who lack dex ac.

[Complex]

how can you compare a fortitude save to a will save? and i already said this is no "max intelligence shadowmage" but a sorc bard. the fact that you come and say 'this spell is weak' because i missed hits on a MONK is something else and completely ignores the other BUNCH of mundane builds that are not monks and will get hit by this spell.

again, the fact that you are comparing horrid wilting (which is a horrible spell cause of the way it works, with the things having to spawn from the ground and etc) and darkbolt is you being disingenuous. also, why are you comparing it to empowered igms when shadowmages can not cast any igms spells? you too are ignoring the fact that this, along with all of the other added spells, favors shadowmages and gives more tools to classes that didn't need them (like all other mages in general).

also, in case i need to make it clearer: whatever damage darkbolt can do to people is better than the 0 shadowmages had before when it comes to this type of missile spells. there was no need to get more tools for people who lacked dex ac, because any competent wizard can demolish most mundane builds without any issues. but oh well, at least now they will have a blast when people spam them with darkbolts fishing for the failed save and hipsing away/throwing 5 tentacles spells on them/sending dracoliches and vampires/evo comboing them.

also who cares about concealment when mords will take your imp invis away...? even if you want it to matter, why keep on buffing spellswords? they all take blind fight, as i said, so...

80 > 0

edit: let me quote this and add that i didn't use TS or anything to hit that dex AC which, i mean, any mage can do if they really want to, specially when you are hasted and can reposition to wherever you want.

Lastly, against a dex-based melee:

Code: Select all

non-div:
15 (BAB) + 1 (dex mod) + 5 (GMW) + d20 (roll) vs. 10 (base) + 2 (SR helmet) + 1 (boots)* + 14 (dex mod) + 1 (MA)* + 4 (haste)* + 2 (armor skin) + 6 (tumble)*

div: 
15 (BAB) + 1 (dex mod) + 5 (GMW) + d20 (roll) vs. 10 (base) + 2 (SR helmet) + 1 (boots)* + 14 (dex mod) + 1 (MA)* + 4 (haste)* + 2 (armor skin) + 6 (tumble)* + divshield (9)*

*lost when flat-footed

which translates to:

Code: Select all

non-div: 21 + d20 vs. 40

div: 21 + d20 vs. 49

21 + d20 vs. 28 (flat-footed, for both non-div and div)

[Apokriphos]

Whenever there is a change to a class or race or ability that upsets the gitgood build meta there will always be complaints to weaken whatever was changed to maintain the old meta (1) along with requests for the improvement of the class that the poster mains (2). We just went through this with Lore.

These are both expected reactions, even more so considering that shadowmage has long been considered weak - addressing point one, and is diety restricted, so only a small minority of the server has mained one, or will. Which makes it easy to ask for nerfs on & demonize the class back to its old spot considering how few play it, and part of the reason it has been weak for so long, and likely will remain so.

Looking at your numbers, if you removed the Greater Magic Weapon Boost, which it seems Irongron is planning to consider, the touch attack is more likely to fail then not, just when looking at the non-div number. Just subtract 5 from all your attack rolls. All of a sudden it is much less likely to succeed. Additionally, with hips limited to every 12 seconds, perhaps a shadowmage might get one spell off on flatfoot, but it seems a massive waste considering if that is the spell chosen the target likely has improved invisibility, and the damage will be extremely low.

Also, Improved Invisibility is not on the breach list. Good luck to the mage who plans to reliably dispel it when a melee ward level to dispel is 30. https://nwn.fandom.com/wiki/Breach

You are correct in that Spellswords will use this spell mostly. In fact, I think they may dominate with it.

For a spell that should have been limited to Shadow Adepts, I doubt they will use it much.

