Rewards need to offer new incentives

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Currently, the big draw of the Epic Sacrifice is, a) the lowering of ECL on a future character, or, b) access to a unique race.

As someone sitting on a good ol' Normal Reward, combing through the options this Reward can get me, I find myself underwhelmed. Because my options basically boil down to:

1. "wild" variants of earthkin (Wild Dwarves and Forest Gnomes are almost atypical to the point of why)
2. evil races (cool, but not for me)
3. ECL reduction

Because I'd rather play a Shield Dwarf than a Wild Dwarf, and a Surfacer rather than an UDer, I'm really only left with the ECL reduction. I would wager that a lot of folk opt for the ECL reduction as well. (Maybe that should be a poll) A lot of this actually scales all the way up to Greater Rewards too. Major Rewards seem separate and apart because of some of the new races actually let you play around with new systems.

My problem is that the ECL reduction is actually the opposite of what I want to experience. Arelith catapults you through the leveling process like never before - and this is not a complaint. I really enjoy the new systems we have in place to ease the burden and make things more exciting and fresh. What I don't need, however, is to be given an ECL reduction that makes this go even faster.

If anything, I want to have options that somehow increase of my mechanical "floor" in terms of power, or give me new mechanical options, or something. At the cost of leveling slower (higher ECL).

Maybe Normal Rewards can be used to let you take 4 Gifts instead of 3. Maybe Normal Rewards can let you take 3 Major Gifts. Maybe Normal Rewards let you pick an extra skill proficiency that's a bonus. Maybe you can start with a bonus racial language. Maybe you can get Arcane Defense: Abjuration for free. Maybe you get to use -tracks but you're just a fighter.

Some of this is broken, but I want the Gifts to make future characters cooler. Rather than just let me play races I've no interest really in playing (I'm not that kind of player), or just let me level faster.

I'm usually an opponent of the Gift system, and gating content behind level rather than player "ability", but now I'm wanting something more out of it. I'm also indifferent to it, because a lot of the time it seems just Major-reward-or-bust. Maybe for other players its different, but for me, I just want small, weird mechanical variations that let me approach a new character/build a little bit differently than before. I don't want necessarily more power, just newer perspectives - and I'll take the punishment of a higher ECL for that, over me looping through what Arelith has to offer with blinding speed.

~

New Normal Award Ideas (some at the cost of additional ECL, some not):

- 1 bonus racial language
- access to -track
- Gain 1 additional Minor Gift, for a total of 2 Major and 2 Minor
- ability to -protect_image at level 21+
- ability to -teleport at level 21+
- ability to see Attunements and Deck of Cards
- ability for Familiars to get re-skinned into a Druid Totem animals (Raven becoming Parrot; Panther becoming Snake, for example) [also add Chickens]
- one known summon stream
- Summon Mount (like the Cavalier ability)
- Create Beverages. 1/day create [character level/2] bottles of alcoholic drink whose price, rarity and degree of alcohol goes up along with character's level.
- "Wrath of the gods". Very high chance of being hit directly by lighting in a thunderstorm. Repeatedly. Increased vulnerability to electric damage. (Maybe also increases the likelihood of storms occurring when PC is outside)
- Packrat: You carry more weight.
- Expert wearer: Your gear is immune to damage.
- Legacy: Start with X/Y/Z gear selectable on character creation. (probably need to find certain items that have longevity without too much power.)
- Whittler: You make your ammo bundles organically, same as arcane archers and archers. (would also be cool for throwing ax or dart stacks too)
- Dirty fighting: Start with the namesake feat. You know how to rough people up gently.
- Sprinter: You can cast Expeditious retreat every 5 minutes, lasts 10 rounds.
- Dog and pony: Dazzle people with visual effect placeables.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

The question then is, what would make for an interesting but normal reward?

The only things that immediately spring to mind are:-

- a second branch of Background Options. Maybe Arelith specific.
- Being Haunted or Cursed (a spirit / Fey / Imp) haunts / afflicts your lineage and occasionally steals XP.
- All out of Luck -- The Patron God of Adventurers or Beshaba has big-time fallen out with you. Cannot gain Writs.

You don't really need extra mechanical support for these.

