Stealth/Detection change

[three wolf moon]

As a person maining a character who is deeply invested in stealth (DEX build, max ranks, ESF hide/ms), I think this change is ill advised and should be removed, or at least fundamentally changed.

I believe the very concept of this change is flawed. You, the stealther, are the one trespassing/following/listening in on people. Why do you get a cookie that helps you do this? It almost completely eliminates any risk you take following someone or gathering information because you'll instantly leave the area if you're smart and avoid that person in the future because the prompt TELLS you who detects you. It flies in the face of roleplay, too, since it effectively puts rp behind a skill requirement (bluff), hurting everyone that doesn't have a dip in a class that has that skill.

And what is the interaction between a stealther detecting another stealther? If stealther A is following stealther B, does stealther B get pinged that stealther A detects them even if stealther B can't see them, effectively alerting them that they've been detected for free?

If not removed entirely, I feel the implementation should be changed drastically. The person spotting you should not be announced to you in an OOC ping, it should be a generic (You sense someone is watching you/you feel watched). Furthermore it shouldn't just be gated behind bluff, it should also work for perform, and I hope the threshold is low to be more forgiving to people who cross class or gear instead of dip.

Again as a person who mains a heavily stealth-invested character, I am upset. This removes a lot of the mystery, excitement, and risk that comes with using stealth to tail and eavesdrop on people and I hope that this change is reverted entirely.

[Zavandar]

being able to go "I can tell you hear me" at someone who hasn't even posted is eeeeeeh to me

it also eliminates a lot of the excitement of stealthing

It also makes stealthing even stronger (which I dont think is something that needs to be done)

It also makes spot even better (detect stealth, break disguised, see if you're spotted)

I'm glad we have another coder on deck and I'm sure this took some work (I am very ignorant of coding), but I do not think this change is good

[Hinty]

Not sure about how i feel on this, I think it is a good idea because it makes sense, it is usually fairly obvious if someone knows you are there or not.
As for the RP behind a skill requirement thing, I am ABSOLUTELY behind this. If you want your character to be able to bluff, then they bloody well should have ranks in the skill. You should not be able to completely hide the fact that you've noticed someone with 0 bluff.

I'm not saying that you have to have max ranks to be a good liar, but if you have a character that lies regularly and you do not RP tells, or make your bluffs somewhat transparent, then you should be putting a significant investment into the skill.

I like the idea of this, it makes sense from a "realism" stand point, on the other hand, and I say this as someone who plays 90% of my chars as stealth chars, stealth in NwN is broken and anything that nerfs stealthers is good. To my mind, priority, however, should be on squashing the ability to just stand next to someone in a well lit open room without them noticing.

[three wolf moon]

Not sure about how i feel on this, I think it is a good idea because it makes sense, it is usually fairly obvious if someone knows you are there or not.
As for the RP behind a skill requirement thing, I am ABSOLUTELY behind this. If you want your character to be able to bluff, then they bloody well should have ranks in the skill. You should not be able to completely hide the fact that you've noticed someone with 0 bluff.

Not sure what you mean by this, have you ever shadowed someone before? To reiterate, this works even for listen, not just spot where you need visual contact to see someone. How in the world is it "easy" to tell if someone HEARS you or not? I'm sorry, I think that's reaching, and not realistic at all.

Therefore I'm not sure how you can justify bluff as a skill to just.. simply pretend you don't hear someone. There is a certain level of skill ranks = rp that is acceptable, I agree, but this is taking it way overboard.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

There's been a lot that has swung in favour of stealthers -

- UMD/lore changes
- True Seeing nerfs
- prevalence of HiPS in classes
- there are probably more,
- and now this.

Ontop of pre-existing items that grant high bonuses to Hide/Move Silently, ontop of Corner Sneaking mechanics, ontop of just general player competence and ability.

I'm not sure *why* we need this. I'm not sure I understand the motivation behind it. I don't know if this is the mechanical area that needs more advantages.

