Who watches the watchmen?

[Misericordus]

Stealth doesn't need any more buffs. I think this change is going to hurt conflict RP more than it helps it — by allowing stealth PCs to quickly identify who can detect them and avoid those people.

If it's going to exist in any form, I think that this check should be weighted rather heavily in favor of the spotter as opposed to the stealther. It should also use the Perform skill if the PC has no Bluff; expecting people to buy both skills, just to spot stealthers without being "outed" as a spotter is unreasonable.

This is a real phenomenon. Stealth PCs, consciously or otherwise, will learn who can see them and use tools like the player list and etc. to judge when it's safe to go somewhere hostile to them. This is going to encourage and reward this type of behavior, on a scale too large for case-by-case arbitration to be practical or feasible.

[Flower Power]

Stealth was already in a really good place even before Polymorph Self got nerfed into being a wasted spellslot.

The way Stealth and Detection works, mechanically, inherently favored Stealth already - many of the Arelithspecific changes (like nerfing TS, and making it so Rogues move faster in Stealth) only tipped the scales even further in the Stealther's favor.

Please stop.

Thank you.

[three wolf moon]

Hard agree, I posted my thoughts here. Two seconds before you (ha).

[Cataclysm of Iron]

I'd recommend stepping away from this as a power balance thing - this is just common sense. Generally speaking you'd know, if you're trying to hide, when someone has seen you.

[Drowboy]

I'd recommend stepping away from this as a power balance thing - this is just common sense. Generally speaking you'd know, if you're trying to hide, when someone has seen you.

While 'stepping away as a balance thing' seems to be the order of the day, this is still a bad change.

[three wolf moon]

I'd recommend stepping away from this as a power balance thing - this is just common sense. Generally speaking you'd know, if you're trying to hide, when someone has seen you.

How do you tell if someone hears you though?

[Xerah]

I'd recommend stepping away from this as a power balance thing - this is just common sense. Generally speaking you'd know, if you're trying to hide, when someone has seen you.

How do you tell if someone hears you though?

When you hear something you tend to look towards that sound. The better you are at hiding that, the less someone will notice you looking in that direction. You don't just hear something and know there is a dude 14' away at 5 o'clock like shows up in NWN.

[three wolf moon]

I'd recommend stepping away from this as a power balance thing - this is just common sense. Generally speaking you'd know, if you're trying to hide, when someone has seen you.

How do you tell if someone hears you though?

When you hear something you tend to look towards that sound. The better you are at hiding that, the less someone will notice you looking in that direction. You don't just hear something and know there is a dude 14' away at 5 o'clock like shows up in NWN.

So are you telling me that my character MUST do this unless they have bluff? That's a lot of god emoting for my character. He is an elf, so he has keen senses and isn't always walking/detect mode. Are you telling me that, if he's on his way running someplace or doing something else, he MUST stop, look toward this person while he's doing whatever else he's doing? Unless he has bluff. The server is telling me, and the person I happen to detect, what my character does, with no input from myself.

I'm sorry, I find that to be incredibly silly, and it takes agency away from the players.

It's also very tangential, because the argument should not be whether it is realistic, but whether it is good for the server, and as a stealth main I believe it is not.

[Drowboy]

How do you tell if someone hears you though?

When you hear something you tend to look towards that sound. The better you are at hiding that, the less someone will notice you looking in that direction. You don't just hear something and know there is a dude 14' away at 5 o'clock like shows up in NWN.

So are you telling me that my character MUST do this unless they have bluff? That's a lot of god emoting for my character. He is an elf, so he has keen senses and isn't always walking/detect mode. Are you telling me that, if he's on his way running someplace or doing something else, he MUST stop, look toward this person while he's doing whatever else he's doing? Unless he has bluff. The server is telling me, and the person I happen to detect, what my character does, with no input from myself.

I'm sorry, I find that to be incredibly silly, and it takes agency away from the players.

It's also very tangential, because the argument should not be whether it is realistic, but whether it is good for the server, and as a stealth main I believe it is not.

I actually came here to mention this exact thing: All elves are now locked into constantly throwing out bluff checks if they happen to have any spot at all? They can't turn their detection off. Seems like a cool way to get people pvp'd. 'You spotted me, time to die, no witnesses!' When someone's just trying to shop or whatever.

[Misericordus]

All I have to say is if you're going to automate my roleplay for me you might as well just automate all of it, and I'll keep out of it.