Hmm. What falls within the definition of a normal reward?

[AstralUniverse]

I always pick the negative ecl and I end up with a bunch of high epic characters I dont really see a point in rolling anymore.

[Void]

The question then is, what would make for an interesting but normal reward?

Something that actually makes a mechanical difference.

For example:
"Aristocrat: You come from powerful noble family and that yields certain benefits. The name of your house is well known and recognized by many npcs. You also receive stipend of *000 gp per in-game month."

I.e. nobility that actually has mechanical effect and to which npcs actually react.

Beyond that I can't think of anything. The races I'd love to play tend to be in "Major Award" category.
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As of now the most attractive use of a normal award is ECL reduction. Because the only options are switching alignment and being a derro or a troglodyte.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

The question then is, what would make for an interesting but normal reward?

Something that actually makes a mechanical difference.

For example:
"Aristocrat: You come from powerful noble family and that yields certain benefits. The name of your house is well known and recognized by many npcs. You also receive stipend of *000 gp per in-game month."

I.e. nobility that actually has mechanical effect and to which npcs actually react.

Beyond that I can't think of anything. The races I'd love to play tend to be in "Major Award" category.
------
As of now the most attractive use of a normal award is ECL reduction. Because the only options are switching alignment and being a derro or a troglodyte.

What you describe is beyond what is covered by The Gift of Wealth which is a Major Gift. (Money + NPC scripted responses).

I do understand your desire for mechanical effect but it has to clearly be a Normal reward as per the OP.

[Kalopsia]

I'm all for adding RP cookies as normal awards, but please no mechanical benefits like additional gifts or powerful feats. That kind of things would further a "must grind" mentality because non-award characters would be inferior to award ones.

What seems alright is stuff like:
- one bonus language
- tracking abilities
- Trackless Step feat
- access to -project_image at 21+
- access to -teleport at 21+
- Summon Mount (like the Cavalier ability)
- one known summon stream

[Void]

The question then is, what would make for an interesting but normal reward?

Something that actually makes a mechanical difference.

For example:
"Aristocrat: You come from powerful noble family and that yields certain benefits. The name of your house is well known and recognized by many npcs. You also receive stipend of *000 gp per in-game month."

I.e. nobility that actually has mechanical effect and to which npcs actually react.

Beyond that I can't think of anything. The races I'd love to play tend to be in "Major Award" category.
------
As of now the most attractive use of a normal award is ECL reduction. Because the only options are switching alignment and being a derro or a troglodyte.

What you describe is beyond what is covered by The Gift of Wealth which is a Major Gift. (Money + NPC scripted responses).

I do understand your desire for mechanical effect but it has to clearly be a Normal reward as per the OP.

I'm talking about reward going beyond award gift award and combining them both into one. Additionally picking this option would keep the gift slot open.

The number of npcs with scripted responses to nobility in the module is nearly zero. There are so few of them that most players with nobility award never meet one. See threads on nobility in feedback section.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I'm all for adding RP cookies as normal awards, but please no mechanical benefits like additional gifts or powerful feats. That kind of things would further a "must grind" mentality because non-award characters would be inferior to award ones.

What seems alright is stuff like:
- one bonus language
- tracking abilities
- Trackless Step feat
- access to -project_image at 21+
- access to -teleport at 21+
- Summon Mount (like the Cavalier ability)
- one known summon stream

This is the stuff I like, yeah. Trackless Step might teeter the line a bit, but some mechanical variations would be cool.

"Lateral mechanics" that offer up more options. This inherently makes characters more powerful because they can do More Things, but avoids the number-crunching aspect of "vertical mechanics" where getting number bonuses creates tiered characters through the lens of PvP/PvE.

I love lateral mechanics. Tying them to Gifts would be wicked awesome.

[The GrumpyCat]

I just want to say I 100% agree with you here, Seven. Absolutly. Normal awards in particular are really underwhelming right now and this is definatly on my 'To do' list. Though right now we've a lot going on, and whilst I can come up with ideas, it's also about finding time and people needed to implement them.

But yes, normal awards /suck/ right now, for the most part. I'd love to see a bit more vareity.