[Complex]

this will be my last reply but all that 'gitgood build meta' is nonsense. the class i play needs no improvements (i play a mage and play with a lot of other mages), so i do not understand why we got such weird, overtuned spells.

shadowmage is not weak. you trade damage for hips (which is busted) and incredibly high dcs that you can easily work with given you can also easily fit ESF abj on any shadowmage build. giving them direct damage spell is only a buff to them and to many other classes that didn't need it because, as zavandar pointed out, all this new spells will mostly be casted by shadowmages only.

this spell was released with +15 darts and GMW boost and truestrike and hips all unchanged (nothing wrong with TS i'm just saying it exists and contributes), and i still do not believe that addressing those issues will change the fact that mages are overpowered and that we do not need to give them any more tools than they already have, specially not when the ones who will suffer it the most are the mundanes who already got their stuff tore up.

going back to ESF abj: it doesn't matter if imp inv is on the breach list or not, there are high chances it will get dispelled. and if that doesn't get dispelled, your death ward will, and if it is not that, your shield will, and if it is not that, bla bla bla. even if you do not want to agree on what i'm saying, i will agree with you in that 'It is just another tool in a toolbox to be used against specific foes who lack dex ac', but the question remains: did we need this? If you ask me, no, and it is shadowmages who benefit the most from it, curiously (when you start to add up all the new spells and how many of them give them a chance to do what they couldn't do before).

and all of this conversation is about darkbolt only, but that fire tentacles spell... is a bit alarming too. if i am not wrong, STR is taken into account for the grapple effect, so... in a way, one spell could easily deal with non dex people, and the other with non str people.

when stuff like this is added, it is important to take into account server balance as a whole. you can not just look at a path and say 'this is flawed!' and solve their only weakness by adding spells that will not only affect them but all other builds. even this change to shadowmages did not even take into account why it was that they lacked direct damage. that 'flaw' was clearly a key aspect of their design and existed for a reason, so why not address the path as a whole too? just my 2 cents.

[Apokriphos]

I feel like I should quote my post at the top of this page, but a quick look in #buildsnmechanics discord searching for shadowmage will tell you all you need to know about the class. Before these new spells happened, nothing of note was changed, and it was strongly considered a strict downgrade to regular mage, regardless of personal opinions on hips.

Compare it to the Meta Sorcerer/blackguard or paladin with obscene base saves, divine shield, no cast self hellball, and IGMS for days, its clear to see which is preferred by the majority of players in Arelith.

Shadow adept, the class shadow mage derived from https://dndtools.net/classes/players-gu ... dow-adept/ honestly should be the actual class.

It is certainly more comparable to Wild Mage & Spellsword paths in terms of features and complexity. Shadow adept can cast evocation spells as well, just at a lower caster level.

[magistrasa]

I think it's silly to argue that these spells don't aid Shadowmages more than any other class. I don't think we need to be silly to argue that the change is ultimately good and necessary for what is widely regarded as the Wizard-But-Worse class. Yes, the update has brought yet another plague upon the mundane slave class of Arelith in what historians will call the Arelithian Arcanapocalypse, but I would rather talk about why I like the update than pretend to sympathize with the plight of the peons. (That being said, yeah, the update was probably ill-timed due to the fact that mundanes are being left further and further in the dust, but it's here now so we gotta live with it.)

Everyone knows I'm biased when it comes to Shadowmage-related things so I wanted to stay out of this for the most part and let the smart people duke it out, but one thing keeps being said that I do not understand in the least:

"Shadowmages don't do damage."

I mean... sure, they don't get Maximized IDGAFMS spam like the rest of the arcanasphere, but I feel like it's missing the fact that SM is encouraged to take necromancy. And Epic Mummy Dust. And EDK if they really wanna lean into it. Between that and the other tricks up their wizardly sleeves that let them control the battlefield with CC, Shadowmages have always been able to just straight-up lay a hurting on people when they want to.

Y'all are acting like SM never had access to straight damage spells and that's the entire point of the class but, even if that was the case - even if this is the first time SM has ever been able to target someone's HP instead of their Fort - clearly the devs didn't like that, and don't agree that it's a good direction for the class. Updates like these don't come from a rogue agent. They're approved by the people at the top, and collaborated on along the production line. So maybe SM isn't supposed to be what you think it is.

That being said, I could always see an argument for why HiPS is worth too much in the trade-off for Evocation spells. If that's people's real issue with the class, maybe it should be pushed back to level 28 to encourage pure-classing. Then again, it's not really like SMs would be able to make real use of it at that point, since they wouldn't be able to dip for a stealth skill dump. So, I dunno.

