Topic of Dipping Classes

[Aeralad]

In case anybody missed it, this is a rule question. If I go 27 fighter 3 bard or 3 rogue, am I expected to roleplay the rogue/bard? If I don't, am I liable to be addressed or deleveled by a Dm?

[Kenji]

In case anybody missed it, this is a rule question. If I go 27 fighter 3 bard or 3 rogue, am I expected to roleplay the rogue/bard? If I don't, am I liable to be addressed or deleveled by a Dm?

Rogue and bard have a broader and more relaxed approach to their RP. Taking rogue levels doesn't necessarily mean becoming a thief, and taking bard levels doesn't necessarily mean becoming a minstrel or a performer (but they still can be, just doesn't mean they are). The dip classes can mean multitudes of things:
1. The characters have learned skills from their travels such as dabbling in the trades (appraise), knowing how to pick rudimentary locks (open lock/disarm trap), and etc.
2. Or the character has been on the streets long enough to fight dirty and use whatever advantage it has in a fight (Rogue's Sneak Attack)
3. Maybe the character is well-read and have enough experience to recognize what spells its opponents are casting so it can better prepare itself for the worst case scenario (spellcraft from Bard)

Same goes for 4 levels of fighter dips. Does it make the character, all of a sudden, a hardcore warrior? Likely not, just that the character is better trained in the martial side of things than his peers.

I believe one doesn't have to roleplay the aforementioned classes (only the aforementioned, more below) to the fullest extent just because they were dipped. But adding a few flavor to it wouldn't hurt, it is up to the player's choice to make it become a spotlight or simply something off to the side of things.

Of course, the classes I vehemently believe that should be roleplayed to the highest standard, even if they're only dip classes, are the following:
Paladin, Blackguard, and any of the PrC (Pale Master, Harper, etc.).

I personally still am not certain about monks and how their dips should be treated as.

[DangerDolphin]

But yeah, seems multiclassing allows for variety, but it's also weird because it decreases the variety because one build becomes the best.

That's not true for all multi-classing though. Wizard works well with Bard, Ranger, Shadowdancer, CoT, etc

If there was a class that gave +Saves for INT modifier you wouldn't see any variety though

[Dr. B]

Of course, the classes I vehemently believe that should be roleplayed to the highest standard, even if they're only dip classes, are the following:
Paladin, Blackguard, and any of the PrC (Pale Master, Harper, etc.).

I personally still am not certain about monks and how their dips should be treated as.

Maybe to put the point another way, classes that require alignment restrictions require you to roleplay that alignment. If you're not playing the alignment on your character's sheet then you're not staying in character. So if you dip monk, which requires a lawful alignment, and yet run around starting fights, breaking oaths, and stirring up discord, then you're probably not staying in character.

[Aeralad]

Of course, the classes I vehemently believe that should be roleplayed to the highest standard, even if they're only dip classes, are the following:
Paladin, Blackguard, and any of the PrC (Pale Master, Harper, etc.).

I personally still am not certain about monks and how their dips should be treated as.

Maybe to put the point another way, classes that require alignment restrictions require you to roleplay that alignment. If you're not playing the alignment on your character's sheet then you're not staying in character. So if you dip monk, which requires a lawful alignment, and yet run around starting fights, breaking oaths, and stirring up discord, then you're probably not staying in character.

Brother Avelyn Desbris though. Lol

[cowboy]

Unlike taking a rogue dip or a bard dip, which is often done for Spellcraft or Tumble - a couple free feats.

Monk Dips, Blackguard Dips, and Paladin Dips bequeath you a MASSIVE gain.

Monk dips give you evasion, tumble, and wisdom AC, as well as 10% move speed in 3 levels.

Dive dips give you free saving throws, free damage, and free ac. In the case of paladin access to a BUSTED ring, some very insane gear, and a bunch of UMD.

In my opinion:

Monk AC needs to be given much later - perhaps level 9.

Div dip saving throws similarly.

The APR and the Divine DMG and Divine AC is fine.

But all of these things combined, especially now that UMD is everywhere via lore makes Div Dips, Monk Dips, and /DIV-MONK/ dips very, very attractive.

[Shadowy Reality]

I am all for multiclassing but I think some of the current dips are just too good.

Monk, Paladin and Blackguard in particular are super front loaded, in 3/4 levels you get a massive boost.

