Timestop Change

[Straxus]

Time stop was never intended to be used in combat to blast the room at the onset.

The fact that it is 9th level should make a wizard hesitant to use it at all, taxing, time consuming, and components are needed. Though it is hard to reflect that in the mechanics of the NWN engine, I would still love to see higher level spells, that require components, RPd for what they are.

I myself find Wizards to be weak at low levels, as such, they either need to focus solely on their learning, or be making use of their spells in combat to learn their capabilities.

That doesn't happen here unless it is RPd.
It is not something that can or would be enforced, but I think it would make the wizard class that much cooler, and ultimately less likely to be taken. Which is a good thing.

Wizards are not supposed to be a dime a dozen character, it is one of the main reasons they spend years studying, rather than running off to the nearest dungeon.

Spellsword is the exception to this, but they still have the same guidelines as a standard wizard, they still would have to learn and practice, they just cut corners to do so.


I think I may have lost my train of thought.

Time stop and other spells that are 7th level or higher, should be RPd as precious and highly guarded for the wizard to use when he is most vulnerable.

Just my opinion.

[Cataclysm of Iron]

This however is a prime example of an objectively bad change.

Just out of interest, what's the objective element to the argument?

I do think most of your points and the others raised here on both sides are pretty strong but they do all seem to be subjective and/or anecdotal.

[Zavandar]

Time stop and other spells that are 7th level or higher, should be RPd as precious and highly guarded for the wizard to use when he is most vulnerable.

Just my opinion.

yeah everyone rping being tired every time you cast summon creature from lvl 13 every day you do writs sure does generate a lot of cool stories

a wonderful and convenient litmus test for bad changes is if pnp is cited to justify them

this isn't pnp. the dynamics are totally different.

[Sockss]

Below 50% health, we both agree how strong it is. Above 50% health, there are a lot of chance to fish 1 rolls and combine it with ice imbue to delete the chance of enemy to run away. For clearing the effect, enemy still must spend one round. So, on top of 140 damage you just got in timestop, you still going to get more damage in that one round. And, there is a poison literally makes you paralyzed for 10 rounds. That can easily fished for 1 rolls too in timestop.

We really don't.

Even under 50% you're not outputting a huge amount of damage.

I didn't even put in common buffs like PfE or EB, you get diminishing returns with APR when you factor AC in. You can't poison on top of imbues. 140 damage in a round is extremely poor, considering you have popped a long timer to do it.

If you are really in a bad way post-ts spellsword flurry for whatever reason, pop a gresto - or even pray.

The point I'm trying to make is saying X is op based on nothing is silly. People have very strong ideas of what's strong and what isn't, but when you ask why, they have nothing of substance there. If you'd like to calculate the damage for under 50% or over 50% while factoring AC, and you still think that's strong, that's a solid basis for the start of a discussion and I'd be happy to engage that.

[Kuma]

Time stop and other spells that are 7th level or higher, should be RPd as precious and highly guarded for the wizard to use when he is most vulnerable.

Just my opinion.

yeah everyone rping being tired every time you cast summon creature from lvl 13 every day you do writs sure does generate a lot of cool stories

a wonderful and convenient litmus test for bad changes is if pnp is cited to justify them

this isn't pnp. the dynamics are totally different.

if this were the case, anyway, it'd be an argument for violently buffing higher level spells so as to actually be worthy of that respect, not nerfing.

[Sockss]

This however is a prime example of an objectively bad change.

Just out of interest, what's the objective element to the argument?

I do think most of your points and the others raised here on both sides are pretty strong but they do all seem to be subjective and/or anecdotal.

In a way that is not influenced by personal feelings or opinions.

We consider the following.

Mages do not have egregious balance isssues.
Mages have been specifically balanced with Timestop being a component of their kit.

Timestop is now no longer a component of their kit.
Mages have not been balanced with Timestop not being a component of their kit.
Mages are not balanced.

[Hazard]

Gsanc is next. Check it.

plsno.

