Shaman Feedback

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Shaman 27/Monk 3 only gets about 55 ac(10 + 6 tumble + 6 dex mod + 14 wis mod + 1 boots + 4 shield potion + 5 barkskin + 4 haste + 1 mage armor pot + 1 shield skleen +3 shirt = 55), which is on the high end for things like arcanists but not really absurd levels, at least in my opinion - especially when it relies on two short-duration potions and a skleen.


For reference: Favored Soul 27/Paladin (or Whatever) 3 gets 67 AC (10 base 3 tumble 1 dex mod 8 Fullplate 5 magic vestment 3 Tower Shield 5 magic vestment 5 shield of faith 4 barkskin 4 haste 1 boots 14 divine shield 1 mage armor = 67) if built as a caster. If built as a melee character, they've got (probably) 64 but expertise/improved expertise ontop of that, and armor skin is less of a stretch on a melee shell than on a caster shell.

I thought favoured souls cant use the divine shield/power feats.

They can't, but the point of comparison was "Why is Favored Soul blocked from using divine shield when shaman isn't blocked from monk and is also op?".

I think would be very shaman like to be able to cast raise dead and would be a cool trick druids can't do.

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=27941&start=25#p221554

Cool!

I imagine dipping into monk as shaman would be akin to clerics dipping into monks, you have to give up on fullplate+ tower shield.

It still does feel odd cutting off favoured souls from the divine feats, but I kind of get why.

[Anime Sword Fighter]

I like the idea of your spirit companion being out giving some kind of major buff to you, rather than AOE. Maybe the amount of whatever numbers it needs to switch to melee? Normally they would act as a caster, but with the companion out whatever buff it gives gives them that melee capability.

On a related note, it's my dirty secret fantasy to have Conjured Weapons for shamans that would last rounds (to bar cheese strats by requiring CL to be used effectively) and be self-cast only to make shamans passable PvM meleers or less reliant on ammo, respectively.

i would love if you could pick between a Conjured Spirit that augments your casting while it's out or a Conjured Weapon that gives you boosts to melee, similar to Tenser's

[Opustus]

That'd be kewl. Also, Tenser's wouldn't be bad either, especially because a single cast of Owl's Insight would ensure you don't strip your bonus spells from the modified Wis modifier. Just for example, a Tenser at Shaman27 would be
BAB20 + sword3 + Str10 + tenser13
=46 with 5 APR with 3 attacks at full 46 AB

[Mythic]

The Spell-list for shaman is brilliant, But I feel like it's slightly lacking in some thematic spells


Necromancer-Shaman Spells

Love the idea of Necro-Shaman, Could also see it possibly being able to go into Palemaster IF there was some continued scaling

As far as the Necro-Spells that Shaman gets, I'm super glad there's a reason to take and use the under-utilized necro-druid spells ala Healing Sting and infestation of maggots. Tier 1-9 I'm going to make a few suggestions for spells to be added? so if one wanted to go very heavy on the Necro-Death Shaman, they've got some different options.

Circles 0-9, With the exception of Harm, adding the Inflict Wounds line of spells would be thematically nice, As they do already get the Cure wounds line of spells.

Circle 1 - Scare and Ray of enfeeblement,
Circle 2 - Ghoul Touch
Circle 3 - Wouldent add more here, this has some great options in already
Circle 4 - Negative Energy Burst, Finger of Agony (arelith spell)
Circle 5 - Negative Energy Protection
Circle 6 - Ernevation and Kyristan's Malevolent Tentacles (arelith spell)
Circle 7 - I'd probably move control undead to this tier, Which is already full of nice spells to make it a harder-pickup when you already have 4-5 great spells you want.
Circle 8 - Destruction, And move Control down one tier from this
Circle 9 - Currently has no Necromancy spells, And whilst there's not many in this tier anyway, I'd say Energy Drain would be thematic. And Avascular Mass (Arelith spell) here

I feel that these would fill out the Shaman's spell-book with more necromancy options, whilst also not breaking how strong a necro-shammy would be.