How are 3 levels in these fine but Cavalier is considered frontloaded? The ability to deal 180-270 damage every 9 seconds is not that much better than gaining permanent +10 saves and an ability to gain +10ac/damage or, permanent +10 ac and speed.

[AstralUniverse]

I just dont see these 'game breaking' uses for these dips. Sure, they sync very well with classes who already have high wisdom or charisma, respectively to monk or divines. The rest of the builds who take these dips need to invest in one extra attribute they dont need for anything else other than what they get from that dip. So the dip makes you 'call on the bet' and raise the investment. Then for a caster to suddenly need 13 str and 2 feats (divine shield and power attack) is awkward. Or for a healer to give up -respite. Of course, all of this can change within some time after few more class additions/reworks but right now we're fine.

[Cataclysm of Iron]

Dipping classes per se isn't an issue, as people have said - it allows for versatility in roleplaying and character styles. But when there are one or two powerful and 'correct' dips commonly known which prevail, it becomes quite strange and doesn't really create a believable environment - this is especially true when a lot of those dips are particularly strongly-defined and roleplay-heavy classes (Monk, Paladin, Blackguard). I don't just think this is because 'hurr durr people don't RP their paladin right grrr' - obviously a few will fall into that ballpark but even if they all RP the dip perfectly, it doesn't create a good situation - paladins, blackguards, and monks wouldn't feel right if every third person you met professed themselves to be one and to live by such a code.

As a few people have said though, essentially there will always be a 'correct' optimization, and that won't really change whatever tools we have and whatever rules we play with (ban ____ class, shift ______ feature to Class Level 12/15/28/majority, decrease/increase minimum dip levels, ban ______ class from multiclassing). Unless the server was perfectly balanced in all aspects for all classes and combinations which I suspect 1) is impossible, 2) if possible, is beyond any realistic possibility, and 3) would be really boring anyway.

I'm not sure whether this issue might not be the obsessive focus on optimization, rather than any particular form of it. Obviously, some people would find a way to get the best out of things regardless, but when it comes to the build ecosystem, the prevalence of certain dip classes, a neglect of other archetypes because they're suboptimal, and so on - surely the increased obsession with this has to come from the existence of a "Builds and Mechanics" subforum here, the existence and nature of the Discord, and the proliferation of hyper-optimized 'cookie-cutter' builds (because for my money, if there's one thing nobody on an RP server should be, it's cookie-cutter). A little bit more mystery and a little bit less deconstruction of things into cold, hard numbers could go a long way, in my view. Although, it is a cultural thing and that may just be ingrained at this point.

[TheRagingGoblin]

Paladin and blackguard don't give "free" bonuses. A character tends to start with slightly lower strength to afford raising charisma and then your con gift goes to charisma for the next bump. It also costs three feats.

Then you need to invest gear (which in the case of templar plate vs adamantine is one less ac) / buff charisma, and at the start of combat you have to spend time activating Divine Shield and Divine Might.

Just because something is effective when building doesn't mean it's overpowered. I've built a ton of melee PCs and a divine dip is valuable but not too strong, and if divine dips were nerfed you'd see another relative boost to full spellcasters (as other builds lose an option to gain saves), which are still much stronger in comparison to mundanes since the UMD/lore changes.

Divine dips have costs involved but what this cost isn't is a large investment of levels.

Monk dips on the other hand I'm less sure of. Here's why:



Blue line is quarterstaff dex ranger w/ monk dip for UBAB APR. Other is dex ranger w/ rapier/kukri. It looks about even with the UBAB quarterstaff doing just a little more damage but consider..

1) UBAB quarterstaff lands more hits/round for vampiric regen.
2) Being a monk dip with 14 wisdom base you're getting +8 AC for capping wisdom (which is easy with the gear available to dex ranger/monks).
3) Less damage output lost vs crit immune targets.

You lose possible 2D6 SAs from the rogue dip but that +8 AC is far more valuable especially when it's a build that already has high-ish AC. Truly don't need UMD as it's a divine class for wands + lore. There's no real oppotunity cost here going for monk.

It's the anecdote that I'll point out regarding monk dips. It's objectively -much- better than the other dips available for the dex ranger and this specific build's damage is comparable to a 20/7/3, while having many more skill points, vampiric regen, hide/ms w/ hips in wilderness, access to Blinding Speed and more AC.

