Spellsword Changes

[Zavandar]

Spellsword
----------------

- Spellswords are no longer able to use death armor, elemental shield, or mestil's acid sheath.
- Spellsword cold imbue no longer reduces your target's attacks per round.
- Halved the bonus damage and healing from spellsword negative imbue.


Alrighty. Let's number these off.

1. This one probably makes the least sense, and I'm pretty sure Cordor's recent tournament inspired it. Damage shields are removed with a breach (and damage shields are at the top of the breach list now), so I don't see the point. They are not OP, as some people may have been lead to believe from the tournament, because a wand of lesser breach or a stockpile of scrolls has many more charges than can be cast. Not having the proper tools to remove it (breach wand, scroll, mords gems, or prepped spells) is the fault of the opponent, not the spellsword. I also don't get why it's removed from just spellswords. What about spellswords makes it particularly dangerous?

2. I agree that cold imbue needs a nerf, but I don't think this is the way to do it. Just make freedom remove it (because right now it doesn't). I have reported this before.

3. This is mostly a PvE nerf. Neg imbue isn't the best in PvP, and with its damage halved, negative defensive essences will just see it removed from PvP entirely.

[Zaphiel]

Making FOM remove the cold imbue effects doesn't makes any sense since spellsword can imbue their weapon for on-hit breach. This will lead to continiously using FOM wands or chugging potions just because of clearing effect.

For removing damage shield, enemy needs to waste an entire round while a hasted spellsword can instantly cast it again then continue damaging enemy. Considering how they are strong, this is quite good nerf.

[Kuma]

Making FOM remove the cold imbue effects doesn't makes any sense since spellsword can imbue their weapon for on-hit breach.

For removing damage shield, enemy needs to waste an entire round while a hasted spellsword can instantly cast it again then continue damaging enemy. Considering how they are strong, this is quite good nerf.

remember that spellswords are wizard base, not sorcerer. you're going to be able to out-breach their damage shields if you're properly prepared.

[ReverentBlade]

Lesser breach wands remove damage shields pretty much without fail, and are cheap and plentiful. This hurts spellswords in PvE much more than it does PvP, most characters are coached in how to use wands to strips damage shields as their very first lesson in the arena. It dumbs down the interplay without actually accomplishing anything. Questionable direction.

[Imperatrix]

When fighting a spellsword their damage shield was never the thing I was worried about. Even my barb/ftr/wm can breach. It's a weird change.

I didn't like that cold imbue reduced APR but introducing a counter would have been alright too.

The negative imbue change just seems unnecessary.

Addendum:

I'd have downtuned the debuff imbues across the board something like this:

Acid -1/-2/-3 AB for 2/3/4 rounds

Cold -1 APR for 2/3/4 rounds with speed reduction of 10%/20%/30% and making freedom counter the APR reduction (if this isn't possible then removing it entirely is the right call imo)

Fire -1/-2/-3 AC for 2/3/4 rounds.

I think these nerfs would keep imbues functional and effective without being too much. There's no reason the AB/AC debuffs should last 10 rounds as they currently do.

[Zavandar]

Making FOM remove the cold imbue effects doesn't makes any sense since spellsword can imbue their weapon for on-hit breach. This will lead to continiously using FOM wands or chugging potions just because of clearing effect.

For removing damage shield, enemy needs to waste an entire round while a hasted spellsword can instantly cast it again then continue damaging enemy. Considering how they are strong, this is quite good nerf.

Why do you think more people don't imbue magic/cold already? Because the breach is a will save and the cold is a fort save, and very few proper and geared builds are low in both. It also means they're not using another imbue, like fire or acid.

[ReverentBlade]

It feel arbitrary to me. What's sticking in my craw as much as the bizarre mechanical reason is the RP/lore of it. These spells pretty much epitomize the idea of "melee wizard combat". Losing them overnight is just...weird. If this isn't the magic you try to master as a spellblade, what is?

Please reconsider if this is really the thematic way you want to siphon power out of the class. I'm confident there are less clunky ways to accomplish your goal.

I humbly propose that damage shields do a token amount of damage to the user/caster if they try to "reach through" them with a melee attack. The damage must be small, and it must be manageable with your own elemental protections. (Protection from Elements, Energy Buffer, ect.). This discourages spell blades from using them hastily, and leaves normal casters that don't use weapons more or less unbothered.