For the whole Elemental-Shaman, Having no Flame weapon or Darkfire is rough but otherwise an Evocation Shaman seems great (Barring the whole DC spells thing)

Overall I'd say playing an Evocation-Shaman would be a lot of fun, as they get some of the best evocation spells from both arcane and divine

The Tribal-Barb Shaman, Is a weird spot, As on one hand, with Elemental Swarm and Necro-spells giving multiple summons as-is, It's hard to justify having full-level tribals, but 2/3 level tribals fall so short in what's needed for high-level content, They're definitely more a thematic RP choice than an actual boon. Though during leveling I can see them being strong if taken early enough

The "Combat-Shaman" I cant see being terribly strong at all, They have a lot of defensive buffs, but none which actually boost their AB or Damage, which they'll lack. Their Barb-Rage would be a good get out of jail card, with its temporary HP and speed bonus

I do like that they feel thematically brilliant, I hope the class gets built-upon more by release, So we dont get a sub-par ish Summoner type class, The inclusion of a Spirit-Guide, Or a Choice of them as you level, Would be brilliant.

I could see there being three "Paths" for Shamans, when it comes to Spirit-Guides, Possibly adding an option for a "new" spirit you can call (Only having 1-3 out at a time, Replacing summons or henchman slots temporarily on cooldowns, The amount scaling as you level shaman)

Say at level 3 you pick the first "Spirit" you can call, Elemental, Primal or Death spirits, With Elemental giving allies nearby 1d4 ele damage on their attacks, or a + DC to Evocation spells, Primal giving +1 AC, scaling, Death giving minor vamp-regen like 1 point early

A whole slew of potential spirits could be added, one weak one at 3, middle tiers at 12, high at 20 and "Ancient" spirits at 27

Giving scaling buffs, I'd not want to see + AB, But Defensive? bonus damage? temporary HP and things like that whilst in a Spirits Aura, Or just make it one spirit, and add selectable bonus-feats that give it new properties.

Shaman's awesome, It's a little under-par with its Ab and potential AC, it feels like it's meant to be a barbarian-esque druidic-spellsword, But going Spirit-Shaman heavy seems like a more interesting option

Either way, Love it, as-is or if it's changed

[Jagel]

If offensive shaman is supposed to be a thing a weapon buff spell like darkfire, blade thirst etc might be a good start

[Xerah]

Some feedback:

I don't think shamans need the extra spell per level. There are hard choices and they should be hard. (this would apply to favoured souls as well)

I also think the divination focus should be cut even though I pushed for it initially. Given that they are going to get this spirit companion, I don't think they need these free feats either. It has the side effect of making scry too common as well.

Otherwise, it looks really cool and looking forward to spirit part.

[Jagel]

Start by cutting it down to only getting sf: divination for free?

[Hunter548]

1) I'm more mixed on the extra slot per level. On some levels it helps a lot in terms of viability (5, 7, and 8 all come to mind). Unlike sorcerers, most of their useful spells are concentrated together. You still end up making hard choices with the extra spells/day. For example: My current theory-crafting spell list can't fit heal, raise dead, true seeing, chain lightning, energy buffer or several other spells I'd consider pretty important. 9th level is the only level where I get everything I want, and that's solely a consequence of planning for necromancy summons over conjuration summons (If you're planning for conjuration summons, you'll want one or two spells I didn't take at 9th level). The extra spells/level helps them keep a good variety of offensive options to make up for not having one as good as IGMS (Sorcerers), and not having melee/shapeshifting to fall back on (Druids, Clerics, FS).

