Cleric Spells and Palemasters

[Apothys]

Hello.

Playing a palemaster ive come to the realisation that there are two spells I have a very hard time removing from any player foe i may come across.

Deathward and Undeaths Eternal Foe.

These spells are not on the spell breach list according to standard wikis. These cleric spells basically nerf the hell out of a full palemaster, without him being able to breach them away.

Given the Palemasters low casting level for dispelling, his chances of using standard dispels to try this is also mostly non existent, unless im calculating it wrong?

I want to propose these spells be added to the Spell Breach list if at all possible? Or perhaps ive missed something im not aware off?

Thanks for reading.

[Void]

Hello.

Playing a palemaster ive come to the realisation that there are two spells I have a very hard time removing from any player foe i may come across.

Deathward and Undeaths Eternal Foe.

These spells are not on the spell breach list according to standard wikis. These cleric spells basically nerf the hell out of a full palemaster, without him being able to breach them away.

Given the Palemasters low casting level for dispelling, his chances of using standard dispels to try this is also mostly non existent, unless im calculating it wrong?

I want to propose these spells be added to the Spell Breach list if at all possible? Or perhaps ive missed something im not aware off?

Thanks for reading.

I think it is supposed to work this way. Everything has a counter, and that's the counter for a palemaster. Deathward also does not prevent from being physically murdered by vampires.

[Apothys]

Easy counter to Undead is Halt Undead followed by Banishment, the saves on the undead are not enough to give them a real fighting chance as they dont increase like other epic casters summons do.

It just feels like a palemaster has no option but to sit there weeping as all his power he has accumulated is either ignored, his summons ripped from his control and banished and all the while he has to jump through a whole bunch of rings to get any of his spells to work and then there is a number of them that simply block him entirely. Doesnt this seem wrong?

[Drowboy]

I mean, in exchange for ac, hp, immunities, free summons, free epic feats, and several enhanced spells? Yeah. Seems fair. You get those things with the knowledge your regular casting is behind a normal wizard. That's the class.

[Void]

Easy counter to Undead is Halt Undead followed by Banishment, the saves on the undead are not enough to give them a real fighting chance as they dont increase like other epic casters summons do.

It just feels like a palemaster has no option but to sit there weeping as all his power he has accumulated is either ignored, his summons ripped from his control and banished and all the while he has to jump through a whole bunch of rings to get any of his spells to work and then there is a number of them that simply block him entirely. Doesnt this seem wrong?

One thing that feels wrong is that banishment is supposed to work on outsiders only and shouldn't affect undead. I mean, in PnP that's how things work - necromancy is not conjuration. Then again, in pnp animate dead has no limit on number of spawns and at the same time does not place them under your control.

Aside from that, no, it doesn't feel wrong. There's always a counter.
For example, a WM might meet crit immune opponent, rogue might meet sneak attack immune opponent, and a normal mage can run into something that is completely immune to magic. It is business as usual.

[Apothys]

Easy counter to Undead is Halt Undead followed by Banishment, the saves on the undead are not enough to give them a real fighting chance as they dont increase like other epic casters summons do.

It just feels like a palemaster has no option but to sit there weeping as all his power he has accumulated is either ignored, his summons ripped from his control and banished and all the while he has to jump through a whole bunch of rings to get any of his spells to work and then there is a number of them that simply block him entirely. Doesnt this seem wrong?

One thing that feels wrong is that banishment is supposed to work on outsiders only and shouldn't affect undead. I mean, in PnP that's how things work - necromancy is not conjuration. Then again, in pnp animate dead has no limit on number of spawns and at the same time does not place them under your control.

Aside from that, no, it doesn't feel wrong. There's always a counter.
For example, a WM might meet crit immune opponent, rogue might meet sneak attack immune opponent, and a normal mage can run into something that is completely immune to magic. It is business as usual.

Yeah you make a good point. Thank you

[Shadowy Reality]

You are entirely correct. You are not supposed to remove them, you have to play around them. Energy Drain and Enervation still work if the target only has Death Ward and not Negative Energy Protection. Undeaths Eternal Foe I wouldnt worry too much, it is a round/level spell, you can wait it out if that is the only thing blocking you.

To be honest, asides from Horrid Wilting Necromancy has always been a terrible school. This is why caster PM was never that good. You can survive very well, but when it comes to killing anything, it is summons or the usual Mage stuff. And as you mentioned, the summons are very fallible.

When I played mine I used mostly the undead summons, cloudkill and IGMS, and if that failed, you run, because you are not killing anyone that day. You can probably make something work if you go Evocation as second school and rely mostly on Greater Ruin and Hellball combo.

[AstralUniverse]

Not only that I think PMs are very strong and dont need any love, I think NEP (5) potions should be a craftable thing.

[Apothys]

You are entirely correct. You are not supposed to remove them, you have to play around them. Energy Drain and Enervation still work if the target only has Death Ward and not Negative Energy Protection. Undeaths Eternal Foe I wouldnt worry too much, it is a round/level spell, you can wait it out if that is the only thing blocking you.

To be honest, asides from Horrid Wilting Necromancy has always been a terrible school. This is why caster PM was never that good. You can survive very well, but when it comes to killing anything, it is summons or the usual Mage stuff. And as you mentioned, the summons are very fallible.

When I played mine I used mostly the undead summons, cloudkill and IGMS, and if that failed, you run, because you are not killing anyone that day. You can probably make something work if you go Evocation as second school and rely mostly on Greater Ruin and Hellball combo.

Yeah guess ill have to work around them hmmm like it, ill try that combo. Thanks for the response.

[Apothys]

Not only that I think PMs are very strong and dont need any love, I think NEP (5) potions should be a craftable thing.

depending on locations around arelith, these drop in high quantity in some places. Beside im pretty sure rogues with crippling strike and necromancers above and below would be like nooooo!

[NauVaseline]

Not only that I think PMs are very strong and dont need any love, I think NEP (5) potions should be a craftable thing.

They are. It requires Brew Potion. As otherwise noted, they are also an absurdly common loot drop.