Topic of Dipping Classes

[Dijhin]

Hello all,

I have had this thought on my mind for awhile and am curious as to the general consensus of the community.

I’m starting to get tired of seeing specific classes be dipped for an overwhelming surge in power for many builds even if it makes 0 RP sense or the character has no history or real “reason” non-mechanically to be one. There are 2 types of classes that I feel are the sorest thumbs:

Paladin/Blackguard - Take only the base 3 levels and you’re suddenly a CHA character with high saves across the board. You’ve selected Lawful Good but your only reasoning is so you can pick this class and get it’s major benefit; Even if you have no intention of RPing an extremely good-aligned character or vice-versa for Blackguard.

Monk - Take only the base 3 levels and you get a surge in AC from WIS and Flurriable weapons (Which is a huge power boost in itself) and a massive increase in attacks per round when using a monk UBAB weapon. I’m looking at you quarterstaff spellswords with a 3 dip in monk.

A group of friends and I had the thought of making it where these classes require you to have the majority of levels in them to gain these powerful bonuses. A Paladin should be receiving its save bonus because it’s granted divine favor by it’s patron for its large time of worship, not because it went to communion for a short stint. A monk should be able to masterfully throw out a ton of attacks at once because of its devotion to its training that took a long time to master, not because it attended a couple Kung-fu classes. Large mechanical rewards such as these should be for devoting your character to these classes rather than simply dipping your pinky in them and getting the major benefit of playing one.

I understand not everything comes down to just RP and a large part of enjoyment comes from game mechanics but I thought I’d atleast put my feedback out there on something that seems extremely common and to see the communities outlook on this.

[AstralUniverse]

I'm in favor of dipping these classes because like any other dipping, they open up building versatility and come with sacrifices both mechanically and in RP.

I will not comment much on monks or BG, except that people should RP their alignment. There's no problem with dipping those. There can be MANY justifications to take 3 lvls from these classes.

Paladin is a bit more tricky because of the RP. Paladin comes with a very strict oath too. I've personally played a fighter with paladin dip because at the time it seemed more flexible and fun than caster paladin but I've RPed A paladin. Not some religious knight. Not a champion. Not some guy who made a weird paladin oath to some unknown order that doesnt limit their lifestyle. A 100% paladin... that just isnt giftet with casting and is more combat trained but a... PALADIN. And if you RP your classes, there's no reason why you shouldnt multiclass for 3 lvls, including these three 'problematic' classes you mention. That's my two cents.

I also have a quarterstaff spellsword ftr monk. Yeah it's probably slightly stronger than other spwllsword builds right now.. but really not by much and gearing a bitch. And there's really no issue justifying that RP (Shining Hand comes to mind).

[Kuma]

i swear we had a discussion on this in the discord chat literally last night

[Ork]

I don't mean to be rude but search the forums on this topic. We have it pop up like every other month.

[facesmash]

I don't mean to be rude but search the forums on this topic. We have it pop up like every other month.

If it pops up so much, doesn't that indicate somethings off? I get a lot of people who do dip into these classes often are going to raise that flag and are ready to march to war to defend their builds, but...Far too often do I see a sorc with those sweet pld/bg levels with 0 RP of any type to show their dedication to their apparent faith. Just seems cheesy, and while I understand the argument of "it adds diversity and customization among builds"....I mean does it really? When probably a higher % of players are using these dip mechanics rather than not. I think if you take away the handicap of the dip a lot more diverse things will start to pop up when players are forced to actually think outside the box when it comes to a build.

Also not everyone uses the mass discord *is one of said people*

Just my two cents.

[Drowboy]

No, it just indicates people like to dredge up the same low hanging fruit every two weeks.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

This is an age-old problem.

Dungeons and Dragons is designed around multiclassling. Or at least, it's always broken by it. Play any variation from 3.0 onwards and a mechanical dip is almost always there.

Until you design a system from the ground up to not be reliant on mutliclassing, it's always going to be there. Which means, yeah, unfortunately you're going to have a sorcpaladin that is a giggling buffoon and doesn't understand the holy virtues of the Lord God Tyr.

Unavoidable.