2) I take the opposite view of the spirit companion: I'd much rather see them keep divination focuses and not get this spirit buff totem. Divination focuses are very thematic (Think of every soothsayer and oracle trope in various media) while the spirit totem has serious potential for balance concerns (+3AB/AC is a very large shift). The totem also seems like it will mostly just be a boring ball of stat-boosting for the party: +3 ab/ac is very powerful, but it's not terribly interesting. It doesn't change anything about how shaman or their party might play. Free GSF divination meanwhile has smaller mechanical implications, but does open up some spells that are typically uncommon if the shaman chooses to invest another feat into the ESF, and opens up playing with the deck of stars/attunements at minimum, for RP purposes. Scry being common doesn't particularly scare me with how common various methods of defeating it are, and it'd be refreshing to see it as something other than the almost sole demesne of wizards who have feats to spare.

2a) If the spirit companion stays in as described, it's also going to be a fairly large QOL problem. Anyone who's tried to play with necromancy summons and a familiar at the same time can attest that managing both 1) a group of combat summons and 2) a summon you really want to keep out of (melee) combat is extremely difficult and frustrating. You end up either letting the combat summons run on vanilla AI (Which is terrible), letting the familiar go into melee with the rest of the summons (And get killed very swiftly) or just unsummoning the familiar.


As Shaman stands right now, I think it's a very fun class without being a game-breaker; You're easier to kill than a normal wizard or sorcerer, and lack the same widely applicable spellbook. However, you have a few tricks up your sleeve to make up for that and a couple of extremely strong spells if you choose to capitalize on them. You're largely a summon factory (But not nearly as tanky as a PM, so you can't play passively) and use your spells to confirm kills an execute opponents after your summons soften them up slightly.

My primary balance areas of concern for the class right now are the spirit companion potentially enabling group PvP in unhealthy ways (Stacking lots of support builds around a dangerous target like a barb/wm or whatever) and the combination of tribal barbarians/vampires or elementals. As it stands right now, you can have both the tribal barbarians and your summons of choice out at the same time - and the tribals aren't slouches after you hit them with an AoV/Maximized Bulls.

[magistrasa]

I feel like this class opens up a ton of roleplay opportunities and I'm really excited to see the sort of character concepts it enables going forward. The world will, without a doubt, be thoroughly enriched by the presence of the Shaman. Though, to contradict that excitement, I do worry that Shamans themselves are lacking enrichment from their class. A druid without wildshape is like toast without butter. We'll see what happens with the Spirit Guardian's addition of course, but as it exists now, it really doesn't stand well on its own. The Barbarian synergy is really quite interesting, but what's a caster-oriented Shaman to do with themselves?

Semi-relatedly, but towards a different point - I love the voodoo-cursing hex-binding Witch Doctor archetype in any and all its forms. I think the dark magic bent that the Shaman class has is great. Although, given the limitations of its spell list, perhaps we could push it further? Darkness and Shadow Shield seem like they'd be pretty thematic for the Witch Doctor vibe. Along with most of Mythic's recommendations (I'm not sure they necessarily need all those spells but if they got half of them, that'd be awesome).

All-in-all, I can't wait for this to go live. My family tree has quite a few real-life shamans and witch doctors and travelling medicine men, and I'm looking forward to channeling the spirits of my ancestors while I play my future shaman character.

[garrbear758]

It didn't make it in the update notes, but shaman was given war cry as a spell. The spirit may happen eventually, but it probably won't be in the near future.

[Kuma]

It didn't make it in the update notes, but shaman was given war cry as a spell. The spirit may happen eventually, but it probably won't be in the near future.

rip gw1 ritualist

[TimeAdept]

Saddened-Was-Kuma

[Aardra]

Do Shaman get animal language?

[garrbear758]

Do Shaman get animal language?

No

[Purplemyst]

I guess this is more of a suggestion to add a cookie to the shamans.

Skeleton Key:

The shaman uses the finger bone of their foes to open chests/remove traps.

They receive 1 use at 10, 20 and 30 per rest.

