Wizard vanila

[CptJonas]

Small question/feedback...

Over my time on arelith I played nearly all wizard paths and clasic wizard included...
And from looking at them....
SS gets imbue and its basicly completely different class...
Shadow mage loses Evocation, but gets bonus DC and hips...
Wild mage gets wild magic..
Wizard...he...I dunno..

SS is melee mage, Shadow is like specialize wizard....I am ok with both...
But wild mage is basicly just upgraded wizard....
Like whats point of picking vanila wizard? I dont see any?
From mechanical standpoint you dont get anything....and if you pick wildmage you would just gain stuff...

I am not saing nerf wild mage....I am personaly still pissed about wild mage changes and nerfs...
What I would love to see is reason why to pick wizard over it...
Maybe rework on school specialization? So it actualy does something other then giving you more spellslots in exchange for banned school (which is basicly just worse version of Shadowmage)?

What about to giving them maybe +3 (or even 4) bonus DC on picked school of magic, and maybe another inficast like you get on GSF, but on ESF, with maybe like 4th circle of spell...

That would be actualy reasonable tradeoff for loosing acces to school of magic, not instead going for normal wizard, or even for Wild which is even better...

And change like this would work only on vanila wizzard bcs paths are locked behind non specialized wizards..

What do ya think?


EDIT:
PS: Maybe...since we have more options since Haks....What about not giving them bonus DC (which isnt exactly usefull or interesting for all schools) but create completely separate window (just like if you multiclass different caster classes) with known spells from just specialized school with separate spellslots...which would efectivly give you more spellslots just for your specialized school...that would open up completely new interesting build ideas...like for example support mage which have more haste spells for his group then others..etc

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Personally id love to see more reasons to play non path wizards. But honestly on this forum you'll not find very many people ever wanting wizards to get anything new.


Wizards are considered the most powerful class on Arelith.

Honestly they are the, lorewise, class that has the most goodies and toys generally becuase of their position in DnD as the scholars and intellectuals of the world

[CptJonas]

Personally id love to see more reasons to play non path wizards. But honestly on this forum you'll not find very many people ever wanting wizards to get anything new.


Wizards are considered the most powerful class on Arelith.

Honestly they are the, lorewise, class that has the most goodies and toys generally becuase of their position in DnD as the scholars and intellectuals of the world

Well cant say I dont agree..

But base wizard isnt actualy so good...if you compare him to other casters or even to his own paths..


Btw...another idea...which would apply even to base wizard and which would be generaly more fine even for "those" guys...

Give us some cool feature for Pure wizard...like other classes (even his own path wild mage) have...some feature unlocked on 28 level...

[Aeralad]

Can wild mages become harper mage? I suppose sorcerers can.

[CptJonas]

Can wild mages become harper mage? I suppose sorcerers can.

Sure they can...there is no limit on multiclassing with wild mage..you only dont get totaly perfect surge...but nearly noone goes for that anyway...

[CptJonas]

One more idea...
As I mentioned that level 28 feature...
It could be even something so small as autosilent and autoquicken for all spells...
It would be more of QaL (bcs you would not need to cast haste every time you want buff yourself...
And nice from RP...you are such boss with magic that you can cast quickly, and without any words...

Or since its 28 level...so no dip...
It could be even something mechanicly usefull..

Like ESF concentration and spellcraft
And Espell pene...

Or if you want go realy powerfull road...give Pure wizard option to get epic warding (or give them it for free)

Well...there are so many options how to make vanila wizzard, pure wizard, or specialized wizard more interesting and not just lesser version of wild mage that I cant realy list them all...
Those were all what I could write down before I go to sleep...have funn

[Aeralad]

How useful is a level 27 or level 30 familiar? If it's not that useful maybe base wizard has a uniquely cool one.

And yeah, wizards are so generalist one can use that in adding features.

[Chosen Son]

Wizards, vanilla or not are incredibly powerful right now. If anything all of them should be toned down, instead of buffing them further.

[Aeralad]

That's the third time we've heard that maybe even the tenth hehe. Nah this is just a discussion and we can address that opinion.