For my next hot take, I put my irrelevant trash opinion in a quote box so you can more easily gloss over it if you decide you don't care:

As much as I hate to be That Guy who puts up crappy builds as if it's a valid argument against the meta, I feel like it's at least some valuable insight because I played Shadowmage the way it's (allegedly) "supposed" to be played. My main for a while didn't take necromancy, which meant she was mostly relegated to casting save-or-die spells - dipped for stealth, but in my combat gear I could only hit scores of around 40-50 - no necromancy, no conjuration, no damage, just memes. The only person I ever killed was a sub-epic rogue whose clarity potion had just worn off because he was busy killing someone else and didn't realize I'd stab him in the back with a Phantasmal Killer. That crappy K/D ratio wasn't for lack of trying either - I used every tool in my kit before I'd hit the Weird button. Two Mords, Mind Fogs, Cloudkills, Summon Shades, you name it. Even sometimes Lesser Breach wand spam if I could see anything on their character that looked remotely like a buff after I'd spent my Mords, and I'd even try and use Power Word: Death just to see if it'd stick (at least until it was brought to my attention how utterly awful that spell is, lol). It literally didn't matter. Even if I dropped their wards, their base saves due to gear, spellcraft, or sheer stats alone, was always enough to beat my DC of 42. That +2 is a joke of a bonus. Even against a WM who claimed to have 8 WIS, he somehow hit somewhere around +38 on his Will save. The "weak-minded melee" standard has to roll a 3 or lower for a Shadowmage to touch them, if they're played the way people are saying they're "supposed" to play. And that's not even a kill - that's just to put a fear on them. If a WM's Will save is hitting +38 due to gear, what in god's name is their Fort going to be?

A save-based combat strategy is doomed to fail on this server. And I think it's extremely understandable that the devs don't want to leave in a class that's doomed to fail. Furthermore, save-or-die spells aren't fun for anyone, and I think it was always going to be a flawed idea to create a class that relies on them so heavily, because all that does is encourage un-fun mechanics to remain prevalent.

In conclusion: The way I see it, all this really does is open up new options for people who don't want to take necromancy. Like me! Thanks devs!

Our promised payment is coming to you by mail, honorable admin team. Viva la Sharevolucion.

[BHR55]

...


does the mind immunity message there mean the will save goes off even if you don't hit any bolts? this was a pure monk with tons of dex, if i am not wrong, so the missed bolts are not surprising here.

...
are these spells going to get tweaked?

No if all touch attacks fail, there is no will save(I will double check to ensure that is the case). The Immune to mind effecting seems to display no matter what.
There is also only ever one save against the Daze no matter how many bolts hit you, there is no fishing for saves.

The tentacles will be adjusted along with other spells that needs fixing or adjusting. Maybe not just once either depending on how things go.

[Irongron]

Feedback on new content such as spells and classes is essential for the development of Arelith.

Time and time again it has been our players who have pointed potential flaws, and proposed viable alternatives in various updates over the years. Often we act upon that feedback, while sometimes as developers we choose to follow our own course, as is absolutely our right

This is all well and good, were it not for the fact that some players seem repeatedly incapable of presenting their (often valid) criticism without disparaging the developer in question, their decisions, their qualifications to make them, and their motivation for doing so.

To say I'm sick of it would be a gross understatement. It is in no way appropriate to adopt a condescending, often dismissive approach to fellow players, less still a volunteer developer who gives much of their free time to improve the game we all choose to play.

I know when people are invested in a game they can often grow frustrated with the decisions that guide it; but even so I find it very hard to empathize with behaviour that seems purposely intended to drive away staff.

BHR55 has made it abundantly clear he is listening, and will act upon feedback, I just wish some of it had been made in a better spirit. It is one of the great tragedies of Arelith that I often have to forewarn development staff that their chosen project will leave them open to public ire and insult.

As for the rate of such changes and adjustments, we all have to patient - including myself.

I will lock this now. Feel free to open a new (polite) feedback thread in a month or two if the state of these have not changed, or if anyone feels they continue to present a major issue.