WRT RP. If the issue is people not roleplaying what their class is, report them. Especially in the case of paladins. Having only 3 paladin levels means you are a paladin and must RP as such.

[cowboy]

With all due respect to your post;

Gearing wisdom or charisma is absolutely easy to do on Arelith as there is an overabundance of it.

It is very easy to make characters that acquire both large AC and large saving throws.

Monks have two craftables that have +2 wisdom, which are runeable and then can be runed again.

There is a fairly common belt with +2 wisdom and +1 Con. It is both tweakable and readily available for 5% lotto games.

---

Charisma builds have loads of options for all of their charisma needs, an armor that gives them +3 charisma at a piddly sad man cost of 1 AC. Templar armor is only a downgrade because half-plate looks like garbage.

There are a few +2 charisma options available for runic memes and 5% bingo too.

Not to mention a sword which as +2 charisma that spawns often enough.

---

Now the "power" of dip builds really depends on the class you're playing but in terms of melee or ranged characters, both benefit from this.

One of the most powerful builds out there is cleric/monk/div. Its weaker form is melee, its apostalic ascendance super saiyan blue god form is archer.

I am not really going to post beyond this point however; but

UMD is easy for buffing.

Charisma and Wisdom gear are readily available.

It's not hard to get gear.

Paladin and cleric, with good alignment gets you access to a ring that can be +4 DISC +1 dex/con/wis/cha if you so choose.

Zoo buffs stack.

War domain clerics can cast AoV.

But all you need as a "mundane heavy" div dip is to hit +7 on your gear (very easy to do with 3 stats, kind of esoteric but doable for 4 sats). You just drink two easily available potions 2-3 times at most and you're capped. A spellsword / div dip / monk dip is very powerful in the age of NOT EVERYONE HAS A MORDS. [i actually like the lore update, crucify me]

(also paladin fear immunity is super powerful and invalidates a few spells, some monsters, and should be yeeted or changed to work only against specific enemies.)

---

Monk dips and div dips get immediate satisfaction for their three dip investment. They are not comparable to a rogue, bard, or specialist dip. You do not get 7-10 saving throws, ac, or damage from those kinds of dips. You do not get access to guilds usually from those dips.

You get access to div saves or monk AC for your tiny investment. Sometimes both.

Moving saving throws and wisdom AC ahead doesn't kill most of those builds that already exist; it just makes them have to choose to eat their cake or have it. It shouldn't be both.

Or dips for div might / div shield on people who don't want to be some disgusting person forced to take wisdom.

Or lots of APR from a monk dip.

But if you want more of a class's abilities - should require more levels. It should have a cost to have "both saves and ac" or both "lots of APR" and "AC".

Thats all I am saying. Multiclassing is badass and very DND - mechanically from game standards div-dip-apalooza is just a bit goofy atm.

[the grim yeeter]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with dipping, in any sense at all. The "RP sense" of it is determined by how the player RPs their character, not by what others think are logical class combinations or not.

[Kalopsia]

Sorry for quoting my own post, but I believe what I wrote about two months ago in another thread regarding CHA dips is still fairly accurate :)

First of all, I know this is a long post.
Having read most of this thread, I believe that it might help to look at a comparison between divine/non-divine versions of certain builds. Due to the great versatility of builds out there, I’ve decided to look at three common examples of builds with the option for a divine dip: Fighters, Sorcerers and Rogues.

Disclaimer: I am aware that RP is more than numbers, and not everyone “minmaxes” their builds - but when evaluating the balance of classes and game mechanics, RP builds should play a subordinate role. Numbers are more important in such cases :)

That said, let’s begin!


How building for CHA impacts starting stat and gift selection:

• Human Fighter without divine dip: STR:19 DEX:9 CON:18 WIS:8 INT:14 CHA:8
• Human Fighter with divine dip: STR:17 DEX:8 CON:14 WIS:8 INT:14 CHA:18
  Sacrifice for CHA benefits: 1 AB/damage, 60 HP, 2 Fortitude
  Possible CHA benefits: 10AC, 9 (=10-1) damage, 8 (=10-2) Fortitude, 10 Reflex, 10 Will
  Comments: Divine Fighters lose many hit points, but the added saves can justify this investment, as Fighters have a D10 hit dice and are struggling with saves more than they do with HP.
  
