Skarain wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 5:30 am
What if one settlement decides to dedicate themselves for art
What if we just removed the ridiculous requirements for creating art
Certainly an option.
Still, I am an eternal optimist, and wanted to provide an alternative to "I hate this. Remove it please", to create further conversation. Many thanks for Marsi to answering in a post above and engaging.
I have not actually touched the painting-system for a while. I know there are dozens of different looking paintings that you can make nowadays.
Did they remove the old fixture painting that was simply something vague along with an update, so you are unable to have a simply visually "blank" painting anymore?
Or are people advocating to "all pretty new painting visuals should be easy to make" ?
Skarain wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 5:30 am
What if one settlement decides to dedicate themselves for art
What if we just removed the ridiculous requirements for creating art
Certainly an option.
Still, I am an eternal optimist, and wanted to provide an alternative to "I hate this. Remove it please", to create further conversation. Many thanks for Marsi to answering in a post above and engaging.
I have not actually touched the painting-system for a while. I know there are dozens of different looking paintings that you can make nowadays.
Did they remove the old fixture painting that was simply something vague along with an update, so you are unable to have a simply visually "blank" painting anymore?
Or are people advocating to "all pretty new painting visuals should be easy to make" ?
There's multiple ideas and alternatives presented throughout the whole thread, many of which directly or contextually answer all of these questions.
It's sadly impossible to put this in text this without sounding rude, but it seems a fair request to make given your own: If you want to stimulate engaging conversation then please at least read the conversation thus far.
I'll summarize.
1) "I hate this. Remove it please."
2) Vanilla painting (the old fixture) can be reverted and hak paintings can have fancy requirements.
3) Painting palettes have unlimited use (or multiple uses I've seen someone say in a later post - also a good idea)
4) Add lead to Skal so they can paint to.
5) Leave complicated crafting to 'end-game' items.
6) Similar to 5 - RP fixtures should be more about the dedication to the world's decoration rather than the resource grind - therefore splitting RP items into simple and Mechanics items into complex.
Irongron wrote:
[...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.
Skarain wrote: Mon May 04, 2020 1:48 pm
Still, I am an eternal optimist, and wanted to provide an alternative to "I hate this. Remove it please", to create further conversation.
Sometimes 'I hate this, remove it please' is the correction choice
Arelith has a very rich history of making paintings to depict the rich history of the server. We still have paintings around to this day from the 10's AR that are being treated like the historical relics that they are. It's a shame to stifle that behind meaningless tedium just to "promote craft RP" when the RP from paintings come from the creativity in describing the painting, not in making the mechanical fixture.
ReverentBlade wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 9:05 am
Fine art is an expensive luxury item for a reason.
Yes, clearly a blank canvas requires materials worth thousands upon thousands of gold and hours of trade skill point investments.
Just made a painting to see what the fuss was about. Bought a palette from a PC shop for 3,000 gold. Had the softwood and the cotton in my house. Took one crafting point to make the cloth. Another 6 for the painting. Your hyperbole is silly.
ReverentBlade wrote: Tue May 05, 2020 9:05 am
Fine art is an expensive luxury item for a reason.
Because of the materials used and their difficulty to source, or because of the skill of the artist?
Some of history's best artists (from writing to music to painting) were utterly dirt poor, and their craft used as a means to make more money than they were putting in (or, sadly, break even if that).
I've reviewed most of the shops I can think of in the greater Underdark area and haven't located any palettes or dyes for sale. At best finding them is a minor headache and easily dealt with, but at worst you need to full stop your roleplay and deal with a tedium that just doesn't need to be there. The latter of which prompted this post.
I find this is a support of our (that is, most posters) argument. The value of the painting is wholly in the description and not the materials.
~a one sentence vague description of a cup of unknown liquid~
vs
~a four paragraph carefully thought out and descriptive effort depicting a historical event that many characters shared~
Same resources, but very different value. I offer that this distinction is the true value of art.
Irongron wrote:
[...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.
I understand a PC who is lucky, diligent or well-connected might find others who can speed the process along. 3,000 for a palette is really cheap and I'd think the PC crafting it is doing so to help others out not to make a profit since the effort and materials required would make most of us demand alot more. That's really cool of them but it's not common and it's not really helping the economy.
I think a level 3 new player without connections who wants to make it their "thing" to be a painter should be able to get to work immediately. I think that freedom to be creative is a lot better than putting up a wall of arbitrary difficulty.
I'd like to see extravagant options as well for frames and canvas material if you want to RP creating masterpieces and those could what is a huge pain to craft. Anyone who's ever bought RL art supplies knows there's the budget version and the fancy version and an enormous price gulf in between.