This always seems to be a target against roleplaying than mechanical power, anyways. To which I can - don't worry about other people so much. It's not a competition. Nothing on this server really is. Just be happy they're having fun.

[Hunter548]

I don't mean to be rude but search the forums on this topic. We have it pop up like every other month.

If it pops up so much, doesn't that indicate somethings off? I get a lot of people who do dip into these classes often are going to raise that flag and are ready to march to war to defend their builds, but...Far too often do I see a sorc with those sweet pld/bg levels with 0 RP of any type to show their dedication to their apparent faith. Just seems cheesy, and while I understand the argument of "it adds diversity and customization among builds"....I mean does it really? When probably a higher % of players are using these dip mechanics rather than not. I think if you take away the handicap of the dip a lot more diverse things will start to pop up when players are forced to actually think outside the box when it comes to a build.

Also not everyone uses the mass discord *is one of said people*

Just my two cents.

Feel free to report people not roleplaying their dips if it really bothers you that much. The fact that it comes up that often doesn't mean anything other than some people aren't able to let it go, to my mind - same as our every-six-months thread about why detect evil should be way stronger.

Sorc/paladin or Sorc/BG always gets brought up in these conversations, on that note; yet I couldn't tell you the last time I saw one. Why's it stick in the craw so much? Is the combination roleplayed especially poorly, or something?

[Kalopsia]

One of Arelith's Golden Rules is "You are expected to roleplay your character sheet to the best of your abilities."

Something to keep in mind here: Unlike in PnP, class levels don't describe your character's past on this server. Much rather, they define the status quo. If a paladin does not act like a paladin, they are not supposed to have paladin levels and will get a stern reminder or even a delevel as soon as a DM notices.

TL;DR: Whether you have 3 or 30 Paladin levels, your character is a Paladin and it's expected for them to be roleplayed as such.
All that invalidating such class dips would do is limit build versatility.

[Dr. B]

Isn't this why the 3 level minimum rule exists? Suppose it were raised to 5 levels? 10? 15? People would just make threads complaining about characters taking the minimum required levels, whatever that number is.

Which means, yeah, unfortunately you're going to have a sorcpaladin that is a giggling buffoon and doesn't understand the holy virtues of the Lord God Tyr.

Unavoidable.

This always seems to be a target against roleplaying than mechanical power, anyways. To which I can - don't worry about other people so much. It's not a competition. Nothing on this server really is. Just be happy they're having fun.

On the flip side, I do not see such a situation as unavoidable, nor am I happy that person is having fun: report them.

[facesmash]

Dont get me wrong, I'm not trying to be here and say "No multi-classing, burn the heretics!"

I just think that if you take the things people usually take that 3 level dip for...

IE -- PLD/blackguard 3 level dip is only for the saving throw boost; monk for the flurry, ac(though this has been mostly seen too), being able to get 1 million attacks with a qstaff...

If we pushed these things later into the class, then yes I think it would make people have to rethink how they build their characters and not just build around a "what can I 3 level dip into at the end, to get my ultimate power". Honestly I'm guilty of this myself, the choice to do so is just so clear that you're honestly crippling yourself by NOT doing it, which in my opinion is the source of the problem.

As a side note, I think some of the new classes do this wonderfully, especially with the swashbuckler. I think the swash could be buffed in some ways, but I like the parts where it scales based on how much of the class you take. Thats how most classes should work imo. The farther you progress in a specific class, the better that class should get. I get its the base design that is flawed, paladins and the like shouldnt get their most powerful ability at lv. 1 for example.

[Archnon]

As a side note, I think some of the new classes do this wonderfully, especially with the swashbuckler. I think the swash could be buffed in some ways, but I like the parts where it scales based on how much of the class you take. Thats how most classes should work imo. The farther you progress in a specific class, the better that class should get. I get its the base design that is flawed, paladins and the like shouldnt get their most powerful ability at lv. 1 for example.