Since people might say wizards are already too powerful, how about either extending their usage of power if it might be too quick to use, or adding buffing spells to the mix for non path wizards?
Artificers as arcane users are enchanters of weapons afaik, so non path wizards could use some artificer like buffing magic, either adding direct stat improvements to allies or by adding the capability to cast arcane spells. I remember reading in one of the Forgotten Realms books that Lady Alustriel simply gave another person a ring and told them the magic words, and then bam they could use meteor swarm. If you do something like that, you probably wouldn't want to be able to sell it so you don't screw up the wand system or whatever else.
That would also add capabilities to non wizard allies.

The extending the usage of their power, possibly with adding spells to their own items, or just more spells. That way it's like the addition to increasing power is minimized since it is what they can do already, and if you want you can say something like only level 6 or below spells whatever feels right.
I wanted to do something toward the feeling of extending endurance, but I think a free rest might be too OP, and there are so many cooldown abilities I wouldn't know where to start.

I could think up some more maybe.

[triaddraykin]

The attraction of the base wizard class, at least the reason I chose to play one, is that there's no major drawback to the mechanics and RP.

Spellsword is limited in versatility and you're playing a sparkly fighter.

Shadow mage limits a fair few spells, is incredibly difficult to RP without automatically having a ton of enemies, almost like a warlock.

Wild mage means you can't cast without potentially killing you and everyone in a 10-meter radius around you.

Wizard is flexibility. Five preset spellbooks you can tune to any situation and be ready to go. Stealthy? Load out invisiblity. Solo? Elementals and buffs. Expecting to have to take someone in nonlethally? Load up the stuns for your favored school, they all have one. So on. And there's no drawback to this flexibility beyond the normal melee squishiness.

[Wuthering]

Small question/feedback...

Over my time on arelith I played nearly all wizard paths and clasic wizard included...
And from looking at them....
SS gets imbue and its basicly completely different class...
Shadow mage loses Evocation, but gets bonus DC and hips...
Wild mage gets wild magic..
Wizard...he...I dunno..

SS is melee mage, Shadow is like specialize wizard....I am ok with both...
But wild mage is basicly just upgraded wizard....
Like whats point of picking vanila wizard? I dont see any?
From mechanical standpoint you dont get anything....and if you pick wildmage you would just gain stuff...

I am not saing nerf wild mage....I am personaly still pissed about wild mage changes and nerfs...
What I would love to see is reason why to pick wizard over it...

You're only looking at it in terms of mechanical power. Shadowmages must worship Shar which rules out good alignments and other deities. That narrows RP opportunities considerably. Wild Mages are more powerful than vanilla but they're also prone to summon a demon or volcano in town and get themselves in trouble. Their recklessness is tremendous fun on a suitable character but not appropriate for every concept. Many vanilla wizards don't go for the "wild" option because they're RPing a disciplined battle mage or guard or lawful scholar.. Or just because they want to trust their casting in tight situations like PVP.

I suspect more "vanilla" mages are still made and played than either of those options (spellsword's something else entirely) just because shadow and wild are pretty specific concepts.

But I am in favor of more wizard options.. The speciality school system could really do more for you than add 1 spell a day. I'd rather all wizards just got that 1 spell a day (generalists too) and speciality actually mean something with improved DCs and unique spells no one else gets and things like that.

[CptJonas]

Wild mage means you can't cast without potentially killing you and everyone in a 10-meter radius around you.

There is exactly just 1 stream which actualy can kill you or anyone..and thats balor summon...
All other are benefits or can be easily negated thro mind imunity and premonition/save...

I literaly used -chaos command when it was thing, to get basicly 100% surge chance, while buffing just to get all good stuff on myself...
like I even casted all my low tier spells and cantrips just to increse my chance...

That danger is just something for low levels or something which people think is dangerous bcs they didnt played it...
Reward is far greater then risk...

The attraction of the base wizard class, at least the reason I chose to play one, is that there's no major drawback to the mechanics and RP.

Yeah...I agree with small RP drawback...But its not exactly major one...

But there is actual mechanical drawback in playing base wizard and especialy pure base wizard...you are worse then your own path, and in terms of raw power even then some other spellcasters...