[LichBait]

Dislike as well. It seems to cut RP out from both sides. Either one may get PvP'd for spotting, or the hidden party is just going to quietly walk off before the one who spotted them has a chance to emote/interact. Kind of meh.

[Aradin]

I agree with the general consensus being spread in both of the stealth feedback threads. Everything I'd say has been posted already so I'll just throw my weight in there as another person who thinks this is not a good change.

[Za-Lord~s Guard]

I have a question regarding the way this functions with two stealthers.

Stealther A has a detect skill, and no bluff.

Stealther B does not have a detect skill, but rolls well enough to beat A's bluff check.

If stealther A sees/hears stealther B, would stealther B then be notified that he was seen/heard by stealther A? Thus informing B that A is nearby and stealthed?

[three wolf moon]

I have a question regarding the way this functions with two stealthers.

Stealther A has a detect skill, and no bluff.

Stealther B does not have a detect skill, but rolls well enough to beat A's bluff check.

If stealther A sees/hears stealther B, would stealther B then be notified that he was seen/heard by stealther A? Thus informing B that A is nearby and stealthed?

Furthermore, if you are a character with spot, and no hide/MS, are you able to "fish" for stealthers by going into stealth when you have no chance of succeeding, and your high spot then tells you that stealthers are nearby watching you?

[Misericordus]

I have a question regarding the way this functions with two stealthers.

Stealther A has a detect skill, and no bluff.

Stealther B does not have a detect skill, but rolls well enough to beat A's bluff check.

If stealther A sees/hears stealther B, would stealther B then be notified that he was seen/heard by stealther A? Thus informing B that A is nearby and stealthed?

I was just thinking the same.

Do I need bluff to be an effective stealther now?

Is anyone who flashes stealth mode for a second going to get a message that I've spotted them, even if I'm invisible or stealthed?

Would love to know.

[Shadowy Reality]

Then why do stealthers have their names greyed out? Why can detectors see that I am stealthed before I emote that I am stealthing?

Because it makes sense. You can see that someone is actively stealthing, as you can usually (hence the bluff) tell someone noticed something odd.

If you want to argue stealth is too strong, go ahead, but this is not what makes it so, don't bash on a cool feature because of other things.

[Zavandar]

stealthers used to not have the name grayed out

It was bad

[Sockss]

It's a stealth buff, which was not needed.

More importantly it takes agency away from players and how their PC's react in situations. (Are we going to go down the dark path of dice checks for persuade and strength grappling etc. I don't really want someone/something playing my PC for me)

It doesn't create any RP opportunities that weren't already possible (Making a nod to a sneaking person / letting them know), but it does eliminate some (Feeding false information to an unaware stealth person etc.).

Why was this added at all? (Edit: That came off as rather aggressive, however I'm really just curious as to the process and intent behind this.)

[Itikar]

As a stealther this removes for me part of the adrenaline of the risk in being detected while stealthed.

[Best Rich Face]

My two cents in behind "this update is bad."

1. Big spot/stealth classes like Ranger or monk with listen are kind of punished. These classes do not have bluff, yet ranger in particular has a class feature related to spot (favored enemy), as well spot/listen as a class skill. Succeeding in the skill the class features then triggers a second skill roll that is extremely unlikely to succeed. That's really not fun, nor does it encourage players to use skills. You can go ahead and ignore this point and get better saves on a non-bluff class by taking a 3-level bard dip and skill dump in epics.

2. Agency removal. As has been mentioned, assuming that a character immediately reacts to something noticed is silly, especially in a world where we have super-tuned senses of creatures like elves or halflings. What was previously handled by a player writing, "Turns his head to peer pointedly into the shadows" is now handled automatically. You are informed by the game, not your fellow players.

3. Loss of good tension. Watching a secret meeting can be pretty boring, so it's kind of neat to be unsure of whether or not you're actually hidden. And when a PC emotes that they've seen you, it's a great fulfilling break/increase of that tension. With this system, you're told absolutely by the game whether you've been seen or not, rather than wondering/getting the reveal from another player's emote.

4. We're here for role play, not roll play. I've had that particular adage thrown at me by staff every time I've asked about an opt in dice bag. But now, we have an update that places parts of what was previously player interaction into the hands of an automated system that removes some degree of narrative tension (3) and the need for a player to emote spotting themselves (2).

5. I'm unsure of what problem this update is supposed to fix, or what need this update is supposed to fulfill. Some clarity on that would be great, because honestly, if it ain't broke, don't fix it, and I'm not seeing what was broke.

I have a question regarding the way this functions with two stealthers.

Stealther A has a detect skill, and no bluff.