[Might-N-Magic]

As a person who plays stealthers exclusively... This should never have been a thing. It makes no sense and is utterly unnecessary.

[-XXX-]

TBH I am starting to feel a little jaded whenever any change concerning stealth gets implemented at this point.

[Morgy]

I’m not a fan of this idea. I don’t think anyone should be warned if they have been spotted, because it will be abused imo. I just don’t see the benefit.

[AstralUniverse]

My only wonder is.. did rogues/assassins/rangers/SDs need such a huge buff in pvp and RP-spying?

[Void]

I think a lot of people in this thread haven't used the mechanic and instead of arguing against implementation, argue against how they think it is implemented.

For example, the post does not say what the chance is. It could be one percent.

The script will also be feeding false positives to the sneaker (because if an PC beat your hide/spot check), that does not mean the player has noticed you.

- UMD/lore changes
- True Seeing nerfs
- prevalence of HiPS in classes

Lore/UMD does not favor hipsing classes, it weakens them. I think the UMD chanlge also increased wand umd requirements, because previously it was flat 10 for every wand, unless I"m mistaken. Now, 4th circle wands require 20. Likewise, lore reduces access to the scroll, because previously skill level of 33 UMD could let you fire any scroll,.

Regarrding true seeing, clairvoyance + amplify are still available.

As for prevalence, there are two classes total which can hide in plain sight. Even assassin does not get this ability (although it should have).

Lastly, there are already mechanics in the game which allow you to recognize with some degree of error if you're spotted.

[Diegovog]

Very interesting change. I'd like to see it in action.

Perhaps we will see a shift from everyone investing in listen into spot again.

And as the "your disguise held up against scrutiny" message, this can help prevent a lot of meta.

I'm still against the umber hulk change that buffed stealthers but this is pretty interesting!

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Oooh, another thread on this. I get that people are saying stealth is too powerful now, and with so much gear aimed toward it I'm not surprised. But this seems like it could be fixed with just some better spot/listen gear for dedicated spotters, and will actually make said dedicated spotters a high demand friend to have. Being able to turn into a umberhulk just to spot a stealther was silly though, and that was a good change. Just remember that when balancing it you still want to have the premier stealther's be about 10-15 points higher then the premier spotters, otherwise stealth becomes useless again.

[Nobs]

Oooh, another thread on this. I get that people are saying stealth is too powerful now, and with so much gear aimed toward it I'm not surprised. But this seems like it could be fixed with just some better spot/listen gear for dedicated spotters, and will actually make said dedicated spotters a high demand friend to have. Being able to turn into a umberhulk just to spot a stealther was silly though, and that was a good change. Just remember that when balancing it you still want to have the premier stealther's be about 10-15 points higher then the premier spotters, otherwise stealth becomes useless again.

if you build a dedicated spotter and gear him for it no sneak wil be able to pass you ever.

[Nitro]

Oooh, another thread on this. I get that people are saying stealth is too powerful now, and with so much gear aimed toward it I'm not surprised. But this seems like it could be fixed with just some better spot/listen gear for dedicated spotters, and will actually make said dedicated spotters a high demand friend to have. Being able to turn into a umberhulk just to spot a stealther was silly though, and that was a good change. Just remember that when balancing it you still want to have the premier stealther's be about 10-15 points higher then the premier spotters, otherwise stealth becomes useless again.

if you build a dedicated spotter and gear him for it no sneak wil be able to pass you ever.

At which point you have a character hyperspecialized in exactly one thing at the detriment of the whole build, you won't even have use for your ludicrous spot in general PvP or PvE, just specifically against stealthed players.

A sneak meanwhile, gets full benefit from their stealth in every aspect of their gameplay, from PvE to PvP to social interactions.