[magistrasa]

The fact that Shaman can't use any scrolls at the moment is kind of a bummer, but it does inspire an idea:

Shamans are commonly associated with magical items, like voodoo dolls or bone charms and so on. To maybe try and compliment that theme, what if they got Craft Wand for free? High level shaman characters would then be able to break into the dweomercrafting business, which is similarly fitting for their traditional theme. (If you really wanted to be a maniac, some class ability that functions like a maybe less potent Craft Wand but they can put it on any standard 1 or 2 square inventory item would blow my mind.)

Talking with another shaman got us thinking about the "spiritual" aesthetic of the class, and an idea came up regarding the fact that they seem to be a very summon-focused caster: What if everything they summoned was under the effect of ethereal or ghostly visage (maybe upgrading as they level up)? It would lend to the idea that they call upon spirits to fight alongside them, and it'd look pretty darn neat. At the very least, a shaman should be able to cast those spells for themself!

All-in-all, messing around with the class in-module and seeing how others are building the class solidifies my impression that it's a limping druid whose crutch is mostly made of tribal barbarians. It could stand to get a LOT of cookies and still not reach the bar set by just about every other class. While it's an awesome start to what I'm certain is going to become one of my favorite classes, it really just doesn't feel like it has its "thing" yet.

[Mythic]

Shaman is less a limping druid, More like the spellcasting varient, Think spellsword vs Divine dip Sorc

I've found it's strongest when going near-pure Shaman, and dipping less into Barb, and instead into Monk due to the high AC you can have at all times whilst buffed.

With focusing on one summon (Instead of say undead or swarm) You end up being able to cast a lot, and I mean a lot of great CC and Damaging spells. Their PvE will shine cos' they're a divine caster with a ton of summons accessed, and buffs for them. In PvP they're basically a CC Sorcerer without a no-save IGMS to spam

They arent weak at all, Especially if you go for multiple epic spell focuses, I could pick up Conj, Trans, evoke and Divin, and still fit 2 epic spells going pure, But only 1 dipping monk.

Darn great class all things considered

[magistrasa]

It's the caster variant of a full caster class, but doesn't get that same class's core features.
It's better to dip into monk instead of Barb for defenses, which argues that the Barb synergy is a trap.
It options are compared to spellsword or Div-dip sorc, while lacking the robust spell list that enables both offensive and defensive playstyles within those classes alone.

If it's got any power, that's simply because casters in general are powerful on the server. I'm not arguing against that fact. Yes, you're right, there's plenty of CC and damage that a Shaman can dish out next to a good summon. But any other caster class can do that and do it better.

Every other caster class has its "thing." Clerics have their domains. Wizards have their spellbook. Sorcerers have their spell slots. Spellsword has their gish imbues. Druids have their wild shape. Even Favored Soul kinda has their "thing" in the form of energy resistances, and the cleric spell list highly enables the "divine gish" playstyle without relegating the Favored Soul to that playstyle alone. Shaman is a competent class, yes, but it simply doesn't have its "thing" yet. And I am just so frickin' excited to see how it evolves into its role because I know that this class is gonna be awesome.

[Cataclysm of Iron]

Talking with another shaman got us thinking about the "spiritual" aesthetic of the class, and an idea came up regarding the fact that they seem to be a very summon-focused caster: What if everything they summoned was under the effect of ethereal or ghostly visage (maybe upgrading as they level up)? It would lend to the idea that they call upon spirits to fight alongside them, and it'd look pretty darn neat. At the very least, a shaman should be able to cast those spells for themself!

This is an extremely cool idea.

[CosmicOrderV]

The ghostly visage / ethereal visage thing is dope. Coupled with the Tribal Barbarian, it could look like you're literally summoning the spirits of your ancestors/tribe.

The class so far is very underwhelming compared to Druid, though. If people think the Tribal Barbarian is a concern, just make it replace summons, instead of stacking. Doesn't seem to make much sense neutering the base class because it synergizes well elsewhere. Tweak the synergy, not the entire class.



