Shadow mages should get a further boost to their dc on the shadow plane

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

This one is going to be popular with my fellow non shadow mages I'm sure, but honestly it makes total sense. The class is already somewhat hampered by super saves + pray, which is fine for the prime, but they really should be the kings of the shadow plane. I'd leave it up to the number crunchers to pick a number, but if it were my call and I had to make it right now I would lean toward +4 to the three schools they are known for.

[Kuma]

1: finally, we've all just openly admitted the feedback forum is the new suggestion box rather than framing it as feedback on existing systems
2: then regular mages should get a DC on the... prime? i guess? with how good a place SMs are in now this feels highly unnecessary. there isn't "more shadow weave" on the shadow plane, anyway, any more than there is "more weave" everywhere else. it's not as simplistic as that
edit: an argument could be made that abilities/spells with the shadow or darkness descriptor receive DC/CL boost of some sort but this wouldn't be tied to weaves and would imply the same to be applied to other planar areas

[Hinty]

The Shadow Weave (Other than the name) has nothing to do with the plane of shadows.

Sure, Shar lives there, but so does Mask, so should all Maskarans get a bonus too?

The Shadow referred to in the name is the shadowed areas not touched by the light of the weave. Now. Increased DCs or Caster levels on Shadow Illusion spells? That could certainly make some sense.

[Nitro]

Shadow mages are arguably a direct upgrade over wizards in the year of our lore 2020 as it is.

[AstralUniverse]

Shadow mages are arguably a direct upgrade over wizards in the year of our lore 2020 as it is.

With the death of time stop, I have to agree with this.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

As a wizard, not a fan of increasing DCs,

Power creep is real and slowly but surely power will continue to increase.

I would say perhaps in the shadow plane saves were naturally lower for normal individuals that arent Shadowmages/SD etc, or those that follow shar or Mask would be thematic. But could also come at the risk of PVE content becoming unbalanced as the NPCS in the shadowplane use a lot of these spells as well.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

>.> Are DC 44 Wail/Dominate and DC 43 Horrid Wilting really not in a good enough place that they need to go any higher, no matter where the restrictions?

Are we going to institute minuses to evil spells on good planes and vice versa? I'm down for pushing spell DC's as high as you want to go, the sky's the limit! But, to be completely honest, what I'd really like to see is bonus DC's lowered across the board, and universal saves removed from the enchantment and most of the loot matrix. Then after that, old gear with universal saves could be given the artefact treatment, with a dialogue allowing you to pick +2 to one specific save or +1 to two specific saves.

IMHO, this is the only real way to deal with the power-creep that makes even a slightly un-optimized DC caster incredibly subpar to any other version of caster, while still enabling people to kit for saves and have a chance of failing.

YMMV - but for the OP, not a fan of this particular idea, even though I'm pretty sure a shadowmage is in my future. (And a DC wizard and true flame are my present).

[Anomandaris]

As someone who’s played a lvl 30 SM and having played 2 non-DC casters, DC casters are definitely not superior. HIPS is the main draw here, not high DCs. With BG/Pally dips, spellcraft dips, wands/scrolls and use/day items with immunity given spells this type of PC is largely crowd control oriented and differs against a huge range of PCs. Also a lot of it is still chance even if it’s “viable” and rolling the dice is just that, direct damage is more reliable. Some new illusion spells have helped with this for sure though!

That’s fine with me, I enjoy the play style and rp, just saying I don’t think it’s superior to classes with evo. That’s why you see ppl trying weird cross class wiz/SD builds to get full casting and HIPS without SM.

I agree with mitigating access to saves over boosting DCs tho and adding to power creep. Better way to manage things IMO.

[Scurvy Cur]

Is it time to check off "lore-themed request to buff original poster's class with zero coherent mechanical justification" on the arelith forum bingo sheet?

[Anomandaris]

Is it time to check off "lore-themed request to buff original poster's class with zero coherent mechanical justification" on the arelith forum bingo sheet?

Probably! Good thing it lines up next to the “snarky rebuttal when a reasonable response to the actual idea would have been sufficient” box!

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

As someone who’s played a lvl 30 SM and having played 2 non-DC casters, DC casters are definitely not superior.