[Oaks]

I could find you a good many of posts that come down to the gist of this fictious one about the UMD change:

"Wow, this is the end of Arelith. LMAO wth can you leave balancing to the only people who objectively know a thing about the game? Wait for a few months, mages are OP now, everyone will play a mage (bonus: and they'll control the server RP, because RP is dictated by the most powerful characters)."

A few months later, with an abundance of new players and no end of Arelith in sight, a mage spell nerf.

"This is an objectively bad change, and it hurts mages. I demand a Dev to give insight to their thought process and defend their decision."

Perhaps we should really make a compilation of these. Starting off high with the "shill money" and "EE is the end of Arelith" / "That's it i'm quitting" followed by "omg new outfits <33" posts, would be a great opener.

In a more constructive sense: Maybe we can start treating meta changes as just that someday.

[Shadowy Reality]

In a way that is not influenced by personal feelings or opinions.

We consider the following.

Mages do not have egregious balance issues.
Mages have been specifically balanced with Timestop being a component of their kit.

And yet these are both false. No one designed or balanced them to be this way, it is a symptom of the real problem, which is that most spells don't work either because of immunities or because saves in Arelith are bloated. Many cookies, many spells have been added to mage's arsenal over the years, even two new paths and neither was built around Timestop.

Timestop enables some very nasty burst combos, which allow mages to brute-force their way past saves and immunites and only max level, optimized and well prepared builds will survive those combos.

Mages and specially wizards are defined by their versatility, because they supposedly have solutions for most problems, the real issue here is that their only solution was actually to brute-force their way solely because Timestop worked that way, that is the true design flaw in my opinion.

You are right, mages are going to suffer to kill things now, it will be harder, but this opens ways to balance other things and eventually bring everything in line, changes must start somewhere. As Oaks mentions, mages have always had issues, they swing from being op to up, depending on the season, like many other classes over the years.

And calling Timestop useless now is going a bit over the top, if you don't want to heal, run, or summon anything, you can still cast persistent AOES, which will work just fine and be nasty by their own right. Timestop is not useless as is and is still very worthy of a level 9 slot, because free actions are always good.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I really like this change, but I think you have to go the whole 9 yards and get rid of -pray next.

[Hexgoblin]

I'm not looking to call any hard-working developers out, but will simply endeavor to leave my thoughts on the matter at hand.

Personally, I don't like Time Stop. I've never made a secret of that in the past. I'm all for a meta built around Time Stop not existing, not because it's too powerful, but because it badly disrupts the momentum in group vs. group PvP where you'll often see the mages of both sides stop time one after another. It's just kind of annoying for everyone involved, and I personally enjoy combat with more pace and fluidity.

That's just it, though. The given rationale that Time Stop made mages too powerful does worry me a little, in regards to the thought process behind nerfing it. I do a lot of PvP, and periodically likely far too much of it -- I'll be the first to admit that -- but throughout that exposure, mages do not stand out to me as even approaching the top of Arelith's mechanical food chain. I'll try to outline my rationale here.

Arelith's mechanical state currently encourages melee, and even ranged PCs to pursue a Divine Might/Shield centric build. Imperatrix touched on this above. This is the result of a lot of factors, such as fairly easily enabled tri-stat gearing and UMD dips often being replaced by divine ones following the change made to lore. These builds pack an AC that's well out of the range of summons, and above all saves that you'll struggle to overcome with a DC spell. Even if you do, the target can always -pray out of anything but the fugue. Couple this with Arelith letting you very easily craft 150hp Heal potions in bulk, that you'll often see stacks well above 50-60 of for sale in player shops. When I retired my last character a couple of days ago, I had 65 potions of Heal in my inventory, and could've stocked up many, many more. The primary way for a mage to put up a fight against any well-built and well-geared Divine Might/Shield build, or other high-performing adversary is to get the target around roughly half HP or preferably lower, hoping to do so before he catches on and starts chugging his stack of potions of Heal, and then pop Time Stop if deeming the target low enough he won't outlive your IGMS/ESF EVO epic spell combo even if blowing his -pray, and then use that as your execution window. Cloudkill is a reliable way to nerf the HP refund on -pray, since it'll apply a saveless debuff the ability has to cleanse, deducting from the value -pray heals.

