Topic of Dipping Classes

[Void]

Most approaches are not anywhere near as extreme as you are suggesting. They are a slight increase (like HiPS) but most adjustments tend to be based on class levels. No one is moving cleave to level 15 now.

My point was not to use hyperoptimised build as baseline for making decisions.

Because by moving things around, you'll increase difficulty for those who do not engage into it, thus encouraging optimization in some other area.

Doesn't feel right.

Targeted disabling of extreme combination, however, makes more sense, because it is a surgical fix and not a widely applied one. The consequences will be local, easier to predict and number of affected people will be smaller.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

It always makes me laugh- nearly 20 years later and people are still succumbing to the stormwind fallacy.

Here's a question for everyone using the term "powergamer" like a dirty word - what leap of incredible logic do you all use to determine that they must be worse role players, when they're the ones actually willing to spend hours of research on their character, but you just want to throw something together to play?

Put differently, everytime you accuse a power gamer of being bad at RP because they're stronger than your character, I hear "I'm too lazy to put any effort into being good at the things I want my character to do, but that's YOUR fault and I want you to be worse at it so I don't feel bad. "


The game is based on a 20 year old system. Pick up a book and git gud, leave other people's building alone unless they're breaking a golden rule. Advocating for balance in its own right is fine, using powergamer like a slur while doing it is just blaming your laziness on other people- and you can ask the git Gud group, it's not like my builds are exceptional. (To the point that I'm sure I've hurt some of their brains. )

I just don't expect other people to perform down to my level, like how dare they do it better than me. I think I'm probably happier than people who worry about "powergamers" because of it, and i encourage others to give it a try. (Also, those powergamers you hate so much will happily step by step a build for you if you ask like a human being, so everyone can have a level playing field. Awful of them, I know. )

[DangerDolphin]

I can't speak for the original poster, but I think you've missed the point Aelryn. If this is done right then more builds will open up for powergamers to experiment with. Nobody is trying to persecute them here.

In the case of Sorc/Paladin (which was highlighted as a standout in particular) it could enable more Sorc builds that aren't LG Pallies. The idea is to help people by opening up more choices that fit their RP ideas better while still being good builds.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I dealt with those topics in a previous post, and I agree that better build diversity could come as a result of this topic, but the initial post intended to eliminate certain three level dips- removing builds from play doesn't actually increase the versatility of builds you can make, it decreases them and gives other builds fewer things to compete with, which only makes them better artificially by comparison, it doesn't actually confer any extra ability. (Which is to say, if you make an 'RP build' with 15 ac and 25 AB, your life will still suck at The Manor, but you also won't be able to have a tank save your life with divine shield and -guard because that dip was removed.)

Likewise, pushing feats and class attributes to later levels will do the same thing- in some instances, I'm not against this, but I think claiming it will increase build versatility is misleading- it will DECREASE build versatility, which will make the remaining builds more competitive (against other players, because the PVE content is irrelevant to this discussion) without actually increasing their output any (pushing key abilities to later levels will in fact decrease their outputs by slowing their progression. )

However, I felt a very ardent need to address the "powergamer" sentiment that seems to push these threads every couple of months in a very direct way, because it inevitably becomes an (imo) unwanted and unproductive mentality in the discussion.

[AstralUniverse]

maybe cap div grace and div might/shield duration and potency to 3xDiv level

This wouldnt affect majority paladin or bg

Div dips would be capped at 9 uni/ac/damage

Sorcadins would be hit the most, with some losses to their uni/ac, or to cl. A 26/4 would stop at 12, vs 14. A 27/3 would stop at 9 (but still be able to cap dodge ac if they take ema).

Not sure if this is enough tho. Alternative is make div grace require 5 levels, like Harper paragon. Problem is, that makes these dips substantially worse than paragon. I think paragon should lose some of its free feats; maybe just make it give power attack for free at lvl 1.

Making it take 5 levels would definitely hit sorcadins, as they would lose their 26 bonus feat and have to take a hit to their cl if they wanted the saves (note I am NOT saying to give turn undead at lvl 5 paladin, just div grace).

Bardadins would lose a feat, as they would have to go 20/5/5 instead of 21/6/3.

Div rogues would lose a feat, having to go 19/6/5

Brycer would take a hit, having to go 22/5/3 (and lose the 23 fighter ab, which is a big ouch)

Div archers would lose a feat, having to go 22/5/3 instead of 23/4/3 or 21/6/3

Just some ideas

Are sorcadins really that good you suggest to nerf all these awesome, popular, versatile and fun and BALANCED builds? I havent seen a sorcadin for 3-4 years and the last one I remember got banned (or otherwise punished and left willingly maybe) so I dunno. Maybe you're right, but also maybe you're being effected by the opinions on these forums too much? Saying this with upmost respect of course.