Wild Mages are more powerful than vanilla but they're also prone to summon a demon or volcano in town and get themselves in trouble. Their recklessness is tremendous fun on a suitable character but not appropriate for every concept. Many vanilla wizards don't go for the "wild" option because they're RPing a disciplined battle mage or guard or lawful scholar.. Or just because they want to trust their casting in tight situations like PVP.

I suspect more "vanilla" mages are still made and played than either of those options (spellsword's something else entirely) just because shadow and wild are pretty specific concepts.

Well...nicely said...I aggre with with basicly all off it..

Just thing that as said before....those drawback are way smaller then rewards, and it doesnt limit you so much...

I literaly played my Wild mage as born condition, which he wanted to gain control over to gain more power then other wizards..
I actualy even wrote book about it...That Chaos/wild magic and its mastery is true way to ultimate power...

[Xerah]

Really odd to say wizard isn’t good; I’ve played one of each to 30. It’s hard to take any feedback seriously when it starts with wizards being weak.

The only thing wizards really need is something that makes it a choice to go specialist or not.

[Aren]

Really odd to say wizard isn’t good; I’ve played one of each to 30. It’s hard to take any feedback seriously when it starts with wizards being weak.

The only thing wizards really need is something that makes it a choice to go specialist or not.

Xerah speaks truth.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Ill never say wizard isnt good, But a perk/ perks unavailable to Generalist wizards could offer a balance point to wizards while also adding some toys to play with.

I was toying with the idea that specialist wizards should infact have some form of perk that justifies the loss of an entire spell school, as Spellswords also do and they recieve a miriade of special perks for the loss of spellschools and summons.

If Specialist wizards were encouraged to take spell focuses in that particular school, and recieve a goodie that was focused around helping allies in certain instances then i think it could allow a balance. Part of the reason why Generalists are favored is that they get all of the goodies with none of the drawbacks.

For instance, as a hypothetical lets take an abjurationalist specialist.

Abjuration specialization - 1 additional spell slot per circle
Grab SF Abjuration - Enable friendly casting for the Abjurers Shield, LGMS immunity for ally
GSF Abjuration - Shield wall - A wall springs forth that is unable to be passed (about the size of Wall of fire, no damage but doesnt allow anyone to pass that barrier)
ESF Abjuration - Protective Field - A Collosal bubble is created, granting everyone inside the effects of the shield spell (both friendly and enemy, and all the protections of an abjurational focused shield, IGMS immunity) The effect dies after leaving the shield for 1 round, lasts 1 minute


Something like this, that a generalist wouldnt be able to get that would enable people to be on the look out for specific types of wizards that they may want in certain situations would make specialists have their own identity, atleast more than they do now, and split the wizard class into school focuses, Sort of like how necromancers are now, many people dont identify a necromancer as a wizard, but all other focuses of wizard are just considered; wizards.


Heres another one that might be fun

DIvination wizard - Additional spell slot per circle
SF Divination - Asteral projection - You split your mind and body and project a ghost of yourself ahead, the ghost cannot deal damage or be harmed, and may travel as far as your familiar can, you cannot speak in this form, your body remains where it lay for the durration
GSF Divination - You create a circle of power that increases the DC of all spells cast within it by 2, the circle increases the insight of all within it to divine the ability to see past defenses
ESF Divination - Increase of timer of scry by 1 minute


EDIT: I do want to clarify that these would only be available if a wizard decided to specialize in a school, the second people hear "More spells" Its often immediately declined becuase "Wizard OP"

This would require wizards to lose an entire spell school to enable additional spells upon grabbing the associated spell specialization spell focus... Spell.

[-XXX-]

How about giving non-pathed Wizards the ability to replenish their spellbook 1x/per rest?
Attrition capability appears to be one of the greatest advantages that Spellswords and Wild Mages hold over them right now.

[Apokriphos]

Going Specialist Wizard that prohibits use of Enchantment school is nearly without penalty currently.

Its a straight upgrade to a generalist wizard in most cases. I would like to see more utility spells in enchantment good for non dc mages before giving additional bonuses to specialist wizards.