[Void]

Oooh, another thread on this. I get that people are saying stealth is too powerful now, and with so much gear aimed toward it I'm not surprised. But this seems like it could be fixed with just some better spot/listen gear for dedicated spotters, and will actually make said dedicated spotters a high demand friend to have. Being able to turn into a umberhulk just to spot a stealther was silly though, and that was a good change. Just remember that when balancing it you still want to have the premier stealther's be about 10-15 points higher then the premier spotters, otherwise stealth becomes useless again.

if you build a dedicated spotter and gear him for it no sneak wil be able to pass you ever.

There are also two easily obtainable spells that can give +30 boost to detection skills and are wandable on top of that.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I think being able to tell someone notices you completely normal and immersive.

A few more tweaks and soon the bard will be the stealth/social master.

That being said, i think the dc for detecting someone detecting you should go in favour of the watcher. Its much easier to watch someone in the corner of your eye than to watch someone watching you while trying to stealth from the city the whole time


Spot check made against dc of bluff + 20 to notice the guy noticing you.

[Apothys]

Lets give this change time to settle in and see how it works. Having someone snap there attention to you or do a double take as they hear a rustle or spot you moving cautiously through the shadows close to them, seems quite cool to me.

We all do things unconsciously, our toons would be subject to the same things. I really like opposed rolls, gives your skills some great meaning other than a bog standard + to saves or AC. If this were a PnP game this sort of opposed rolling would be exactly what a dm would do.

[TimeAdept]

If this were a PnP game we'd be using it's stealth system which does not involve this bluff/spot interplay at all.

[TheRagingGoblin]

Unsure if this has been mentioned anywhere but..

If the stealther can roll to detect if they've been detected by a detector, why can't the detector roll to determine if the detected stealther knows they've been detected?

Another extension, starting to get ridiculous here.

Why then can't a detected stealther who detected a detector detecting them, roll to detect if the detector that detected them detected the detected stealther's reaction to being detected.

Similar vein.

Can another stealther roll to detect a detector's reaction to detecting another stealther?
Can everyone present roll to detect the detector's reaction to detecting a stealther?

Going down a rabbit hole here and it's really as if these are things that should be RPed..

Moving on and taking similar logic from the change elsewhere.

I attack someone and hit/miss. Can I roll to determine the target's AC? (the target won't need to RP how good/bad at defending they are)
I attack someone and do damage. Can I roll to determine the target's HP? (the target won't need to RP how tough/not tough they are)
I knock down or disarm someone. Can I roll to learn their discipline? (the target won't need to rp a bandaid of a skill implemented for nwn alone)

[Void]

As a person maining a character who is deeply invested in stealth (DEX build, max ranks, ESF hide/ms), I think this change is ill advised and should be removed, or at least fundamentally changed.

The change has been reverted, apparently.

Hello, Inf again. Small update for you: this change is no longer live.

It was reverted a few hours after it was deployed because of a bug it introduced to line of sight. I should have noticed it, but I didn't due to the small size of the module I test in. A big thank you to Spyre and everyone else involved in catching that and rolling it back.

...

[Biolab00]

Yea, i got that the change has been reverted

Though, i don't think "Bluff" has anything to do with knowing that you've been detected or not.

Whether the Stealth PC knows that he or she is being detected is be reliant on the "Sixth Sense" thing.
Bluff skill relates to Disguise feature on the accord that they are extremely skilled at lying which makes sense that they can effectively disguised themselves. No matter how i see it, Bluff skills doesn't relate to detection at all.

Actually, i do agree that being able to know whether your stealth has been spotted or not is a very good introduction because it will effectively shows the level of "skill" the stealth person has, whether it's a legendary stealth master RP toon or just an average Joe.

I'm pretty sure that we've watched plenty of dramas/movies that have legendary experts who actually knows that the bait detected them sneaking behind and runs off first, and there's also vice-versa.

Hence, It will be great if the introduction of this to introduce a New Skill which requires investment only for that particular sixth sense and this skill simply does what it do.
But to implement this, is a huge project itself. Therefore, it's likely a big no.