This is the clear solution to limiting the 3 level power dip. For monk AC and Pal/BG saves, you get 1 point per 2 or 3 class levels invested. It also happens to be the solution to the insane save culture and the predominance of Charisma as a stat in the current meme. However, I don't think the dev's are interested. They have weighed the options, and likely think this would limit build variety. It would also cause a massive outcry from the 3 level dip players all over the server and likely upend the entire build zeitgeist that we have going on now. This would probably need to be accompanied with massive rebuilds again and a lot of griping to boot. They played this game when they nerfed UMD and opened scrolls to lore, thereby reducing the necessity of the Rogue/Bard dip that dominated at the time. It resulted in a lot of angry posting on this forum.

Are power dips a thing... yes.
Do I also love to complain about them ... yes
Are they worth the cost in terms of benefiting build diversity .... that is for the admin to decide but in the end, they know the direction of the server better than we do.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Could always do what neverwinter nights 2 did and limit the saved skill points to a max of 5. That would eliminate dipping for everything but maybe the divine save classes

[TimeAdept]

It would also completely destroy the viability of many builds and make the game much more difficult for people who aren't already mechanically savvy.

[Aeralad]

Not to mention the lack of tumble for some melee classes and the lack of discipline for some casters. Umd dip etc.
Or in other words, was the expected endgame AC including tumble or not? What about UMD/lore?

[Aeralad]

I think this is going to touch on some design aspects that might've been inherited from NWN and Dnd 3.5.
Try to be respectful of others opinions or remarks because it could simply boil down to one reasonable view vs another, since it might touch on design concepts.
But it's basically like the value of multi classing for statistical rewards or benefits itself is up in the air. I remember hearing - though just hearing - that 3e was kind of made to be that way so if people bought the books and read through other classes they'd have a sort of mechanical advantage or whatever. I don't know about that though.
But you know, on one hand this, on the other hand another. Do we want people to go through the game going, oh just give me the cookie cutter 30 fighter, or do we want people to look at classes and combos?
Why or why not? What values do the existence of this as a player choice bring? Etc etc.
I think there might be something like "I actually want a gnome swashbuckler wizard combo as my class build and character, and don't care whether it's stats or good etc. People might want to have that option.

Although since it's a major design thing with a bunch of ramifications, it probably will have to be put in the 6+ month waiting line.

[Ork]

One of the most important rules of this server is roleplay. It is disingenuous and insulting that some people find players that dip to be sub-roleplayers. But, I feel like what needs to have been said about this argument has already been said. The truth is that the mechanically savvy players will never be disadvantaged. Even the lore change had no effect on these individuals, and they've adapted to the new normal of mechanics.

[DangerDolphin]

I really think some of these front-loaded class combos are toxic because they prevent the main class getting buffs.

For instance, Sorcadin and Sorcguard would be OP if we buffed sorcerers at all right now, which is a shame because I think they could use some more known spells and skills, given that Arelith has added more spells to the game and given how heal/discipline etc are pretty much mandatory.

This applies to any CHA based class, because CHA is a very weak stat and they kind of 'need' the dip to stay viable. Many Warlocks are BGs, and you will soon see a metric ton of Favoured Soul Pally/BGs on the server too.

This is a shame because it pigeon-holes these classes into LG or Evil alignments and locks out other interesting multiclass options from being more viable.

Lots of people are pointing out this topic comes up time and again, but the solution is obvious. Remove the front-loading of benefits from BG/Pally and spread them out over levels. From there we can move on and help the now weakened CHA based classes in fun and interesting ways that make sense for their class.

[Entre Laberintos]

I think there should be more attractive capstone abilities at epic levels. Something that makes losing those delicious saves and ac more acceptable. It´s true that making "combos" can be fun, but let´s face it, those combos seem to have always the same core abilities supporting them.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

I think the devs could do something for many classes like they did with Druid, giving characters special bonuses/abilities only after investing 28 levels in the class. That would reward people who pure class and still let people dip. Also just because someone dips for mechanical benefits does not make them a bad role player. Dipping in Paladin, Monk, or Rogue gives you an opportunity to also role play as those classes. A player could only invest 3 levels in Paladin and still role play great as a Paladin. Same with Monk.

[Hunter548]

I really think some of these front-loaded class combos are toxic because they prevent the main class getting buffs.