[Cataclysm of Iron]

It always makes me laugh- nearly 20 years later and people are still succumbing to the stormwind fallacy.

Here's a question for everyone using the term "powergamer" like a dirty word - what leap of incredible logic do you all use to determine that they must be worse role players, when they're the ones actually willing to spend hours of research on their character, but you just want to throw something together to play?

I think it arises from a mixture of when some builds are too strong, they can be overrepresented on the server to a degree that can be hard to buy into even if each individual iteration is harmless and well roleplayed, and also the prevailing notion which can arise, amongst a vocal minority (and it is a minority) of powerbuilders that it is 'incorrect' or 'wrong' to build a different way or make different concessions to aspects of character - I've definitely encountered folks who can be quite belligerent or condescending about it. There is also an underlying tension in terms of building for roleplay or power in some areas - for example, whether you put those skill points into Intimidate because your character has finished several story arcs as a menacing threat who terrifies people, or into Tumble because +6 AC is just objectively very powerful.

But I do fundamentally agree that they're just different places on a sliding scale of how to have fun - powerbuilders are having fun by optimizing and they're only doing something wrong when they stray into telling people whose idea of having fun is to build around or use suboptimal mechanical choices are having fun the wrong way, rather than a different way (and likewise vice-versa).

It often ends up in that territory but a question about dipping classes isn't at its core about optimized/not optimized builds. It's about build diversity - is there a problem when the majority of characters on the server have 3+ levels in one of a small handful of classes - and resulting from that, about the rarity of certain abilities - is it good for the integrity of the setting when abilities, feats, or skills which are theoretically limited to a small number of individuals/specialities are represented in a large percentage of the server population.

It's a server design and policy conversation, not a build conversation. Currently (and for as long as I've been aware) builds with dips are often optimal and the server has been built to accommodate their presence and the difficulty ceiling balanced around a level of optimal power which incorporates class dips - whilst that is true (and whether or not you like it being true), how can you personally hold individuals responsible for building the best thing they can within those boundaries? I, personally, feel that the popularity of a mechanically-focussed server Discord and an official forum-hosted Builds and Mechanics board don't have a positive impact in that regard (with reference to my points about build diversity and immersive rarity of abilities) but I can't hold anyone responsible for using them or leaning in that direction when they're a popular and publicized resource.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Are sorcadins really that good you suggest to nerf all these awesome, popular, versatile and fun and BALANCED builds? I havent seen a sorcadin for 3-4 years and the last one I remember got banned (or otherwise punished and left willingly maybe) so I dunno. Maybe you're right, but also maybe you're being effected by the opinions on these forums too much? Saying this with upmost respect of course.

This is mostly anecdotal. But before I rolled my Sorc/Pally they posted the statistics for what players were playing what race, class, etc. I was the only Sorc/Pally on the server at that time. In all my time on the server (a couple of years now) I've seen one other Sorc/Pally and they are also rolled now. If Sorc/Pally was such a problem balance-wise you'd think more people would play them. Lately all I have been seeing is shadow dancers though. At one point I was in a party of 4 and everyone was a shadow dancer but me. We met a 5th person and they joined the party and sure enough they summon a shadow.

[Aren]

I can't speak for the original poster, but I think you've missed the point Aelryn. If this is done right then more builds will open up for powergamers to experiment with. Nobody is trying to persecute them here.

In the case of Sorc/Paladin (which was highlighted as a standout in particular) it could enable more Sorc builds that aren't LG Pallies. The idea is to help people by opening up more choices that fit their RP ideas better while still being good builds.

What am I even reading?
No one is forcing you to play a lawful good sorcerer/paladin. You can play the exact kind of sorcerer you want? No one is forcing you to take paladin levels?

[AstralUniverse]

I can't speak for the original poster, but I think you've missed the point Aelryn. If this is done right then more builds will open up for powergamers to experiment with. Nobody is trying to persecute them here.

In the case of Sorc/Paladin (which was highlighted as a standout in particular) it could enable more Sorc builds that aren't LG Pallies. The idea is to help people by opening up more choices that fit their RP ideas better while still being good builds.