- one bonus language
- tracking abilities
- Trackless Step feat
- access to -project_image at 21+
- access to -teleport at 21+
- Summon Mount (like the Cavalier ability)
- one known summon stream

These are something like whta would be good, yeah, but not OP for Normal Award. I'm already sold on the idea of access to a bonus language, and this is something I've intended.

IDK about the others in particular, but they're good ideas in general and I can see something on that level (a small rp/mechanical perk) being implemented.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

If there's Dev/DM buy-in, I think it'd be cool to turn this thread into a List of Options. I'd argue some mechanical "perks" (calling it a perk seems like a word) could be spread over Minor/Normal/Greater rewards.

We can call on the Build Pundits then to hammer down which options would be way too backbreaking.

[The GrumpyCat]

I encourage people to come up with more ideas!

Here's one.

What about new skins (and note, likely just skins, not neccesarly much in the way of mechanics) for Familiars/Animal companions?

[Griefmaker]

How about normal and higher awards can be used to add another minor gift? They are mechanical awards but allow a character to be specialized more than simply granting the simple strengths of major awards.

At the same time I would say why not look at adding more to minor gifts, like some of what was listed before? Things like being able to use an award to teleport or use send image or even stuff like be able to see auras. All of those would be cool. If an ecl boost is needed, that is fine too.

[Flower Power]

What I'd like, and I know this might not be universally popular, would be something like burning a Normal award to be given a ring that functions like the RH Signet rings, with the same sort of enchantment options, with enchanting accessible through like - a Self Only Power on the ring or something? Starts with 1 enchant at L3, gets another at 10, 20, 30 - functionally identical to the RH ring but scaling off level, not writs.

It solves the issue of the RH Ring being "OP" and it being unfair that it's gated behind playing a Good Guy (TM) - and lets you burn your Normal getting a single piece of good, but not really INSANE, equipment for free, easing up some of the nightmare that can be getting a full set of endgame gear.

And unlike the RH Signet rings, they'd be a blank slate for you to color narratively however you please:
"Oh, this? This is my family's signet ring - all trueborn members of House ----- carry magical rings like this."
"A passing mage gave this to me when I was a child - he told me to keep it safe and dear, and that I'd know when the time has come to face - my destiny."

With something like this, the Normal award options turn into:

- Burning your award to level easier,
- Burning your award to play that niche race or UD concept you really wanted to play,
- Burning your award for a narrative boost (like bonus languages or minor awards) with some other suggestions made here
- Burning your award for a small mechanical boost that, unlike having an extra Major Gift, won't make you inherently and permanently statistically superior to all non-Normal'd PCs (since Hard 5%'ing gear is a thing.)

[Void]

I encourage people to come up with more ideas!

• Summon Bear 1/day.
• Chicken Familiar.
• Clockwork Horse Mount.
• "Mysterious lamp". Character gains a lamp that can be used only once. Upon use a creature will be summoned which can be friendly, or can be terrible. Upon use the lamp disappears.
• Create Beverages. 1/day create hd/2 bottles of alcoholic drink whose price, rarity and degree of alcohol goes up along with character's level.
• "Arcane Jinx". 10% arcane spell failure to anyone within 20 meter radius from the character. 20% arcane spell failure on the character. Cannot be removed.
• "I am not here". 10% permanent concealment. -4 charisma. Charisma cannot be raised above 8.
• "Wrath of the gods". Very high chance of being hit directly by lighting in a thunderstorm. Repeatedly. Increased vulnerability to electric damage.
• "Witchbane". Character gains spell resistance that grows with the level and does not stack with anything else. Character cannot use any magic from any source.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I encourage people to come up with more ideas!

• Summon Bear 1/day.
• Chicken Familiar.
• Clockwork Horse Mount.
• "Mysterious lamp". Character gains a lamp that can be used only once. Upon use a creature will be summoned which can be friendly, or can be terrible. Upon use the lamp disappears.
• Create Beverages. 1/day create hd/2 bottles of alcoholic drink whose price, rarity and degree of alcohol goes up along with character's level.
• "Arcane Jinx". 10% arcane spell failure to anyone within 20 meter radius from the character. 20% arcane spell failure on the character. Cannot be removed.
• "I am not here". 10% permanent concealment. -4 charisma. Charisma cannot be raised above 8.
• "Wrath of the gods". Very high chance of being hit directly by lighting in a thunderstorm. Repeatedly. Increased vulnerability to electric damage.
• "Witchbane". Character gains spell resistance that grows with the level and does not stack with anything else. Character cannot use any magic from any source.