A 28th level perk for pure wizard sounds interesting however. How about a RP only perk such as the ability to craft unique items that glow or look magical in some way. Maybe even with some small effect for flavor, like the ability to make magical seals that deal very limited damage and emote custom phrases according to the creator, such as a *Thall shall not pass!* or *Don't touch my stuff ye fiend!*

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

How about giving non-pathed Wizards the ability to replenish their spellbook 1x/per rest?
Attrition capability appears to be one of the greatest advantages that Spellswords and Wild Mages hold over them right now.

I like this enough to try filling it out into a complete idea.

Proposal for 28+/pure-classed unpathed wizards (specialists are not paths):

On a 30-60 RL Minute Cooldown (starts at 30 minutes and increases by 1 minute per character level), -Study their spellbook without resting with the drawback of being unable to perform other actions for one minute while they study their spells. Every six seconds restores one level of spells (or some percentage of that spell level), starting with your cantrips and working your way up to 9th level spells. Being ambushed (or being part of a party that enters combat while you're doing this) ends the -Study prematurely; you stop gaining spells (but retain the ones you've already regained) and the cooldown begins from there. Epic spells can only be refreshed by a proper rest. Normal rests continue to replenish spells as normal.

Since we normally squeeze a full night's worth of rest and spell replenishing into something like a 15 second rest, I don't think this is too OP- it would however, allow a wizard a little more sustain in areas that don't permit resting, and feasibly permit a party to RP around securing a safe spot for fresh buffs (particularly after a nasty wave of dispels).

Not that I think wizards need this, mind you, but if we're going to put the idea out there, I figure why not flesh it out into something beneficial and unique without being grossly OP or pvp influential?

[Shrouded Wanderer]

How about giving non-pathed Wizards the ability to replenish their spellbook 1x/per rest?
Attrition capability appears to be one of the greatest advantages that Spellswords and Wild Mages hold over them right now.

I like this enough to try filling it out into a complete idea.

Proposal for 28+/pure-classed unpathed wizards (specialists are not paths):

On a 30-60 RL Minute Cooldown (starts at 30 minutes and increases by 1 minute per character level), -Study their spellbook without resting with the drawback of being unable to perform other actions for one minute while they study their spells. Every six seconds restores one level of spells (or some percentage of that spell level), starting with your cantrips and working your way up to 9th level spells. Being ambushed (or being part of a party that enters combat while you're doing this) ends the -Study prematurely; you stop gaining spells (but retain the ones you've already regained) and the cooldown begins from there. Epic spells can only be refreshed by a proper rest. Normal rests continue to replenish spells as normal.

Since we normally squeeze a full night's worth of rest and spell replenishing into something like a 15 second rest, I don't think this is too OP- it would however, allow a wizard a little more sustain in areas that don't permit resting, and feasibly permit a party to RP around securing a safe spot for fresh buffs (particularly after a nasty wave of dispels).

Not that I think wizards need this, mind you, but if we're going to put the idea out there, I figure why not flesh it out into something beneficial and unique without being grossly OP or pvp influential?

I like this idea for a generalist wizard.

What about specialist non-paths? What would you think?

[CptJonas]

How about giving non-pathed Wizards the ability to replenish their spellbook 1x/per rest?
Attrition capability appears to be one of the greatest advantages that Spellswords and Wild Mages hold over them right now.

I like this enough to try filling it out into a complete idea.

Proposal for 28+/pure-classed unpathed wizards (specialists are not paths):

On a 30-60 RL Minute Cooldown (starts at 30 minutes and increases by 1 minute per character level), -Study their spellbook without resting with the drawback of being unable to perform other actions for one minute while they study their spells. Every six seconds restores one level of spells (or some percentage of that spell level), starting with your cantrips and working your way up to 9th level spells. Being ambushed (or being part of a party that enters combat while you're doing this) ends the -Study prematurely; you stop gaining spells (but retain the ones you've already regained) and the cooldown begins from there. Epic spells can only be refreshed by a proper rest. Normal rests continue to replenish spells as normal.

Since we normally squeeze a full night's worth of rest and spell replenishing into something like a 15 second rest, I don't think this is too OP- it would however, allow a wizard a little more sustain in areas that don't permit resting, and feasibly permit a party to RP around securing a safe spot for fresh buffs (particularly after a nasty wave of dispels).