You're not forced to be lawful good and take paladin levels just because it might be slightly mechanically superior to a ranger dip that would give you better skills, bonus feat and doesnt extort 13 str and 2 feats from you for divine shield. Or a specialist dip, same reasons. You look at that juicy +14 saves bonus and dodge ac as if its objectively better than having an extra school or an extra epic spell. With the price-tag in mind, it isnt.

[Aren]

I’m not trying to stir up anything, but here’s an observation. Most of all these “powerful dips” are made possible due to the UMD / Lore changes, as everyone can take lore and gear lore. It was an inevitability.

[AstralUniverse]

I’m not trying to stir up anything, but here’s an observation. Most of all these “powerful dips” are made possible due to the UMD / Lore changes, as everyone can take lore and gear lore. It was an inevitability.

Unless it is some kind of an elaborate trick to get this thread locked, please dont.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

maybe cap div grace and div might/shield duration and potency to 3xDiv level

This wouldnt affect majority paladin or bg

Div dips would be capped at 9 uni/ac/damage

Sorcadins would be hit the most, with some losses to their uni/ac, or to cl. A 26/4 would stop at 12, vs 14. A 27/3 would stop at 9 (but still be able to cap dodge ac if they take ema).

Not sure if this is enough tho. Alternative is make div grace require 5 levels, like Harper paragon. Problem is, that makes these dips substantially worse than paragon. I think paragon should lose some of its free feats; maybe just make it give power attack for free at lvl 1.

Making it take 5 levels would definitely hit sorcadins, as they would lose their 26 bonus feat and have to take a hit to their cl if they wanted the saves (note I am NOT saying to give turn undead at lvl 5 paladin, just div grace).

Bardadins would lose a feat, as they would have to go 20/5/5 instead of 21/6/3.

Div rogues would lose a feat, having to go 19/6/5

Brycer would take a hit, having to go 22/5/3 (and lose the 23 fighter ab, which is a big ouch)

Div archers would lose a feat, having to go 22/5/3 instead of 23/4/3 or 21/6/3

Just some ideas

Are sorcadins really that good you suggest to nerf all these awesome, popular, versatile and fun and BALANCED builds? I havent seen a sorcadin for 3-4 years and the last one I remember got banned (or otherwise punished and left willingly maybe) so I dunno. Maybe you're right, but also maybe you're being effected by the opinions on these forums too much? Saying this with upmost respect of course.

talk to all the wizards players in the build community, they do it for the cookies, not for ultimate PvP power. They often say over and over that sorcerers are better for PvP. Its just that wizards are so powerful that one doesnt need to be a sorceror to begin with, the same goes with Sorcadin to an extent. You have so much power, that if you know what you are doing, you have more than enough power with other dips. The paladin/blackgaurd dip is still the most powerful dip by a long shot though, though less appealing to those who are more focused on having more epic spell focus feats with the ranger dip.

That being said, a sorcadin also has to waste an epic feat on divine shield, so in fairness to the argument of not changing anything, a sorcadin efffectively loses out on 2 epic feats compared to ranger. Its truly harpers that are the true villian.

[Arigard]

I'm not too sure why there is so much straw-manning in this thread. No-one is suggesting 3 class dips go, most are just for a scaling of benefits so it is consistent across the board and makes sense compared to how 90% of class mechanics work when you dip and already scale. If anything scaling monk/bg/pally dips would open up more potential to cross class because everyone is not looking at their build right from the start thinking "Well if i don't do this i'm going to be completely worthless compared to the key dip variants".

If Monk/Blackguard scaled based on level (i.e turn undead uses, max wisdom AC and APR), the biggest hit would be the biggest offenders of the dips, those classes that have their majority stat cha/wis dumped right into the majority stat of the dip class. These are class combinations like sorceror, zen archery healer/cleric, warlock, druids etc that already get huge bonuses that put them massively ahead of mundane classes in terms of power. Summons, lvl 9 spells, epic spells, dispel advantage over mundanes, CL dispel advantages over mundanes (especially now), access to extended haste etc. Then throw on top of that an extra potential +15-14 bonuses from a 3 level dip and you have something that laughs at the majority of mundane classes across the board in a power sense.

If you scaled monk dips to maximum AC by level, most of these 3 dip builds would lose 5-6 ac, which would put them in line (without going into expertise) with most mundane build ac out there in the world, except for pure monk classes & epic dodge characters & would balance savings throws a little more so that you don't suddenly get +15 uni saves across the board one day when you wake up, on top of also having spellcraft.