[Void]

Yea, i got that the change has been reverted

Though, i don't think "Bluff" has anything to do with knowing that you've been detected or not.

Whether the Stealth PC knows that he or she is being detected is be reliant on the "Sixth Sense" thing.
Bluff skill relates to Disguise feature on the accord that they are extremely skilled at lying which makes sense that they can effectively disguised themselves. No matter how i see it, Bluff skills doesn't relate to detection at all.

Actually, i do agree that being able to know whether your stealth has been spotted or not is a very good introduction because it will effectively shows the level of "skill" the stealth person has, whether it's a legendary stealth master RP toon or just an average Joe.

I'm pretty sure that we've watched plenty of dramas/movies that have legendary experts who actually knows that the bait detected them sneaking behind and runs off first, and there's also vice-versa.

Hence, It will be great if the introduction of this to introduce a New Skill which requires investment only for that particular sixth sense and this skill simply does what it do.
But to implement this, is a huge project itself. Therefore, it's likely a big no.

In PnP bluff is usually opposed by sense motive. Which is wisdom based. This happens in case of things like Feint.

Disguise, however, is its own skill and is opposed by Spot.

There are also fun things like trying to convey hidden message by bluffing. Others can intercept it with sense motive.

IMplementing Disguise and Sense Motive on arelith, however, will result in skill point shortage.

[Biolab00]

Yea, i got that the change has been reverted

Though, i don't think "Bluff" has anything to do with knowing that you've been detected or not.

Whether the Stealth PC knows that he or she is being detected is be reliant on the "Sixth Sense" thing.
Bluff skill relates to Disguise feature on the accord that they are extremely skilled at lying which makes sense that they can effectively disguised themselves. No matter how i see it, Bluff skills doesn't relate to detection at all.

Actually, i do agree that being able to know whether your stealth has been spotted or not is a very good introduction because it will effectively shows the level of "skill" the stealth person has, whether it's a legendary stealth master RP toon or just an average Joe.

I'm pretty sure that we've watched plenty of dramas/movies that have legendary experts who actually knows that the bait detected them sneaking behind and runs off first, and there's also vice-versa.

Hence, It will be great if the introduction of this to introduce a New Skill which requires investment only for that particular sixth sense and this skill simply does what it do.
But to implement this, is a huge project itself. Therefore, it's likely a big no.

In PnP bluff is usually opposed by sense motive. Which is wisdom based. This happens in case of things like Feint.

Disguise, however, is its own skill and is opposed by Spot.

There are also fun things like trying to convey hidden message by bluffing. Others can intercept it with sense motive.

IMplementing Disguise and Sense Motive on arelith, however, will result in skill point shortage.

Yep ! The skill point shortage is the main point
To get, you have to give !

[TimeAdept]

The massively bloated skill list was widely considered a problem with 3.5, which is why 4e, 5e, and pathfinder, as well as many other systems in general, work on a much slimmer list. Let's not go too crazy trying to reinvent the wheel here. No narrative engagement is gained by forcing a Ranger to dip Bard so he can max bluff alongside Spot so he can see someone without someone knowing he saw someone.

[Defense Light Fables]

if i'm behind you and you look over your shoulder

and i can't notice that you're looking at me over your shoulder

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiDSWMNfTvQ

and i'm dead!

D&D is a game based on a fantasy setting, but there is some level of realism with its many intricate systems and a plethora of lore. Adding in small touches to make the setting of Arelith not only more challenging but also more detailed, is in my opinion, a move in the right direction. Details make a setting more lively and more fulfilling to experience.

You may react to say that this isn't a simulator, or that Arelith isn't a hardcore server - and you'd be correct, it is a roleplay server. Roll the dice, take a chance, take an 'L' every once in a while, it's fun when you're challenged, not when you can steamroll your opposition.