I think implying that it's easy to create these things is dishonest at best. Sure there are some PC shops that sell them (though, only one that I can think of really), but they're in Cordor. I don't comb the entire server but that's the only one I can think of. I haven't seen any in the underdark at all.
If you didn't make the palette yourself, how can you really judge how easy it is to craft a painting? I am at a loss.
Even the 'default', pixelated, blobby looking default paintings require a palette. Even at 3k (by the way, the person who is selling these at 3k is doing so at a loss), can you justify the cost of that? Changing the recipe of the "plain" paintings removed any options a new or poor character might have had to make one; and gating painting RP and fixture creation behind very expensive and very time consuming items is.. well, I don't think it's very fair to those who fit into the aforementioned groups.
I hope the recipe is simplified, or if the "plain" paintings can be made more easily craftable again at least.
I used to sell painting palettes, but the large amount of very different things that go into them makes it not worthwhile. It's not worth 3k a palette. It's not worth 5k a palette even. Making palettes is grindy.
A problem is the amount of space required to store materials. There's no herbalism bag, and mining bags can only carry a tiny amount of weight compared to how heavy ores are. So I'm not picking dye reagents as I find them in the wild because I've got nowhere to store them, I need to go out of my way to farm the resources I need every time I want to make a palette. This is not fun, and ends up with me sitting in a low level dungeon camping the respawn of lead node.
If I could make a recommendation for the dye recipes, it would be to remove lead from the recipe. If the gem dust OR plant component could be removed that would be really nice as well, it would be less busywork to make a primary crafting component. But I think the biggest problem is lead. To make a palette it takes 3 lead, to make some of the more complex dyes it takes up to 4 lead per dye (such as brown dye). And it's just not fun having to camp low level dungeons for so much lead. I'd rather romp around the overworld looking for clay than sitting and camping lead.
EDIT: I might go into dyes a bit more. It's really frustrating to do anything dye related. While mixing dyes is logical, actually doing it in-game involves a lot of menu/recipe navigating because of how nested everything is. I think the new couches and the new pillows are worse than palettes, because you need to navigate through some very convoluted nested recipes.
For example, the gold damask couch takes brown dye, and gold dye.
Gold dye requires 1 dark blue dye, 2 yellow dye, and 1 dark red dye. Which means for that 1 single dye I need 4 lead chunks.
Brown dye requires 1 light blue dye, which requires 1 bleach and 1 dark blue dye, 1 yellow dye, and 1 red dye. Which is another 4 chunks of lead.
To make this single couch I need 8 lead, 8 clay, and a bunch of plants and gem dusts.
The new pillows suffer similarly.
Cushions 2 requires:
1 light blue dye (dark blue dye + bleach), 2 lead and 2 clay.
1 light green dye (bleach + dark green dye (1 dark blue dye + 1 yellow dye)), 3 lead and 3 clay.
1 light red dye (dark red dye + bleach), 2 lead and 2 clay.
1 pink dye (1 bleach + 2 dark red dye), 3 lead and 3 clay.
This is 10 lead and 10 clay to make a single set of cushions. And this is discluding all of the gem dusts and plants I would have to go find as well.
To even piece this recipe together I had to have 2 browser windows open to cross-reference what fixtures need what dyes, and what the dye recipes are.
I wouldn't mind this if dyes were easier to make, if the recipes to make base dyes were simplified to have fewer ingredients. I don't think the system is broken, it just needs to be tweaked a little.
Party's post reminds me of how long it took me to make the OP, as Party references twice how difficult it was to navigate menus and figure out the path to dyes.
I tried at first to figure out what in the world a palette was in the game, and after a bit of IG browsing I just couldn't.
I was forced to tab from the game, open the wiki, and piece by piece put it all together over half an hour. I'm not sure if anyone else has struggled with this, or if its me, but if they have then maybe it's crazy over complicated if I need a web browser and tabs to ultimately copy/paste my description to a fixture. It felt like I was playing Factorio.
Irongron wrote:
[...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.
Sounds like the pattern of almost every recipe added after the 1st roun dof Carpentry updtes with the Enchanted Spear and Enchanted Large Shield, where the trend became adding tons of super super nested, cross trade recipes with tons of middle-man items whose existence was to do nothing but be combined into other middleman items across other trades, specifically to bloat the CP requirement on items. Things like this were why an Adamantine Tower Shield would be like 60k but an Enchanted Large Shield would be pushing 200k, if you could even find one. Because the time it takes to actually put them together across 3 different PCs, as well as the raw CP, is not worth the end product. And that was barely even justifiable as an endgame equipment piece, not just "cushions" or "a painting". It's an effort in frustration, but it appears to be the guiding philosophy behind most of the new recipe additions ever since that first round.