I agree- the word I used to describe them was "subpar," with an emphasis on the fact that a poorly optimized DC caster is "incredibly" so.

Still, I think it would be erroneous to argue that a DC 44wail/weird/dominate isn't potent, and that many builds wouldn't struggle to hit a "safe" range against multiple types of saving throws in this range; and this is before you lay down the mind fog cloud. DC 44 normally requires 10+ level 9 spell+epic spell focus plus a +19 casting modifier. Arelith's gifts and custom bonuses have put DC ranges normally reserved for level forty into the hands of level 30 characters, which forces a much harsher scrutiny on any potential DC adjustments that might be made to improve a DC caster's QoL (including my own with regards to this idea).

This is also the reason everyone's end-game gear includes a forklift's worth of custom enchanted gear with +1 unisaves on it if they want to be taken seriously.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Is it time to check off "lore-themed request to buff original poster's class with zero coherent mechanical justification" on the arelith forum bingo sheet?

Well, that sounds like a fun bingo. I got one too, snarky comments that don't really get the point of the thread, and mine is really, really full. This thread was doing a good job though at getting to the root of the issue. Saves are too high these days and -pray makes the gamble of trying to get that 15% at best a get that 15% twice or die. Good guys now have a reason to travel to the shadow plane, and if they start stomping the locals on the regular that is going to be a flavor fail tragedy of epic proportions. And honestly, it would be cool if there were some advantages to a "home turf" all over the server, but its also admittedly a huge undertaking.

So to the people who get the point, I say keep on keeping on, there are some interesting thoughts in here. To those of you who think this thread is about me making one class super powered for whatever reason (I did say I wasn't playing a shadowmage in the op) well I wouldn't tell you not to post even if I could, but you might be missing the opportunity to add to a real conversation

[Wrips]

People will always build for saves as long as save or die or save and almost certainly die spells exist.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

People will always build for saves as long as save or die or save and almost certainly die spells exist.

Of course they do. Of course they should. Just like people playing wizards will always get frustrated when 80% of their spells are fishing for ones and the ones that are lucky enough to maybe be able to win on a 4 or less get negated by an instant action. The question I was trying to tackle (even if it was for something very specific to a small piece of this puzzle) was not one of either side, but rather wherein lies the balance. Remember, if the large majority of these heavy saves builds get up close to a wizard, that's instant death too just like the spells.

[Wrips]

If people are fishing for ones in 80% of their spells with a Wizard, they are doing something wrong. You can easily target Will and Reflex with Enchantment and Evocation focus, for exemple. Especially if you combo them.

[ReverentBlade]

The lore justification isn't there regardless. Neither weave cares what Plane you are on. Some planes enhance certain schools or descriptors of magic, but that is independent of your power source.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

If people are fishing for ones in 80% of their spells with a Wizard, they are doing something wrong. You can easily target Will and Reflex with Enchantment and Evocation focus, for exemple. Especially if you combo them.

I actually agree with you 100% here, and when you add evo into the equation while I would like to see a slight tweak in the saves vs spells balance personally I think its close to fine as is. But this was about shadow mages, in the shadow plane. Reverent blade is likely right with the whole lore thing, but I personally think it would be awesome flavor. And I also honestly think that even if you went crazy and went with +4 saves to those three schools, it still would far from guarantee a shadow mage win. It would just tip the odds slightly in their favor on their home turf. So far I'm the only one I think, but that's cool. Just keep it in the back of your mind if things start to get wonky in shadow land.

[AstralUniverse]

I hope I'm getting the point of the thread when I'm telling you people's saves arent THAT high and you are very strong in or out of the shadowplane already. You shouldnt have more than 15-20% to kill someone with an instant death spell with no touch attack or anything. It would be terrible design. You also have hips. This cry-out for love because it makes no sense that people will rofl-stomp shadowmages in their home domain is simply not realistic. Just for comparison... my monk has 1 quivering palm per rest, he actually needs to hit his attack roll to even have a chance to make use of it and it currently stands on 34 dc vs mundane in a world where people dont invest as much as they used to into SC and SC gear, you're doing fine with your DCs vs Sc-including saves.