For instance, Sorcadin and Sorcguard would be OP if we buffed sorcerers at all right now, which is a shame because I think they could use some more known spells and skills, given that Arelith has added more spells to the game and given how heal/discipline etc are pretty much mandatory.

This applies to any CHA based class, because CHA is a very weak stat and they kind of 'need' the dip to stay viable. Many Warlocks are BGs, and you will soon see a metric ton of Favoured Soul Pally/BGs on the server too.

This is a shame because it pigeon-holes these classes into LG or Evil alignments and locks out other interesting multiclass options from being more viable.

Lots of people are pointing out this topic comes up time and again, but the solution is obvious. Remove the front-loading of benefits from BG/Pally and spread them out over levels. From there we can move on and help the now weakened CHA based classes in fun and interesting ways that make sense for their class.

Sorcerers period would be OP if sorcerers were buffed right now. Sorcerers are vastly better than wizards.

[DangerDolphin]

Sorcerers period would be OP if sorcerers were buffed right now. Sorcerers are vastly better than wizards.

Can you explain? Wizards have a huge number of skillpoints to play with, and versatility of switching spellbooks is very nice too. Not to mention all the bonus metamagic feats and scribe scroll.

Edit: fixed quote formatting

[Ork]

There's a lot of prevalent misunderstandings that always seem to come up in these discussions, but it is disheartening that despite trying to inform people about why they are misunderstandings, they're still cited almost constantly.

This isn't the first time sorc vs. wizard has come up. If you want to learn more there are well argued threads on why sorc is probably one of the most powerful classes at the moment.

[Hunter548]

Sorcerers period would be OP if sorcerers were buffed right now. Sorcerers are vastly better than wizards.

Can you explain? Wizards have a huge number of skillpoints to play with, and versatility of switching spellbooks is very nice too. Not to mention all the bonus metamagic feats and scribe scroll.

Edit: fixed quote formatting

Skillpoints are a valid point, and they let wizards fill more/different roles than sorcerers (IE, maxing appraise and search to be a lootbot in addition to a party's mage) but these usually don't let you kill things more effectively (edit: Also, sorcerers can almost always fit the basics). Swapping spellbooks is valuable sometimes, but not all the time and it's often overrated; 30 IGMS will work for most situations if need be. Wizard has niches it's good for (pure wild mage, shadow mage, pale master) and vanilla wizard can still be perfectly functional, but sorcerer is still really strong. Wizards are more versatile in terms of picking up -commands and other faction-support areas but sorcerers aren't hugely far behind (Most wizards will take 3-4 ESFs. Most sorcerers will take 2-3) and a metaphorical hammer works really well for a lot of situations.


(Nerfing IGMS doesn't really change this dichotomy, by the by. There's other direct damage spells that can serve the same roll of letting sorcerers be hammers and succeed, and IGMS isn't even optimal 100% of the time as is, right now. Nerf IGMS, and it just becomes "10 Metoer Swarms/Icebergs, 10 Horrid Wiltings, 10 Maximized Ice Storms and 10 Shadow Evocation/Darkbolts will work for most situations if need be".)

[Aeralad]

Start another thread about sorcerers vs wizards please.

Sorcerers are just double focused wizards with a smaller spell book. Because of this, if people can rely on a smaller spell book, sorcerers are better in that situation. The double focus can serve to make them excel in a specific situation, but suffer in others.
If it is to the advantage of people to have a variety in their spell book, Wizards are the de facto rulers because their spell book is varied. I can point you to a server where this is irrefutable, and the only people who play sorcerers do it because they hate having to rebook or simply like not memorizing spells.

But yeah, seems multiclassing allows for variety, but it's also weird because it decreases the variety because one build becomes the best. It's also weird when you get some recognition or acceptance of this base class being overridden in it's purpose by another class.
This is what I think is going on with the claims of "oh you aren't rping that"
Yes they are, because the best cleric on the server is a multi class cleric shaman or whatever the meta is.

I'm actually wondering if that's true about the Multiclassing with regards to the rule? Is that on the wiki? Something about the sheet, but if there isn't a link or thing on the wiki with regards to multi classing, yeah I'd expect it to crop up every so often.