Also consider that this means spellblades can't use Fire Shield against the many sources of fire damage in Red Dragon Isle/Plane of Fire/Burning Shore. A significant increase in difficulty and reduction of a spellcaster's toolkit I'm not sure was intended.

[Straxus]

I don't use any shield, or shield like effect with mine. I imbue with lightening, because the lightening will hit multiple targets afterwards... comes in handy when you are alone 90% of the time.

Elemental shield and the like I use more for my area of effect spells, so that they don't hurt me.

Again, I refused to use necromancy at all, simply because IC I consider it an evil path. Draining ones power and feeding of it is in itself an evil act. In my opinion... do I think it shouldn't be allowed... of course not... mages can look past Alignment restraints when it comes to knowledge and know how... so in that effect, there is nothing evil about it. Only my characters reasoning is why I choose necro as my barred school.

[Good Character]

Changes seem to be a case of catering to players who aren't familiar with PvP and put too much emphasis on perceived numbers. However, the cold imbue change does make sense. It's significant damage taken away that has no counter beyond scaling your fort save. The negative imbue's current purpose is a QoL situation while leveling.

If negative imbue is too threatening, make it do Xd4/3 or Xd4/4 damage and heal that much. Introduce a counter for the cold imbue like Zavandar suggested. The removal of shields needs to be reversed since they have a significant and accessible counter.

[The1Kobra]

Negative imbue isn't great for PvP, I'll agree there. However, it was /way/ too powerful for PvE.
I've played two spellswords, one dex based monk dual wielder, another STR based one. My former barred necro and didn't have access to it, but for the other, it made most PvE content mind numbingly easy. He was able to solo just about anything even with a middling AC, much less the possible 63+ that my other one can hit. They could pretty much go through anything and never need healing, because the neg imbue would juice them right back up. That's not balanced at all, especially given what non-caster classes have to go through. Neg imbue needed a nerf, especially given most PvE content doesn't resist it, even undead, which you think ought to.

For the cold imbue, losing an attack hurts, though when they're throwing multiple APR, they generally lose only the lowest AB one, so it's not /that/ big of a deal. The speed isn't much in most PvE content, though for PvP it's really powerful. Still is, because it doesn't let a target run away as easily.

For the damage shields,
I'm not sure this nerf should have been just a spellsword thing? Regular mages can use the damage shields just fine too. I know they're not on the frontline but they can have much the same defenses a spellsword does. In fact I think regular magi get more out of it anyways than spellswords do because spellswords have more incentive to go for a high AC. And there are plenty of counters. Mind, non-mages and non-wand users will have trouble, but they always do. If the damage shields needed to be nerfed, then it should probably not be just a spellsword based nerf.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

So now any melee class with a rogue dip and Lore is a better spellcaster than a spellsword. They can summon, cast spells from any school of magic, use damage shields, while also potentially having barb rage for 800+ HP, or be dishing out WM crits for 200+ damage a hit, etc. When fighters and barbarians are better spellcasters than spellswords, something is majorly wrong.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I think the best way to have fixed this class (and a few other outliers that are just one great pvper from pushing to scary levels away from nerf consideration) is to somehow make monk AB progression only count If the majority of your levels are monk.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

I think the best way to have fixed this class (and a few other outliers that are just one great pvper from pushing to scary levels away from nerf consideration) is to somehow make monk AB progression only count If the majority of your levels are monk.

Please don't give them anymore ideas. Negative imbues and damage shields were the metaphorical butter on my build's toast. Taking away monk AB too would basically throw out the bread too and force me to either quit playing or make a new character.

[Zaphiel]

I think the best way to have fixed this class (and a few other outliers that are just one great pvper from pushing to scary levels away from nerf consideration) is to somehow make monk AB progression only count If the majority of your levels are monk.

Please don't give them anymore ideas. Negative imbues and damage shields were the metaphorical butter on my build's toast. Taking away monk AB too would basically throw out the bread too and force me to either quit playing or make a new character.

It is a fact that monk UBAB must be nerfed on Spellsword. Especially when timestop and truestrike combo exist. I am not even telling Spellmonk can reach to 11APR.

[Xerah]

Please note this is an experimental path, and changes may be done at any time.

This has always been the case with this class and unlikely to change any time in the near future.

Also, the discussion on these changes go back to last month, so it wasn’t inspired by anything recently.

