Spirited Charge is OP

[Tarkus the dog]

Cavalier is pretty cool.

One issue though:

My 6 bard 19 palemaster 5 cavalier 3 EDR dwarf runs around dealing 180 damage to crit/sneak immune mobs around the PGCC playground knocking them down and disarming them with spirited charge.

Other options are dwarven defender, barbarian ( both with EDR ), or anything else that makes you immortal, really. Too bad lances are not finesseable, otherwise DEX would be the way to go.

25 warlock 5 cavalier might be my favorite. Running around and paralyzing mobs just to hit them for 180 damage with a lance is pretty intriguing. Or having a balor summon, that's also kind of neat.

[Scraps]

To be honest, when you've got someone paralyzed and flatfooted- 180 damage should be on the low end of the kind of damage you should be able to pump into them in a round.

Also Small lances are finessable!

[Tarkus the dog]

To be honest, when you've got someone paralyzed and flatfooted- 180 damage should be on the low end of the kind of damage you should be able to pump into them in a round.

Also Small lances are finessable!

I'm actually...

Yeah, I can't. This is too much. Lmao.

[Scraps]

Alright man, good luck with your builds!

You'll find something that works for you.

[Sockss]

It gives a significant boost and gameplay style in 5 levels, with virtually no downsides for taking it thanks to bonus feats.

Very similar to the harper dynamic which is, frankly, awful. (Harper tends to be superior for most cross-classing)

The problem points here are:
Damage output is decoupled from sneak/str/feats, enabling you to build solely defensively while maintaining a relatively decent damage output. (You're about on par with a warlock, but able to build more defensively)
The +10 ab is instant and can be used in conjunction with combat feats and, say, warlock blasts / other touch attacks (This may be a bug)
The charge ability, coupled with horses, promotes hit and run gameplay which is exceptionally awful for melee characters bordering on exploiting the engine.

If cavalier was fleshed out to be a full 30 level class, and the charge was made Class Level, instead of character level, this would solve the first problem.

Or if the CD was longer than 9 seconds. I'd probably do 15-18 seconds, so if a PC is using this as their only damage output, as they're highly defensive, they aren't going to be making much of a problem for anyone else.

I'm presuming the second is a bug.

The third is something that shouldn't be promoted IMO, probably the opposite should be the case. However front-loading an attack causes this. It might be better to apply a movement speed reduction to both the cavalier and the target for a round, as the shock/impact of the charge, just to prevent that - or something of the sort.

[Adhemar Leddra]

Damage output is decoupled from sneak/str/feats, enabling you to build solely defensively while maintaining a relatively decent damage output. (You're about on par with a warlock, but able to build more defensively)

When you say decoupled... There are a few ways of possibly understanding this.

1. Like assassinate damage - Applied on top and after regular (crit modified) damage.
2. It disables crits and sneaks, but applies spirited charge+regular damage.
3. Spirited charge totally replaces damage you would otherwise do.

Which of these is the case?

[cowboy]

Cavalier needs a higher level of qualifcation.

Out of the "three new classes", though this one is technically a prestige class, it doesn't seem to have too high a bar or investment path being only five levels to get its abilities.

It gives free feats, in particular one I find a bit weird and one that seems like it should be a prequisite - Mounted Combat. How can you become a cavalier without you know... being a cavalier?

Has no synergy with the other two knight classes (knight and Paladin).

Like Socks is saying it probably just needs deeper investment, and shouldn't quite get so much for free. I also think its HP threshold should be lowered to d10 if it gains more levels.

Its spirited charge ability needs a cooldown beyond nine seconds. Most of the PDK's spammable abilities are at least a minute thirty.

It also needs something going for it outside of horse combat as horses can only exist in a tiny amount of the server.

---

I like the idea. I think it should have more synergy with PDK and Paladin given those are knight classes and they might deserve to gain from eachother. Like maybe summon mount being supplied back to paladin, and some of their bonuses being scaled off of eachother.

[Sockss]

Damage output is decoupled from sneak/str/feats, enabling you to build solely defensively while maintaining a relatively decent damage output. (You're about on par with a warlock, but able to build more defensively)

When you say decoupled... There are a few ways of possibly understanding this.

1. Like assassinate damage - Applied on top and after regular (crit modified) damage.
2. It disables crits and sneaks, but applies spirited charge+regular damage.
3. Spirited charge totally replaces damage you would otherwise do.

Which of these is the case?

3, I believe it also applies sneak damage though.

[Imperatrix]

Charge should have a much bigger cooldown.

Both thematically and from a gameplay perspective, charge is/should be something you do to initiate combat and gain an advantage in subsequent rounds due to a strong opener. It's not something you should be running around and doing every nine second, or even every thirty seconds. I'd give it at least a two minute cooldown. I'd also downtune AB and damage and/or tie it to existing melee ability (forcing to build for ab and damage normally) to avoid the class being a one trick gimmick.

I also think the class (and every other PrC, imo) should have 10 levels minimum to gain all its abilities. Four free feats for five levels is pretty crazy for a class that already gets a very strong opener ability. Alternatively just give them less feats.

Mounted combat should be a prerequisite... generally speaking a PrC should build upon traits/builds a character already possesses, not just give them for free.

I'm looking forward to these new classes though, they're all very cool and I'm excited to see them in game. Cavalier is just a bit much right now.

[Hunter548]

Cavalier takes almost zero investment to get, encourages some of the most cancerous gameplay you can do in NWN (Spirited Charge, kite for 9 seconds, Spirited Charge, kite for nine seconds, repeat until you hit the 5% chance for extra damage), and slots way too easily into basically everything because of the bonus feats; It's feat equivalent to 5 fighter levels, on top of getting all the ride bonuses free.