  .
• Human Sorcerer without divine dip: STR:9 DEX:8 CON:18 WIS:8 INT:14 CHA:19
• Human Sorcerer with divine dip: STR:13 DEX:9 CON:16 WIS:8 INT:14 CHA:19
  Sacrifice for CHA benefits: 30 HP, 1 Fortitude
  Possible CHA benefits: 14 AC, 13 (=14-1) Fortitude, 14 Reflex, 14 Will
  Comments: As Sorcerers already have high CHA, adding a Divine class generally only necessitates higher starting STR. This is by far the smallest investment of the three.
  
  .
• Human Rogue without divine dip: STR:9 DEX:19 CON:18 WIS:8 INT:14 CHA:8
• Human Rogue with divine dip: STR:14 DEX:17 CON:12 WIS:8 INT:14 CHA:16
  Sacrifice for CHA benefits: 1 AB/AC, 90 HP, 3 Fortitude, 1 Reflex
  Possible CHA benefits: 8 (=9-1) AC, 9 damage, 6 (=9-3) Fortitude, 8 (=9-1) Reflex, 9 Will
  Comments: Divine Rogues lose a large chunk of hit points, making them vulnerable against direct spell damage (IGMS etc.).
  
  .

How building for CHA impacts class dips:

• Human Fighter with Rogue dip: Gets UMD, full Tumble AC, Evasion, 2d6 of Sneak Attacks, Uncanny Dodge and 18 skill points.
• Human Fighter with Bard dip: Gets UMD, full Tumble AC, access to Spellcraft (usually a +4 saves difference), bardic harps (notably, Greater Restoration and Mass Haste) and 12 skill points.
• Human Fighter with Specialist dip: Gets UMD, full Tumble AC, access to Spellcraft (usually a +4 saves difference), 12 skill points and a free Epic Skill Focus.
• Human Fighter with divine dip: Can access the CHA benefits above. Paladin levels add fear immunity and access to divine wands on top of that.
  
  .
• Human Sorcerer with Bard dip: Gets Discipline, UMD, full Tumble AC, access to Spellcraft (usually a +4 saves difference), bardic harps (notably, Greater Restoration) and 12 skill points.
• Human Sorcerer with Specialist dip: Gets Discipline, UMD, full Tumble AC, 12 skill points and a free Epic Skill Focus.
• Human Sorcerer with Ranger dip: Gets Discipline, 12 skill points and a free Epic Spell Focus, as well as access to divine wands. Due to innate access to arcane wands, this makes UMD mostly superfluous.
• Human Sorcerer with divine dip: Gets Discipline and access to the CHA benefits above. Paladin levels add fear immunity and access to divine wands on top of that. Due to innate access to arcane wands, this makes UMD mostly superfluous.
  
  .
• Human Rogue with 6 Fighter levels: Gets Discipline, effectively 2 pre-epic feats (Fighter adds 4, but I’m subtracting 2 for WS/EWS), +1 Fighter AC bonus and +6 damage via (Epic) Weapon Specialization.
• Human Rogue with 5 divine levels: Gets Discipline and access to the CHA benefits above. Paladin levels add fear immunity and let the rogue use the Squire’s Vestment, which is very powerful.
  
  .

How building for CHA impacts feat selection:

• Human Fighter: 3 of about 17 pre-epic feats
  Comments: Fighters rarely lack feats - if anything, they are lacking opportunities to use their plethora of feats for. Low investment.
  
  .
• Human Sorcerer: 2 of 8 pre-epic feats:
  Comments: This generally equals the difference between having a second (in some cases, third) spell focus or not, and could thus be called a fairly high investment.
  
  .
• Human Rogue: 3 of 8 pre-epic feats (plus the rogue bonus feats):
  Comments: This generally equals the difference between having active combat feats like (Improved) Knockdown or not. In light of the recent knockdown changes, some Rogues might use these feats for higher saving throws instead, lowering the gap between CHA and non-CHA variants.
  
  .