Take Time Stop out of that equation, and all the target has to do is stay calm, keep an eye on his health bar, and chug potions of Heal, employ his Greater Restoration scroll cooldown, and potentially -pray in a tight spot. Generally the potions alone will do. The mage'll run out of juice after a few rounds, and either succumb, or if fortunate -- escape with the mild comfort that he at least got some consumeable use out of his enemy. This might sound like a very hypothetical scenario, but over the last few months, I've had several fights in which participants downed anywhere between 3-10 potions of Heal.

Anyone CAN gear for saves. Sure, a Divine Might/Shield build tends to have more of it innately, but most mechanically vested PCs will have very sturdy saving throws regardless of their class combination. I don't think that's a bad thing either, really. Save or Die is a very boring approach to combat. Still, when playing a mage, it's a notion that has me opting for fixed damage spells, spells with static secondary effects aside from their primary DC component, and spells such as Time Stop that enable the former, as I'd rather not chance the enemy being poorly equipped.

That said, to a PC who hasn't gone what miles he or she could have to optimize -- which on a RP-centric server is entirely understandable -- a mage is indeed very powerful. They're scythes that harvest the uninvested at the click of a button, which makes this a very tricky situation, even if any vested warrior or archer build will accomplish much the same thing, though with less decisive flair.

Summary? I don't think the removal of Time Stop as an omnipresent consideration is a bad thing, but I think that circumstantial changes ought to have landed alongside with it. Such as the addition of diminishing returns to how much healing you'll receive from Potions of Heal when used in rapid succession, or their hugely decreased availability. I know I keep cycling back to the potions, but I feel they're really the most topical factor to bring up in the wake of Time Stop's rebranding. Or adjustments made to class builds that are a notch more oppressive than mages are when on a vested playing field. Or the additions of more secondary effects to otherwise all or nothing DC spells that'll incur some lessened temporary effect even on a narrowly passed save. Without these factors in play, even as someone who dislikes Time Stop conceptually, I'd rather it stayed the way it was. Currently, the scariest thing about a mage on the battlefield is the access to 26 CL Mordenkainen's Disjunction in a team fight.

Arelith'll keep on chugging, and I'm always interested to see in what innovative ways it keeps doing so. But on this topic, I'm very cloven.

[Sockss]

And yet these are both false. No one designed or balanced them to be this way, it is a symptom of the real problem, which is that most spells don't work either because of immunities or because saves in Arelith are bloated. Many cookies, many spells have been added to mage's arsenal over the years, even two new paths and neither was built around Timestop.

They definitely did. There was a balance team once. I can 100% say that this was entirely the case.

Timestop enables some very nasty burst combos, which allow mages to brute-force their way past saves and immunites and only max level, optimized and well prepared builds will survive those combos.

Which would you consider overpowered and why?

If there are some that are terrible, would it not be a better decision to alter those.

Mages and specially wizards are defined by their versatility, because they supposedly have solutions for most problems, the real issue here is that their only solution was actually to brute-force their way solely because Timestop worked that way, that is the true design flaw in my opinion.

Timestop use is not brute force. Knowing when to and setting up a timestop is the most tactful part of mage play.

[Sockss]

Hexgoblin's post

I agree with a lot of that.

Also I'd like to make it clear that the removal of timestop isn't necessarily a bad thing - if there are significant changes across almost everything to pair with it.

However, I don't think these have been thought out or identified. If the update was "Timestop Change" + Healing/sustain changes + mage spell changes; that would be a different kettle of fish.

Ultimately it would be a lot of work to get back to roughly the same place and seems unnecessary.

[NauVaseline]

I really like this change, but I think you have to go the whole 9 yards and get rid of -pray next.

Snuggle a Bugbear no

words

Well written.