Some of these are funny, some of these are way, way too strong.

I think the best thing is to work within pre-existing mechanics. Animal reskins sounds great, because we already have parrot druids so letting a wizard have a parrot (crow) familiar sounds really AR YE MATEY.

I will edit my original post as ideas come in that I think are strong contenders.

[Opustus]

Minor reward ideas:

Packrat: You carry more weight.
Expert wearer: Your gear is immune to damage.
Legacy: Start with X/Y/Z gear selectable on character creation.
Whittler: You make your ammo bundles organically, same as arcane archers and archers.
Dirty fighting: Start with the namesake feat. You know how to rough people up gently.
Sprinter: You can cast Expeditious retreat every 5 minutes, lasts 10 rounds.
Dog and pony: Dazzle people with visual effect placeables.

[kiljaedon]

I can so dig dity fighting as a reward. Its already an included feat on all my builds.

[Cataclysm of Iron]

Would the Improved Dweomercrafting feat, Shadow Door abilities, or additional Trade Skill Points (as in ranks, not per day) on top of the Gift, if taken, be good or would they swing too close to hard mechanical benefits?

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Trade Ranks and Improved Dweomercrafting seem too mechanically beneficial.

Shadow Door abilities is probably more in-line with stuff. It's weird and abstract and doesn't do too much of a "powerful" thing beyond doing something "neat."

[Wuthering]

What about new skins (and note, likely just skins, not neccesarly much in the way of mechanics) for Familiars/Animal companions?

What about pets for non-druids, non-rangers? I think a lot of characters who wouldn't otherwise be able to have familiars and animal companions would trade a minor or normal award for a thematic but mostly mechanically useless animal pal.

[NauVaseline]

Currently, the big draw of the Epic Sacrifice is, a) the lowering of ECL on a future character, or, b) access to a unique race.

Are we not allowed to ask for a custom item or ability anymore?

[garrbear758]

Currently, the big draw of the Epic Sacrifice is, a) the lowering of ECL on a future character, or, b) access to a unique race.

Are we not allowed to ask for a custom item or ability anymore?

No. This ended sometime around December or January. The server is just getting too big for it, and it makes way more sense for devs to spend time on stuff that more than one person will get to use.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Currently, the big draw of the Epic Sacrifice is, a) the lowering of ECL on a future character, or, b) access to a unique race.

Are we not allowed to ask for a custom item or ability anymore?

No. This ended sometime around December or January. The server is just getting too big for it, and it makes way more sense for devs to spend time on stuff that more than one person will get to use.

I have to wonder then, if there is any way to create a room via that new automated 5% system for the DMs to allow a custom item to be made via a special enchanting session by burning a 5%

With a list of available enchantments obviously

[NauVaseline]

No. This ended sometime around December or January. The server is just getting too big for it, and it makes way more sense for devs to spend time on stuff that more than one person will get to use.

Pretty unfortunate as I haven't found custom races appealing in years and -ecl is... well, meh.

I have to wonder then, if there is any way to create a room via that new automated 5% system for the DMs to allow a custom item to be made via a special enchanting session by burning a 5%

With a list of available enchantments obviously

It's stupid easy to create and import items as a DM WITHOUT all of that extra scripting/special room creation. Like, less than ten minutes. So it'd be unnecessary

[Shrouded Wanderer]

No. This ended sometime around December or January. The server is just getting too big for it, and it makes way more sense for devs to spend time on stuff that more than one person will get to use.

Pretty unfortunate as I haven't found custom races appealing in years and -ecl is... well, meh.

I have to wonder then, if there is any way to create a room via that new automated 5% system for the DMs to allow a custom item to be made via a special enchanting session by burning a 5%

With a list of available enchantments obviously

It's stupid easy to create and import items as a DM WITHOUT all of that extra scripting/special room creation. Like, less than ten minutes. So it'd be unnecessary

I'm sure it is stupid easy. But I believe the point is to automate the process