How building for CHA impacts endgame (“soft 5%” or rune) gear:
With the (notable) exception of sorcerers, characters generally gear for [STR or DEX]/CON/Discipline/[another skill], then use a rune to add universal saving throws. Divine builds would gear for [STR or DEX]/CON/[singular save bonus]/Discipline/[another skill], then use a rune to add CHA.
What this means is that in order to reach +7 CHA on their gear, these builds sacrifice up to 7 universal saving throws. The added CHA save bonus only makes up for half the difference, the higher base CHA (over-)compensates the rest. In practice, the resulting increase in saving throws is not as dramatic as the numbers in the stat-section would suggest.

Conclusion:
Building for CHA doubtlessly has its merits, but the added AC, damage and saving throws come at a price that makes the actual benefits less powerful than they might seem on paper. Most builds need to sacrifice HP and/or AB, making them more vulnerable against burst damage, while others sacrifice feats and lose access to other combat options. (The one exception that, in my opinion, might require further consideration is divine sorcerers, which can access these CHA benefits with a much smaller investment than most other characters.)

37+ fortitude, reflex and will against spells can be achieved by many, if not most builds when properly geared - and builds that cannot do so can generally make up for the difference by sacrificing a few feats.

It should also be noted that Divine Shield AC is not as reliable due to being dodge AC (which is lost while flat-footed, even with Uncanny Dodge) and both divine feats last a fairly short duration. This fact can be used to a tactical advantage.

With all that said, I believe the current situation regarding these divine builds is fairly balanced, and limiting the bonuses would limit build versatility rather than saving throw numbers. Many melee characters are building and gearing for saving throws these days, to survive against casters despite the loss of their former UMD scrolls.

[Aeralad]

"Having only 3 levels of paladin means you must play it as such."
I'm wondering about the phrasing here with regards to paladin and bg whatever class you want mentioned above for HAVING to...

I''m wondering it should be "if you choose paladin and play against alignment, your alignment change will result in a loss of your features."

It's a bit different than MUST. Like what if I wanted to play a paladin at start who over time becomes a pirate and accepts the loss of the paladin features? Is that acceptable or not per the setting?
I don't care either way, it's just for clarification.
Also for clarification about the loss of the features, or will it instead be a delevel? A delevel might be good to, but it's like oh crap I gotta do all those writs again and I can't be with these people at my earlier level anymore whatever.

[Drowboy]

'Dipping' is a problem solved, not by new restrictions, but by minding your business. Does it genuinely matter to you that someone might have monk levels you think aren't being played right? Too bad. Calm down. It's not your job to determine that. Random restrictions on stuff like this just causes a game of balance or to wack a mole like lore/umd and outcasts->norp-slaves->freed-mega-outcasts are. Entirely predictable and entirely pointless. It might 'feel' good to try and 'fix' but it's a solution in need of a problem that just makes everything worse.

[Kuma]

3 levels of paladin, rogue, or whatever, does not need to be roleplayed as if you had 30 levels of them - they are different levels, different styles, different flavours. is this a controversial opinion?

[NPC Logger Number 2]

'Dipping' is a problem solved, not by new restrictions, but by minding your business. Does it genuinely matter to you that someone might have monk levels you think aren't being played right? Too bad. Calm down. It's not your job to determine that.

Gotta agree with this. I have gotten the IC treatment of, "Are you a sorcerer? A ranger? A druid? OH you must be a MONK!" I don't think there was any malicious intent behind it or anything but really, what does it matter what my class is? Why can't my character just be a person who happens to use this weapon and know these spells? If someone is minding their own business and not going around summoning undead it probably shouldn't matter to you or your character what class they are. I do agree Paladin levels should be role played and that Monks should follow the Lawful alignment restriction. But it gets annoying having to explain my exact character build over and over again IC when I just want to RP as a person with a weapon and a few spells.

[Griefmaker]

The problem with class dipping is the way NWN executes it, things like caster level/dispels, skill dumping, front-loaded benefits and things like that.

Class dipping and multi-class characters allow for that wizard to take a few levels of rogue to know a few tricks, but they are not supposed to go from one day not knowing how to steal the candy from a baby to suddenly being a master thief/spy/agent and so on. But class dipping can allow for a lot of fun and cool and unique ideas to come to life.

Even looking at things like Elminster from 3E...he is 24 wizard, 5 archmage, and even has 3 levels of cleric, 2 of rogue, and 1 of fighter.