[RogueUnicorn]

To break down some of the problems:

It's now possible to heal through a mage burst extremely easily.
A mage is unlikely to threaten anyone unless they're ungeared, poorly built and make big mistakes.
Periphery SS which has shored mediocre AB with timestop use is in trouble.
The div meta strengthens, div bards espescially, mage-nuking is the biggest danger to them.
Shotgun strengthens vs mages.

You could try playing a chad sorcerer instead of a limp-wristed wizard who doesn't have enough spell slots to win fights without cheesing.

Sorcerers are good for pew-pew. Wizards are good for utility. This nerf restores those roles well.

frog sipping tea emoji

[Complex]

Lore change happened 14th of October, and the linked suggestion was made the 15th. I honestly think this was a rushed decision (I don´t say this with the intention to offend any dev) when everyone was yelling "CASTER OVERLORDS!!!" without knowing what was really going on and now we have a bunch of people running around with high ac, good saves, heal pots and pray that mages can't even dream to deal with, and removing Time Stop has sealed their fate as Mordenkainen Disjunction's casters and little else.

Strong builds have always existed, but hasn't mage PvP always been balanced around Time Stop as well? Now we have some insane builds that have appeared thanks to the big lore changes but mages have lost one of their core spells without getting anything in exchange.

I disagree with the sorc/wiz comment. You can stock on as many healing potions as you can, and sorcs do not get any extra damage, just extra spells. Sure, they will be able to pressure people a bit more, but they are still not getting any kills against anyone who knows how to beat them.

[Sockss]

Wizard/Sorceror dynamic hasn't changed. (Relatively speaking sorceror has got slightly better than wiz because they don't need to take TS now and have a free spell choice - and they were better anyway).

They both have the same very reduced nuke.

A sorc outputs damage at the same rate as a wizard, just for longer - which doesn't make the damage less manageable.

[RogueUnicorn]

I disagree with the sorc/wiz comment. You can stock on as many healing potions as you can, and sorcs do not get any extra damage, just extra spells. Sure, they will be able to pressure people a bit more, but they are still not getting any kills against anyone who knows how to play against them.

Sounds like a situation where you should timestop/gsanc, run away, and get some friends to jump that enemy in the alleyways.

Or have damage clouds and AoEs and a horde of incredibly dangerous vampires stabbing that person while they attempt to sipp their way to victory while you're slamming them with 9 maxed IGMS + HB + Gruin + Howevermany empowered IGMS etc etc.

If you're concerned about people out-sipping to victory, the same applies in most scenarios. Even if you're being bashed by a melee character you can probably out sipp the damage if you have infinite heal pots.

If you're concerned about people sipping to victory, which I have never seen before, perhaps there should be a limit to the amount of potions someone can chug in a given period of time.

Something like 3 chugs per IG hour. No idea how you're chugging that much liquid without your stomach exploding.

[Hazard]

I disagree with the sorc/wiz comment. You can stock on as many healing potions as you can, and sorcs do not get any extra damage, just extra spells. Sure, they will be able to pressure people a bit more, but they are still not getting any kills against anyone who knows how to play against them.

Sounds like a situation where you should timestop/gsanc, run away, and get some friends to jump that enemy in the alleyways.

Or have damage clouds and AoEs and a horde of incredibly dangerous vampires stabbing that person while they attempt to sipp their way to victory while you're slamming them with 9 maxed IGMS + HB + Gruin + Howevermany empowered IGMS etc etc.

If you're concerned about people out-sipping to victory, the same applies in most scenarios. Even if you're being bashed by a melee character you can probably out sipp the damage if you have infinite heal pots.

If you're concerned about people sipping to victory, which I have never seen before, perhaps there should be a limit to the amount of potions someone can chug in a given period of time.

Something like 3 chugs per IG hour. No idea how you're chugging that much liquid without your stomach exploding.

Needing a group of players to kill a single player is not a substitute for balance. If that were the case we never would have nerfed Dragonshape because "You should just come back with more friends!"

Out-sipping does not apply to melees because their damage output is infinite, and greater because you're flatfooting yourself and providing AOOs.

You haven't seen it, okay. But we have. A lot. Like, literally hundreds of times over the course of me playing here have I seen it. An anecdote for an anecdote.