[AstralUniverse]

I dont see the problem with damage shields when they are on top of the breach list. Could also make it so damage shields last round/2lvls (half duration) for spellswords, rather than outright removing them. It seems a bit of an overreaction.

Cold imbue was never my preferred imbue neither for pvp or for pve. It would be good for pvp if not everybody had sky rocket fort save. I think, if we put the lack of reliability aside, 50% movement speed reduction is a huge debuff that can easily win you a fight because you're faster than your opponent on a class that wants to cast AND charge for melee with truestrike. The APR reduction removal is fine.

Tested on my quarterstaff spellsword post-nerf just earlier. Negative imbue is still efficient and go-to in most pve.

[Zaphiel]

And honestly, why a 3/4 ab progression class have 49ab on one-handed weapon? Am I only one who finds it silly?

[Sockss]

Please note this is an experimental path, and changes may be done at any time.

This has always been the case with this class and unlikely to change any time in the near future.

Also, the discussion on these changes go back to last month, so it wasn’t inspired by anything recently.

I don't think anyone is questioning changes happening, in of themselves.

Just these changes in particular.

I think, mostly people are trying to find out the why to these changes.

Were damage shields considered too strong on spellswords? Why? Is this change worth potential player confusion?
Were the imbues considered too strong? Why?

Incidentally. They don't really bother me at all; since a spellsword would rarely ever bother with damage shields, the cold imbue is good still due to the slow enabling some stickiness in combat and the negative change is a PvE thing. I understand the confusion as to why these things were changed, though.

[AstralUniverse]

And honestly, why a 3/4 ab progression class have 49ab on one-handed weapon? Am I only one who finds it silly?

21 bab if fighter dip
13 dex or str mod
4 from feats
3 on weapon
4 EMA

45. What am I missing?

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Will Spellswords be offered a rebuild like Monks were? Because this class has been nerfed way harder and it was nowhere near as OP as Monks were for a good six months. I don't recall any Spellswords ignoring settlement laws because they were literally unkillable. Damage shields and healing 8-10 hp per round from negative imbues might have been good for lower level PVE but my old WM character easily hacked a very skilled player's Spellsword to death through his acid sheath in a couple of rounds. And my sorcerer's acid sheath did not save her from one of those aforementioned Lawful Monks who decided to ignore laws and randomly murder her then face no consequences because the guards from every settlement were too scared to PVP a monk.

[Zaphiel]

And honestly, why a 3/4 ab progression class have 49ab on one-handed weapon? Am I only one who finds it silly?

21 bab if fighter dip
13 dex or str mod
4 from feats
3 on weapon
4 EMA

45. What am I missing?

That is the where weirdness starts.

My AB calculation: 21 base + 13 str mod + 1 epic prow.+ 4 weapon ench(keen edge) + 1 focus + 2 epic focus + 4 EMA = 46 AB

This screenshot from 21 Spellsword / 3 BG / 6 Divine Champion WITHOUT divine wrath up:


I have no idea where that +3 AB comes from.

[AstralUniverse]

you're probably getting +2 ab from being on 50% concealment attacking someone without blindfight. Not sure where the last point is from. Yeah. Its nothing special.

[Zaphiel]

you're probably getting +2 ab from being on 50% concealment attacking someone without blindfight. Not sure where the last point is from. Yeah. Its nothing special.

Tested on a PC with blindfight. It is still 49AB.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

I can deal with only healing 6-8 hp per round instead of 8-10 from negative imbues. That's fine, I might have to use a band-aid sometimes, whatever. But no damage shields, on THE front-line melee spellcaster class? I'm pretty sure spellswords need damage shields more than the wizard standing in the back and lore-wise would definitely invest time in learning those spells. Also the fact existing characters that used these spells daily for years suddenly don't know them anymore is extremely lame for role play.

[AstralUniverse]

I dont know man.

But this...

And honestly, why a 3/4 ab progression class have 49ab on one-handed weapon? Am I only one who finds it silly?

probably shouldnt be phrased like that because it sounds as if you're suggesting 49 ab is the common ab mark for spellswords while you cannot even explain how your log shows 49. Eitherway, with the broken imbue (that basically made me forget what healing kits all the way to epics) nerfed, I think we're good. The damage shields nerf was overkill.


Also, why would rebuilds be offered when the class didnt lose/receive any free feats? No one's build has changed and probably no one's RP, unless someone was very keen on RPing a damage shields expert on a spellsword.