Sure, he is a "mage", but he has been known to use trickery and roguish skills on occasion and utilize other talents that are more in line with those classes. But those splashes are only to represent some of his knowledge and experience utilizing those skills. He also does not suddenly tumble about like a master rogue or know how to handle every weapon and wield plate like a proficient fighter who has done it for years. I also do not know if archmage CL is added to wizard, but if it is not, Elminster would be dead meat on Arelith due to being dispel-bait.

Sadly, NWN cannot capture that. And nowadays things are looked at from a PvP power standpoint, meaning that in PnP a lot of splashes/multi-classes/etc. are viable and fun and powerful in their own way, but in the game they fail miserably when it comes to PvP. So the way level dipping is nowadays is likely how it shall remain.

(Warning, personal opinions ahead!) I suspect if they wished to the Devs could find a way to work their black magic to change the system. And in truth, I would prefer it myself, since I think it would result in more organic characters. And I personally despise the splash in other classes which does not give some small benefits of the class, but as one person said, gives many front-loaded benefits. I also think that pure classes who have focused solely on something should be objectively better at it than any sort of multi, even with just a minor splash in other classes. That does not mean they should be uber powerful, just that they should be the undeniable masters at whatever it is they are supposed to be doing. How to make that a reality is something beyond me though with how the game is.

Though if I were to try from a high level (meaning I am pulling things out of my butt and it would undoubtedly change a lot more once getting into the weeds as always happens during actual development), a few things to start with would be some of what is has been said already and would require a bit more dedication to get the boons.

In fact, I look at Weapon Master in a favorable light here, because to get that power, you have to not only have had many feats taken, some of which are not all that useful, but you also need 7 levels of it before the full strength of it is felt. Gate or reduce the bonuses of things like monk wis AC, Pal/BG saves, and even divine might/shield (unless all cleric/pally levels...not sure what to do with BGs there) to 7 levels before the full strength can be utilized. Monk unarmed bonus...should be for unarmed only, not with weapons too. Make that ability something useful and unique again. Skill dumping...I would say only be able to bank maybe 20 skill points max at a time.

The gating behind 7 levels would require real investment with real downsides as well to achieve that power. And if only 3 levels were taken, then some benefit would be gained, but not the same as a character who has focused heavily upon those classes. Which is as it should be.

But I also realize that it would be a massive undertaking since having to re-balance everything would be necessary as well. And the Devs have better uses of their time and not enough alcohol to suffer through something like that, so the way things are is likely here to stay! Plus, all it would do is shift the meta to something else (likely wizards/casters would remain the unquestioned master race) and then more re-balancing would need to occur.

[CptJonas]

Well....I would put here one realy just personal and maybe not nice to everyone option....

Limit all dip power to like lvl 9 feature (monk ac etc, paladin grace, ...)

And give all classes all skills as class skills....so no more skill dips....and more sacrifice if you want certain cookie.....

[Arigard]

Just make it fair across the board and tie ability bonus to levels taken.

Want to dip 3 monk? Fine, but you'll only get a maximum of 3 wis ac bonus from it (5 for 5, 10 for 10 etc) & perhaps move monk UBAB to a higher level, or require majority of monk levels to register. This would be to represent that however you spin it having only 3 levels in a class makes you a beginner in that area. You don't have the relevant experience to gain -all- the benefits from that ability unless you invest more to gain that expertise.

Same for Pally/BG saves & associated bonuses for divine shield/might. There's zero justification IMO why a character deserves +10 AC/DMG/Saves from a 3 level dip. These abilities are the core parts of whole class lines & represent considerable practice/time spent honing those skills. They should be worth more imo, not just "I've been given the key to unlock this skill, I now instantly master it overnight".

There are plenty of class abilities tied to levels, it's really only monk AC and Divine Blessing that doesn't. Spells, summons, BAB and the majority of core class mechanics are capped by level & class. You don't get access to a lvl 9 Sorcerer spells just for taking 3 spell levels, or max out a rogues sneak attack, so why should you be able to get full bonuses from monk/divine dips. it's inconsistent.