It probably needs to take more than five levels, and needs to have more requirements than just eight ride ranks and six BAB, since basically every build can get that. Mounted Combat would be a really good pre-requisite as Imperatrix mentioned, as is putting spirited charge on a significantly longer cooldown. You also could give them other ride-centric class abilities if you made them a 10 level or more class.

[Ork]

I feel like cavalier could use combat stances instead of specific abilities.

Trample: While on horseback, a cavalier can usher her mount to causes damage to surrounding foes equal to their cavalier level + ride/10 per round that lasts for rounds/cavalier level. The ability is on cooldown for 3 minutes afterwards.

Warding Manuever: While on horseback, a cavalier gains a percentage of resistance to physical damage equal to his cavalier level + ride/10.

Hold the Line: While on horseback, a cavalier can instruct her mount to creates difficulties for opponents trying to maneuver or flank the horseman causing a malus of -10% movement for opponents within 5 feet of the cavalier for rounds/cavalier level. The ability has a cooldown of 3 minutes.

[Scraps]

Rather than up the cooldown on spirited charge, having it lock the character in place for a round after the damage applies is one way to deal with it.

The charge is a full round action, have the character locked in place 'dwarven defender' style root for 6 seconds after the charge.

That counteracts the big problem of getting your big burst of damage, but immediately booking it before you can be effectively counter attacked.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Rather than up the cooldown on spirited charge, having it lock the character in place for a round after the damage applies is one way to deal with it.

The charge is a full round action, have the character locked in place 'dwarven defender' style root for 6 seconds after the charge.

That counteracts the big problem of getting your big burst of damage, but immediately booking it before you can be effectively counter attacked.

Actually i think we have the opposite problem where one is free to keep doing normal attacks on the rounds they are waiting on cooldown, when something like "Ride By Attack" in PnP lets them ride past them as part of the charge.

If one had to constantly back away and go back ij to charge, it make knock down memes with improved ab less of an issue, easier to obstruct path with fixtures and make range characters more relevant.

I propose to make spirit charge work like this:

Activate a stance (call it "couching") that disables all attacks but allows you to activate another ability (spirited charge)after waiting (setting up your couch) for 9 seconds and keep doing said ability every 9 seconds. You can't get initiate even your first spirited charge until you been in said stance for 9 (or x) amount of seconds. So ideally you initiate this stance at a distance so that x seconds amount of seconds can occur before in melee range and then you peel to go back in and charge, but you can't do normal attacks in between your "free damage" charge attacks. Abd since it is an activated ability versus a normal attack, it wont combine with things like knock down or disarm.

[Dr. B]

Rather than up the cooldown on spirited charge, having it lock the character in place for a round after the damage applies is one way to deal with it.

The charge is a full round action, have the character locked in place 'dwarven defender' style root for 6 seconds after the charge.

That counteracts the big problem of getting your big burst of damage, but immediately booking it before you can be effectively counter attacked.

I much prefer the increased cooldown, if only because doing a hit and run is largely the idea behind spirited charge, and also because getting locked in place just doesn't sound particularly fun at all. Being able to retreat after the attack is fine; it's the repetitive kiting and spamming of the ability that's the problem.

[Archnon]

So, to weigh in even though I haven't tested.

I think that spirited charge is OP and that it makes the class super unidimensional. Basically you take 5 levels so that you can wail on someone in the open. It needs to be nerfed. However, I think there are a bunch of other cavalier options that could provide some interesting boons. Further, given that the class is super restricted to open fields on the surface, I think there is room for there to be some decent bonuses when on horseback.

I really liked the three maneuver's mentioned by Ork. I half expected this class to come out as an alternative Knight path and not a unique class. I think modeling it on the Knight class might be interesting tactic. 10 levels, multiple paths where you have a set number of abilities that get better with classes. Some ideas:

Lancer - Main effect is spirited charge
Heavy Calvary - Hold the Line effect.... similar to dwarven defender effect with decreased movement and a buff against flanking opponents
Archer - Some type of archer benefit. not sure what it would look like. maybe an extra APR from horseback. or an elimination of the attacking while moving penalty.
Arcanist - ??? some spell casting ability on horseback, reduction in ASF,

Your level 1 bonus for everyone could be the Warding and your level 5 bonus could be trampling charge.

Smarter people can take this and run if they want but it is just an idea. Obviously it would require a lot more work but it would 1.) Make investing 5 vs 10 in the class worth it 2.) provide some alternatives to running opponents down in the field.

[Flower Power]

I don't think you need to hammer Spirited Charge with many nerfs because, well.

You can't ride horses indoors.

[DangerDolphin]

Would be cool if spirited charge did something different when unmounted, so Cavaliers had something to show for their class when inside caves/dungeons/etc, which is most of the combat areas in the module.

The Cavalier could be offensive/damage based on horseback and slow/tanky on foot.

[Shadowy Reality]

They cannot ride indoors.
They deal about 180-200 damage, with a 5% change of dealing 270-300 damage every 12 seconds now.
They need to beat AC (as opposed to warlocks only needing to beat touch ac).
They need to beat concealment (does Blind Fight apply to spirited charge?)

That is not fantastic, I am not sure if spending 5 levels and a class is worth that. At some point you are better being on horseback and just getting a Gonne. It has a little bit over half the cavalier's damage output and requires no class investment.

I would be totally in agreement with these and further nerfs to the Spirited Charge if the class was not just about that. Give them stances as suggested, give them AB, AC when riding, something. Currently there is only Spirited Charge.