Buzzwords: Witch Doctor. Medium. Voodoo. Shaman. Oracle. Medicine Man.

Being of nature, in nature, and coercing it to your own ends. It's somewhere between a cleric and a druid, yeah? Totally hearkening back to animist cultures, in which one beseeches, communes, or otherwise interacts with the natural spirits, manipulating them in a way that's vaguely divine, but not beholden to god(s).

Curse, and arelith custom curse related spells, really ought to be here. Remove Curse as well, for that matter. By adding more hex-curse like spells this class could really become colorful, and blossom into its narrative niche. Several other necromancy spells as well. Just watching the 'Shaman' and 'Witch Doctor' Xverts on Skal, they cast Bane, Bless, Inflict Wounds, Blindness/Deafness, and one of the negative energy ray/beams (I don't remember which one).

For that matter, both Druid and Shaman should really have the Inflict Wounds, line of spells. Cure wounds -> Heal. It checks out. They look like natural building blocks of each other--higher tiers of the same premise. Yet for some reason, there's no Inflict Wounds, it just jumps straight into Harm. That's sorta weird and inconsistent.

Also, I don't know which one, but Shaman totally should get one of the weapon imbue spells. I would say ideally, not GMW, but maybe something like Flame Weapon or Blade Thirst. Keep it primal!

Edit: Might be cool to see them get Wounding Whispers. Whispers of the dead/spirits/ancestors hassling those who damage.

Additional Edit Ideas:

• Armor AC buff from spirit guide, same as what Magic Vestment does. Similar to cleric function here, no spell slot cost, but at the trade of needing proximity, your buff-bot can die, and it would never work on shields.
• If no scrolls are to be tagged as Shaman, perhaps give the Spirit Guide a proximal bonus to Lore, when the Shaman is standing near it. Getting sort of spiritual guidance from beyond the veil. Now able to use scrolls.

[Hinty]

So, right now Shaman is just a Caster Druid that can't shape shift and has less flexibility in spells.

The only thing that makes them stand out is their Rage synergy and even that is a little lackluster to me.

My personal quick and nasty fix would be, First, Rage as a class ability, no need to cross class Barb. Second, give them the option of taking the Tribal warriors as a path, but at the cost of them being the only summons you get. No Summon creature spells, no Animate/Create undead etc.
You can be a shaman with summon spells, or a Tribal shaman with Tribal warriors but no summoned critters.

Ban the Monk/Shaman cross class (especially if you do give them Rage. Monks with Rage? Ouch) but not just because of the powergamy possibilities, Monks are a class Based around a borderline obsessive focus upon the self and personal understanding. Shaman are all about focus and understanding of the wider world around them. It is two very different and diametrically opposed approaches.
I suppose you could just say no more lawful Shaman, I mean, why should Shamans be allowed to be lawful if Barbarians can't?


Of course, you instead of doubling down on the rage, you could double down on the summoner side. Perhaps let them have two summon spells active at the same time, or alternatively, their summon spells summon two weaker creatures, so rather than summon II calling 1 boar, they get two badgers.


Also, maybe give them the Totem path in the same way Rangers get it? No stat or skill boosts, but thematic skins for their summons.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I do think we have to be careful that Shaman doesn't fall into any cultural traps or stereotypes. We might think Shamans are "nature" casters, but really they can occupy a wide-range of interpretative and religious and spiritual leaders within communities.

I don't even want to say in broad strokes there are commonalities, but I do have a few suggestions:

- Give them access to Spot and Listen.
- Allow them to do stuff with -ritual.
- Allow them to do stuff with both sides of -balance (the identification, and the placation)
- Give them access to Ghostly Visage, and Ethereal Visage. In general, while Arelith doesn't have the Ethereal Plane at all, it would be cool if some of the Shaman was rooted in interplanar stuff. A kind of nod to "fever dreams", "dreamscapes", "vision journeys", etc. I also think giving them Invisibility and Improved Invisibility would be cool.
- I'd also be tempted to give them the whole Shade line of spells, but I worry that might overlap with Shadow Mage too much.