Skills are a separate system, so I don't really see an issue in that regard, but being able to roll for example, a 27 sorc and then dipping 3 levels into blackguard is pretty paper thin in terms of it being an RP decision. However you really spin it and even if you do RP the character as being that class (paladin/bg/monk etc), being a 3rd level Blackguard/monk is not far along that class progression to really give it much mechanical weight on the character sheet & we all know in our heart of hearts, we're doing it mechanically first and then building RP to justify it, rather than the other way around. You don't have any of the tools to really RP those characters properly (You're not walking around with Pit Fiends, or casting Holy Sword, you're what a 3rd level caster would be to a much higher level caster, an initiate at best in that art-form).

Monk is the only real exception to this and in all honesty, these few exceptions to the rule only really hurt those base core classes.

[Ork]

It's not an RP decision however you really spin it and even if you do RP the character as being that class (paladin/bg/monk etc), being a 3rd level Blackguard/monk is not far along that class progression to really give it much mechanical weight on the character sheet.

Again, disingenuous and judgemental towards players who make conscious efforts to roleplay their character sheets. We all choose things that are mechanical flavor - there is not one build currently on arelith that did not make a conscious choice to increase their ability to defeat monsters.

The pendulum swings. When I joined Arelith, everyone thought like you, Arigard. No one cared about mechanics and generally the people in power were clerics and wizards. As mechanics became more understood and well-known, the climate shifted to embracing new mechanical possibilities and experimenting with the game. A player can derive their enjoyment from roleplay and mechanical considerations - these are not mutually exclusive from each other. Here's the facts: remove paladin/BG/monk dips and you remove build diversity and increase the already OVERWHELMING power of casting classes. It would be the literal nail in mundane classes to compete on any level with casters.

[Dr. B]

Dive dips give you free saving throws, free damage, and free ac.

These latter two points are inaccurate. Divine Might and Shield are not free, as they require an investment of three feats and a minimum of 13 strength. On builds that do not take fighter levels, this usually results in a very tight feat selection that necessitates the loss of other goodies.

I've played three BG dips. One was a Bard/Fighter/BG. She was an infernalist and extremely evil; I loved that character and the way being a blackguard contributed to her roleplay. The other is a Ranger/BG/Assassin who believes in committing murder for its own sake. The character is not even that great mechanically, but I liked the concept and the gameplay is very fun. Currently I'm playing a fighter/BG/Divine Champion of Lolth. Do I need to justify the Blackguard dip here? On all these characters, I chose to take these dips not solely, or even primarily, for the mechanical power, but because I thought being a blackguard was cool, story-wise, and yet I wanted to do something with the class other than dragging a fiend around. If heavy BG investment was required for the class to be useful, then all blackguards would be built pretty much the same way and do the exact same thing, and it would be boring.

Splashing classes can make for fun and cool character concepts. Please don't take it away. And I'm sorry, but people need to stop fretting about the topic of other people's class dips. Are people mad because they think other people are not roleplaying their class dips, or are they mad because taking a class dip is in and of itself not sufficient for roleplaying the class? Or is the idea that nothing should be free? Because taking 3 classes isn't free; it forecloses various other build options to have to do that. Honestly, go find something else to be mad about.

[DangerDolphin]

I have certainly been convinced by Kalopsia's post that Divine dips aren't quite as powerful as we think due to the feat sacrificing involved. Though this kind of worries me:

Here's the facts: remove paladin/BG/monk dips and you remove build diversity and increase the already OVERWHELMING power of casting classes. It would be the literal nail in mundane classes to compete on any level with casters.

If this is true, that's very worrying for any mundane build not dipping these. It also seems like a very dodgy crutch to base server balance on.

Perhaps one fix here could be to look again at mundane level 14+ abilities and add some additional feats to choose from, for instance immunity to specific spells (To reward mages who use obscure ones) or magic damage resistance.

[Dr. B]

Revisiting the lore requirements for scrolls is also called for. Right now, they are simply too high.

[Arigard]

Again, disingenuous and judgemental towards players who make conscious efforts to roleplay their character sheets.

This is fine, but a lvl 3 Paladin is not the same RPwise as a majority Paladin. Dipping your toe into the pool doesn't make you a world class swimmer. Likewise with a Blackguard, or Monk. People playing their character sheet need to actually RP that they are only a low level in that class and not the same as a version that has all the bells and whistles that give those classes their identity. Just like a mage that can only cast lvl 3 spells vs a mage that can cast lvl 9 + epic spells.