Not that I think wizards need this, mind you, but if we're going to put the idea out there, I figure why not flesh it out into something beneficial and unique without being grossly OP or pvp influential?

Sounds like good idea to me overall....
What is missing is that 28+ cookie which stops you from going into dips....
It must be powerfull/usefull/RPcool enough to justify that you are basicly butchering your own character build....(those other skill options are hard to pass especialy on wizard which have insane number of skillpoints)...
Maybe using your idea but once you reach lvl 28 wizard you get big reduction in CD or maybe that restore takes as much time as usual rest...


Other option for 28+ wizard which came up in my mind is...
they can get same feature as what Harpers...
Eschew Material feat: Does not need to use Spell Components
Its not OP...more like QaL....and you still will be better of with just playing wizard with harper (bonus feats, free epic focuses, skill options)

Or...or...I dunno....
I am allways looking on something which is just RP/QaL bonus which would be good enough to pass on skill dip class...
Any ideas guys?

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I like this idea for a generalist wizard.

What about specialist non-paths? What would you think?

No reason it couldn't apply to generalists and specialists alike- both are vanilla and non-pathed. I'd also be fine with thematic perks/drawbacks for each actual specialization, but I'd rather start broader and get all "Pure, unpathed wizards" some kind of capstone, which they currently lack.

Again- not that I'm saying they need it, but if it can be tastefully done I certainly wouldn't complain, and it does seem to be the main thrust of this particular thread.

What is missing is that 28+ cookie which stops you from going into dips....

Proposal for 28+/pure-classed unpathed wizards (specialists are not paths):

Nah, that's the reason I wrote it the way I did- a pure (unpathed) wizard would get the bonus as long as they stay pure, including 28+. If they dip at any point, they lose it forever. You -could- just make it 28+, but that's a fairly sharp QoL change in the perk that might make it more easily overlooked for a dip. As a personal thought, I imagine most capstones that don't scale some kind of enhancement bonus to weapons or ability scores could be implemented in this way to make them more attractive without making them exploitable, but don't hold me at gunpoint for that statement, because I haven't gone over the wiki before making it to look at all the 28+ capstones that don't involve one of those two things (if there even are any.)

[garrbear758]

I'd be good with something like that for all casters if it completely replaced resting for spells. Casters as it is can easily game their rest meter / alcoholism to rest 2 or 3 times in one dungeon, allowing them to consistently use their strongest spells. The current rest system gives them the same sustain as a mundane without having any of the drawbacks of being a mundane.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I'd be good with something like that for all casters if it completely replaced resting for spells. Casters as it is can easily game their rest meter / alcoholism to rest 2 or 3 times in one dungeon, allowing them to consistently use their strongest spells. The current rest system gives them the same sustain as a mundane without having any of the drawbacks of being a mundane.

I'd be okay with this- I've played on a PW where a system like this was used but instead there was just an enforced timer between rests that was a function of your character level - the mid-to-epic-level dungeons there were pretty heavy on spawns, I think it capped out somewhere around 15-20 minutes at level 25. (I could always track down one of the devs and check). This limited both mundanes from using rest all the time to save on healing items/party healing spells while still allowing them to occasionally do it, and also casters from refilling their spellbooks for every combat.

Thirty minutes to an hour is way too long of a drawback for such a system, though. It's one thing as a perk- it's rather harsh given some of the spawn rates on the server as a full-blown requirement, however. 15-20 minutes by level 30 seems like some sort of ideal to shoot for; IIRC, the place where this was done didn't start inflicting rest timers in excess of 10 minutes until after level 10.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be a little more thematic to the theme of one spell allotment per IC day, but in the vein of the idea of a wizard's sustainability (and every other resting caster, too), which is what was being discussed, I think this would go into the realm of almost making them unsustainable in a decent number of mid-to-epic runs - a case of from one extreme to the other, as it were.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

I guess I think plenty of people play generalists, I'm a big fan if changinf the current rest system, as honestly I hate that I have to chug spirits every day to rest.

Seems to me there isnt enough support for specialist wizards.

[Exordius]

I always play specialists, there is no logical reason not to. Just find a school you don't plan on using and give it up. An extra spell-slot each level is no joke by level 30 and will pay off greatly.