Stealther B does not have a detect skill, but rolls well enough to beat A's bluff check.

If stealther A sees/hears stealther B, would stealther B then be notified that he was seen/heard by stealther A? Thus informing B that A is nearby and stealthed?

I just tested this casually with someone. We did two runs:
Run 1: Two stealther/spotter characters. This wasn't super meaningful, because we were spotting each other so quickly we couldn't tell if the message came while the other was stealthed or not.

Run 2: one stealther/spoter, and one stealther with no spot. In this instance, it appeared that A seeing/hearing B does not cause B to be notified that A spotted B, so it did not spoil A's stealth for failing a bluff check. If this is indeed the case, I'd like to commend our new coder on the foresight of preventing this from happening. Good catch!

Would be nice if some other folks replicated these results. Also, as a note, this didn't seem to work at all on the PGCC.

[Frailman]

I'm gonna go ahead and take on the oncoming torrent of hate and say I like it. Makes sense. You can usually tell if someone's spots you when sneaking about.

[magistrasa]

I think it's good that the devs are trying to capture reality and make Arelith feel like a more authentic experience. True, I do think this change is imperfect, but the spirit behind it is laudable at the very least. It could be tweaked for more fairness and realism in play - maybe these things are only possible while in detect mode, for instance, and passive perception doesn't trigger the contested bluff/spot check for either party - but at its core, I think this is a clever thought and a good direction for future change.

My only lamentation is that in the past, when spotting a stealther spying on a conversation, it was fun to purposefully say the wrong things in an effort to mislead them. You can still do that, but it requires a skill investment now where none existed prior.

As well, I suppose it ironically gamifies stealth by trying to capture realism. Back when the mechanics were a bit more simple, back when things were balanced against the stealther's favor, it took real skill and cleverness to pull off a heist or spy on one's enemies. When someone pulled out their polymorph wand, it was heart-stopping. If you were trying to stealth along and follow someone who was running or had monk speed, it was really difficult to decide if you should unstealth to catch up, or duck into an alleyway to pull out a haste wand from around the corner and potentially lose track of the target - a lot of doors slammed in stealthed faces in those days. If you were spying on a good spotter, you had to play mind games to know if you'd been found out and they were covertly trying to trick or trap you. Most of the time, you don't even want people to know how well you can stealth, because then you're always going to be a suspect. Now it's certainly a lot easier for a stealther to succeed against those old stacked odds - some of the old challenges simply don't exist anymore - but I do wonder to what end this rebalance will go to.

I think enabling spies enables fun and engaging roleplay. Subterfuge and sabotage are the most rewarding roleplay experiences I think you can have on Arelith. But I think deep down I really do hate myself and I want to suffer. If I can't express my masochism through the agonizing experience that is DEX builds + stealth mechanics anymore, how should I punish myself? Make a CHA-based ogre bard and sologrind all the way to 30? Help me.

[Sockss]

I'm gonna go ahead and take on the oncoming torrent of hate and say I like it. Makes sense. You can usually tell if someone's spots you when sneaking about.

Maybe for a level 1 commoner. PC's are far beyond that.

[Archnon]

I like it, even though stealthers don't need it. And everyone is grumping about RP. I feel like this creates RP. Now I know who to avoid or who to approach or that I have been found. If you are spotted, it should not result in you just straight pvping. That would be a rule break no matter what.

However, some clear ideas to improve it.
1.) Instead of "John spotted you", it could just read, "You have been spotted". Sort of like the bluff/perform disguise mechanic works. This leaves people choices on how to act. Do I destealth? Do I run? Do I wait and see if the mystery spotter outs me? It also prevents people from targeting spotters and watching player lists.

2.) Please use another skill other than bluff. Many LG characters who build guards play into high spot. These players have no reason to play into either bluff or persuade. Make it a will check maybe (can I resist turning my head and staring) or a discipline check for the same reason. At least then, you are using skills everyone invests in.

3.) Finally, please make sure these checks are disabled for NPC's. (I also think the disguise check announcement should not include NPC's) I want to know if a PC has spotted me and be prepared to react.

[Shadowy Reality]

I'm gonna go ahead and take on the oncoming torrent of hate and say I like it. Makes sense. You can usually tell if someone's spots you when sneaking about.

Maybe for a level 1 commoner. PC's are far beyond that.

PCs are beyond that if they actually have ranks in Bluff. Otherwise they are exactly like commoners in that regard. PCs are not better at sneaking than a commoner if they both have 0 ranks in hide and move silently.