A scaled to level monk/bg/pally dip is still -a very good dip for three levels-. You're still getting in the case of monk:

evasion, deflect arrows, 3 ac, tumble, discipline and access to other monk skills (hide/ms/listen etc).

Blackguard/paladin:

Would still give you +3 uni saves, access to divine shield/might for 3 minutes per day, discipline etc.

These are still amazing options compared to the other dips out there and in terms of balancing high level caster vs mundane it would start to level out the playing field a little in terms of achievable AC. Spellcasters could still dip to get crazy stupid cross class bonuses, but instead of getting it for effectively free they'd actually need to compromise on certain aspects of their spellcasting. If they wanted to dip further into these classes, they would need to start making decisions and sacrifices rather than just dropping monk, or paladin/bg into every build as standard without a thought because it's based on their prime stat anyway.

Mundanes on the other hand would have more freedom to dip further because they are not so tied to things like epic feats, CL, and higher level spell-caster abilities and their ability to do so vs caster classes would reign in the gaping power gap that currently exists between mundanes and spell-casters slightly.

[Kenji]

Of course, the classes I vehemently believe that should be roleplayed to the highest standard, even if they're only dip classes, are the following:
Paladin, Blackguard, and any of the PrC (Pale Master, Harper, etc.).

I personally still am not certain about monks and how their dips should be treated as.

Maybe to put the point another way, classes that require alignment restrictions require you to roleplay that alignment. If you're not playing the alignment on your character's sheet then you're not staying in character. So if you dip monk, which requires a lawful alignment, and yet run around starting fights, breaking oaths, and stirring up discord, then you're probably not staying in character.

I meant to reply to this earlier, but not sure why it slipped my mind.

While alignment often serves as a guideline and is not an absolute on how a character would behave, alignment should always be taken into consideration when making IC choices, that I can agree on.

The uncertainty I have is more in line of what the monk dip would entail in terms of RP, and where did it come from, something similar to:
1. Is the character from some kind of monastic order? (And then they left early in their training or got booted out somehow?)
2. Did the character learn its technique from somewhere? From some kind of hermit that taught the character the basics somehow?

Anyone can fight with their fists or any of the monk weapons, but not everyone can use those weapons with the same efficiency as the "monks".

[Xerah]

Monk and paladin order certainly work a lot better when multiclassing can be restricted in as it can be in PNP (it could here, but it's a lot of extra work to set up). It's a shame that people don't take those more seriously.

[Void]

Monk and paladin order certainly work a lot better when multiclassing can be restricted in as it can be in PNP (it could here, but it's a lot of extra work to set up). It's a shame that people don't take those more seriously.

That kind of restriction would be interesting to see, actually.

ike a member of any other class, a monk may be a multiclass character, but multiclass monks face a special restriction. A monk who gains a new class or (if already multiclass) raises another class by a level may never again raise her monk level, though she retains all her monk abilities.

I believe arelith already has "level up script" that checks build validity and enforces 3 level rule, so maybe it would be not that much work to extend it.

[Arigard]

Monk and paladin order certainly work a lot better when multiclassing can be restricted in as it can be in PNP (it could here, but it's a lot of extra work to set up). It's a shame that people don't take those more seriously.

That kind of restriction would be interesting to see, actually.

ike a member of any other class, a monk may be a multiclass character, but multiclass monks face a special restriction. A monk who gains a new class or (if already multiclass) raises another class by a level may never again raise her monk level, though she retains all her monk abilities.

I believe arelith already has "level up script" that checks build validity and enforces 3 level rule, so maybe it would be not that much work to extend it.

This wouldn't really help balance vs the power of dips and would only really hurt classes that aren't dipping considering most monk dips happen 27-29 with final level being the core class/skill class level.

[Zavandar]

Maybe you're right, but also maybe you're being effected by the opinions on these forums too much?

lol, me?

no, I've known for a long time that sorcadin us a strong build. I've helped people make them (and recently), so there's more out there than people think

I also think they're incredibly boring to play, which might be why you dont see so many

Just because a build isnt seen often doesn't mean it's weak.

even with moving div grace to lvl 5, a 27/3 sorcadin would be fine. It's not like you have to choose between gearing saves and charisma, like you do with other div dips. Con, cha, saves, skills. Easy

[Archnon]

Monk and paladin order certainly work a lot better when multiclassing can be restricted in as it can be in PNP (it could here, but it's a lot of extra work to set up). It's a shame that people don't take those more seriously.