As for nerfing potion chugging. YES! I think that's a great idea. We need a bladder meter where if you chug too many potions you either pee yourself (creating a small puddle under your character -8 cha) or you take discomfort damage as you bloat yourself with fluids.

[RogueUnicorn]

Needing a group of players to kill a single player is not a substitute for balance. If that were the case we never would have nerfed Dragonshape because "You should just come back with more friends!"

No, I'm not talking about needing a group of players to kill a single player, but the idea that all classes need to have potent killing power. Some classes are more for support or utility etc, and also will never be able to kill someone who chugs infinite potions. Wizard was designed to be a class that is for support and utility, not for potent and infinite killing power. A support bard is also probably not going to singlehandedly kill someone with an inventory stocked with healing potions. A healer cleric might not be able to, either. Idk why it's absolutely necessary that a wizard is able to do that 100% of the time.

But yeah, put a cool-down on chugging heal pots. Or all pots in general.

[Sockss]

If we don't revert the TS change, healing needs to be altered for sure.

However, then we need to alter things like, and not limited to, warlocks.

A warlock can output more consistent damage than a mage. They will be buffed by reduction in healing.

Then there's damage output of melee'ers, espescially shotgun builds - or high multiplier, low range wm's, which will be increased in power in the 'shotgun' niche. Reducing the ability to bounce back from being unlucky, or being attacked first.

Then there's the increase power differential between high-survivability builds or div dips. Damage mitigation becomes much more powerful proportionally to the amount you reduce healing by.

There's so much to consider when making changes to healing and changing the PvP position of mages from 'nuker' to 'finite medicore dps'.

However, I'm sure that this has all been considered. We should wait for the dev.

[Flower Power]

Something like 3 chugs per IG hour. No idea how you're chugging that much liquid without your stomach exploding.

in b4 someone suggests the devs read the old "potion admixture" rules

[Hunter548]

This is a really bad change, for a gigantic laundry list of reasons. (Most) Mages weren't top dog right now, and with this change are probably not viable for anything other than fishing for 1s on death spells and chewing up zero AC people with vampires (Which are only as good as they are because of the lore change).


What point is there to casting timestop now except as a second GSanc but worse, and one level higher?

[Irongron]

However, I'm sure that this has all been considered. We should wait for the dev.

I accept this might be genuine, but it really does come across as yet more sarcasm. I sincerely hope that's not the case.

Also, please let me make this absolutely clear - our developers are REALLY not obliged to come to the forums to defend themselves against you, or to debate a point where your mind is clearly already made up. You may have a very long wait.

[Hazard]

Needing a group of players to kill a single player is not a substitute for balance. If that were the case we never would have nerfed Dragonshape because "You should just come back with more friends!"

No, I'm not talking about needing a group of players to kill a single player, but the idea that all classes need to have potent killing power. Some classes are more for support or utility etc, and also will never be able to kill someone who chugs infinite potions. Wizard was designed to be a class that is for support and utility, not for potent and infinite killing power. A support bard is also probably not going to singlehandedly kill someone with an inventory stocked with healing potions. A healer cleric might not be able to, either. Idk why it's absolutely necessary that a wizard is able to do that 100% of the time.

But yeah, put a cool-down on chugging heal pots. Or all pots in general.

I strongly disagree with your concept of a wizard or cleric. They are not only for support. A wizard or a cleric are among the most destructive forces in the Forgotten Realms. Wizard was NOT designed to be a class that is soley for support and utility. I don't know where you're getting such an idea from.

A support bard is not a wizard, yet a bad example because bards can be ridiculously OP in the current meta and dish out huge amounts of damage.

Casters in Forgotten Realms are not like casters in group-focused themepark MMOs. This isn't WoW, where a healer can only heal, and a wizard is entirely useless without a tank. There are roles, sure, but limiting us to being "you're a wizard, don't fight people.. you're a healer, you can only heal" is .. I'm sorry to put it so bluntly, I think a horrible direction for the server to take.