I think the focuses on Divination might be misplaced. Obfuscation could be as important to a Shaman as revelation. There's also a kind of benevolence attached to "truth seeking" whereas a Shaman could be all about curses and deception.

If anything, just give them the whole "Attunement" thing for free.

[Hinty]

Inclined to agree on the Divination thing.

Sure, many Shaman tropes involve divination, but not all, if you want to play a divination shaman you can choose the foci.

Perhaps this could be a path option. Choose a school to get free Foci in as you progress. Maybe could throw in +1 caster level for the chosen school too or some other flavour based bonus. Unique spells added to the list maybe, or an Infini cast spell much like Wiz/ Sorcs get.

[xanrael]

Probably my biggest reason to be excited for shaman is the openness to RP possibilities unlike druid. I'd really rather not see alignment or multiclass restrictions. Even with multiclassing I'd put them on the lower end of potential caster AC.

I like the cosmetic options, and I'd probably open it up to a path choice. Ranger style totem (cosmetic change to summons only), normal (how it looks now), and visage (the suggested option).

[magistrasa]

I feel like Divination focii fits almost all forms of the shaman aesthetic, so I would be disappointed if it were rejected due to people thinking it had thematic inconsistency. Taking divination focii is a sacrifice, no matter what class you are. It's objectively the worst spell school by any metric, and -scry is similarly one of the more disappointing special abilities one can have. So with it having no value in powergaming and -scry not being terribly special, all divination focii benefits is roleplay. The shaman class doesn't have the feat flexibility to take divination for the roleplay opportunities it provides, despite the fact that supernatural sight and spiritual mediation are consistently core elements of the shaman aesthetic.

With regards to alignment restriction, I'm on the fence. On one hand, I value flexibility in class concepts so that there's freedom in characterization of those concepts. On the other hand, too much flexibility befuddles the meaning of what a class is or what it does. Then that leads to inconsistent roleplay, as the same idea represents something different to everyone, and by consequence it doesn't end up meaning anything. Which is already kind of an issue for the shaman. Take its description, for instance:

Shamans are divine spellcasters who draw upon primal forces to power their spells. These forces can range from spirits, tribal deities, or even the planes themselves. Their relationship with their source can also vary widely, from either a willing bond with the source to a parasitic relationship, where the Shaman bends its source to do their bidding. While initially they may be mistaken for a druid, the Shaman lacks the druid’s bond with nature and their strict adherence to its balance. The role of a Shaman can also vary by community: some are direct leaders of a tribe or village, some are spiritual leaders, and some are simply 'wise folk' sought out for guidance. Shamans can also take the role of a healer or witch doctor for their community, both feared and respected for their magical prowess.

Where does their power come from? Anywhere!
What is their relationship with that power? Anything!
What is their role in society? Everything!
How does society regard them? Whatever!

The inconsistency here is now showing up in this very feedback thread, where different people are giving contradictory suggestions for the class depending on their interpretation of the loose outline we're given. Maybe, with that being the case, it really is worth implementing some hard borders on the concept, and better define what it is or is not. The line in the description that says, "the Shaman lacks the druid’s bond with nature and their strict adherence to its balance," is the most strongly worded phrase in its definition, and does kinda suggest to me an inherent lawlessness in their practice. So, perhaps a non-Lawful alignment restriction really is a good idea.

EDIT: AND ONE MORE THING
Suggesting paths as a cure-all for these inconsistent ideas simply does not work. Not only is it a hassle to create these paths, but - and I could be wrong about this (devs are free to publicly crucify me if I am) - paths are an outdated form of class modification that the devs don't want to keep putting into the game when new classes are a much more viable long-term option. I believe Irongron said at one point that he wants to see some paths phased out over time and replaced by free-standing classes. So throwing all the different themes into different paths might just be a pipe dream here.