That kind of restriction would be interesting to see, actually.

ike a member of any other class, a monk may be a multiclass character, but multiclass monks face a special restriction. A monk who gains a new class or (if already multiclass) raises another class by a level may never again raise her monk level, though she retains all her monk abilities.

I believe arelith already has "level up script" that checks build validity and enforces 3 level rule, so maybe it would be not that much work to extend it.

This wouldn't really help balance vs the power of dips and would only really hurt classes that aren't dipping considering most monk dips happen 27-29 with final level being the core class/skill class level.

One of the lore junkies can correct me but most monk orders don't let you dip, except in a specific class. Basically, forcing you to keep the majority of your levels in the monk class to benefit from the monk abilities. This could be done with many of the holy orders but it would restrict build variety.

It would be better just to make all abilities that we can, that are granted by a specific class automatically and can't be obtained via a general feat, make them scale with levels in that class. Nice, simple, elegant.

[Ork]

Multiclass paladin/monk order restrictions were removed from all following editions for a reason.

[Cataclysm of Iron]

Multiclass paladin/monk order restrictions were removed from all following editions for a reason.

Unless you're going to discuss that reason and relate it to Arelith, I'm not sure I see what the relevance of that is?

[AstralUniverse]

Maybe you're right, but also maybe you're being effected by the opinions on these forums too much?

lol, me?

no, I've known for a long time that sorcadin us a strong build. I've helped people make them (and recently), so there's more out there than people think

I also think they're incredibly boring to play, which might be why you dont see so many

Just because a build isnt seen often doesn't mean it's weak.

even with moving div grace to lvl 5, a 27/3 sorcadin would be fine. It's not like you have to choose between gearing saves and charisma, like you do with other div dips. Con, cha, saves, skills. Easy

Exactly. It doesnt really nerf sorcs all that much. It hurts the other paladin dip builds more. Those builds already make decent sacrifices for it and dont come out game breaking like, supposedly, the sorcadin that is also boring to play, with barely any schools selection. I dont like this idea at all.

Your idea to cap at div lvl x3 is less game changing and doesnt really nerf anyone except sorcadins. If something needs to be done, I'd start there and probably leave it there.

[Ork]

Multiclass paladin/monk order restrictions were removed from all following editions for a reason.

Unless you're going to discuss that reason and relate it to Arelith, I'm not sure I see what the relevance of that is?

About the same relevance in discussing multiclass restrictions.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Multiclass paladin/monk order restrictions were removed from all following editions for a reason.

Unless you're going to discuss that reason and relate it to Arelith, I'm not sure I see what the relevance of that is?

About the same relevance in discussing multiclass restrictions.

They were removed for the sake of making gameplay and character building easier for the masses, an overall design decision that permeates every aspect of 5e (not that I'm against this, but I refuse to take seriously any argument that doesn't acknowledge that 5e is simplified for broader appeal and easier immersion).

However, while mechanically I adore what I've experienced of 5e so far, I do believe there are lore changes that aren't as interesting. I think having RP restrictions on certain classes (and races, for example, outsider or monstrous alignments) adds depth and flavor to the world via a sense of consistency.

I also firmly believe paladins and monks were such powerful classes in their own right with abilities that far outreach some other classes specifically because of these restrictions- tempt the players with the greatest power to overreact in a moment of anger, and watch a story-line involving a fall from grace unfold organically. With Great Power, and all that.

I personally feel a lot of atmospheric flavor is lost that could otherwise be prevalent in the world when people ignore the divine obligations on their character sheet. Plenty of paladin orders can multiclass, but there are implications and cultural/religious/traditional doctrines surrounding it that can be used to enhance the narrative. Same for monks.

[Ork]

I personally feel a lot of atmospheric flavor is lost that could otherwise be prevalent in the world when people ignore the divine obligations on their character sheet. Plenty of paladin orders can multiclass, but there are implications and cultural/religious/traditional doctrines surrounding it that can be used to enhance the narrative. Same for monks.

There is simply not enough reason for these implications as cited in 3.5. A lot of these restrictions are briefly mentioned, but nothing beyond. For instance, Shar's monks can multiclass freely as sorceres - but why? These class combinations have nothing to offer one another, and there's very little cultural/religious/traditional backing to why this is the only class her monks can multiclass into. In the same way as if you limited domains of clerics, you would find that there will be an overpopulation of monk/paladin worshipers, and those worshipers would directly align with the mechanical benefit therein.

Arelith use to HIGHLY encourage clerics to take domains associated with their deity, and we had a whole lot of priests of Akadi roaming around.