There is nowhere near the mechanical and character sheet depth with a 3 level dip to adequately RP being a fully rounded character in these paths, so if people are doing that to justify their class dip combo, then all it is doing is churning out the same "tick the box" RP across pretty much every build out there. Where is variety in that when everyone does it across the board?

I play and build fine within the world (I enjoy making characters mechanically) and have had multiple lvl 30 characters with dips (zen archers/Spellswords etc), I even had a Sorc/BG with 65+ AC and stupid crazy saves. I'm no stranger to dipping or building powerful characters. This is objective feedback that would hurt every single one of my characters if it went forward at a mechanical level, but I'd rather play in a world where things are consistent and make sense, than band aids based on this class, or that class.

The fact is right now the only dips being taken across the board are mechanically powerful ones. Is every character out there trying to justify being a monk, or a blackguard? Even if they are it's a little jarring to see every class having to go down the same RP justification route simply because they all took 3 monk. How many people are dipping into 3 cleric, or 3 druid, or 3 of another non optimal class compared to Monk/Bard/Paladin/Blackguard? It's non existent on the whole, because these choices are not chosen for RP. It's 100% mechanical. If it isn't why not more levels? Why not get a few of the abilities that are staple RP elements of those classes?

We all do it, I'm not trying to throw shame on anyone for it, but the point is it doesn't make sense that 90% of classes and class abilities are tied to level, whilst two of the most common class dips are outliers (monk/BG/Pally) and also happen to be the most powerful.

The suggestion also, if you'll scroll up isn't to remove dips, you could still dip into these classes to get bonuses, they would just scale more fairly compared to other classes and be a little bit less of all give and no take. If you want the massive bonuses they offer, as any class, then you should be prepared to give a little to get them and not just tack them on at the end as a necessity with no downsides. It would make balancing across the board a lot easier too. Things like nerfing monk for Druid wouldn't be so necessary because they would need to make a lot more investment into the class to begin with to get the bonuses they want, but would in turn bring in weaknesses to do so (lower CL/shifting ability etc).

With divine shield as it does require some investment, perhaps it's scaling could be eased more than monk, considering monk is a literal cross class with zero investment. If it was me I would not cap DS/DM itself but cap turn undead in a fair way and max save bonuses to class levels.

For monk you could cap ac to level and then add the extra attacks/ubab based on certain multiples unless pure monk (so monks levelling don't get nerfed), but classes dipping don't instantly overnight become zen masters.

Keep in mind a 3 dip in monk scaled still offers 3 ac, tumble, discipline and evasion... Whilst bg/pally would offer disc + 3 uni saves and 3 mins of divine shield. These are still very strong dips, just not completely broken.

At the end of the day, all good balancing in games revolves around risk/reward and investment/return. When these areas are skewed, is when you start to see things break.

Here's the facts: remove paladin/BG/monk dips and you remove build diversity and increase the already OVERWHELMING power of casting classes. It would be the literal nail in mundane classes to compete on any level with casters.

A big reason casters are so powerful right now is due to these dips because their key spell-casting stats double up. Spell-swords dipping monk and getting stupid APR for 3 levels + AC. Sorcerers dipping BG/Paladin and adding 10+ uni saves across the board and using divine shield on top if desired. Zen Archery Cleric/Monks doubling up on their core stat. Cleric/monk Naganata builds etc.

The 3 level dips help caster classes WAY more than they help mundane because caster classes need the caster levels & dipping anymore starts to negatively impact them. Mundanes don't have this same problem, so they have more freedom to build around bigger splits.

but because I thought being a blackguard was cool, story-wise, and yet I wanted to do something with the class other than dragging a fiend around.

If you took Blackguard solely for the RP, then mechanics are secondary, are they not? Saying "I want to play a Blackguard because it's cool" is different to saying "I want to have divine shield/might" because it's a must have mechanic. Taking it because it gives you divine shield, is not really playing a blackguard RPwise, you're still only a novice blackguard & this is inherently the problem with dips, they make very little sense when things don't scale and it has confusing results on both the RP and continuity within the mechanical paths.

For example, if I want to play a priest/healer, but only dip 3 levels and have no ability to heal or raise the dead in anyway, it's going to be very hard to justify being an actual healer/priest because I do not get mechanically backed up by the character sheet. At that point you're equivalent in levels in that class as a new character that just got off the boat and did its deliveries.