Saveless WoF Blind

[Skarain]

Off-topic but....

Can i also suggest that Melf Acid Sheath be removed from 2dmg per level to 1dmg per level, same as Fire elemental and gives 50% immunity to acid?
It's simply takes 1 cast from lesser spell breach to remove but it's OP because it's so painful to melee.

Do you know what else is painful? A melee (possibly with a +5 weapon bypassing Premo) beating the crap out of my AC-less (since screw EMA, Divine Shield & Tumble Dips) Sorcerer.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Can i also suggest that Melf Acid Sheath be removed from 2dmg per level to 1dmg per level, same as Fire elemental and gives 50% immunity to acid?
It's simply takes 1 cast from lesser spell breach to remove but it's OP because it's so painful to melee.

Archers exist.

Mages exist.

Use Magic Device exists.

250+ crit dmg 55 AB 800+ HP Barb/WM's exist.

The S key exists.

Stop trying to punish me just because you don't want to take the time to learn the game and how to counter stuff in PVP.

[Aren]

Proving once again it’s a viable tactic to post hyperbolic troll posts to fish for salt in these threads, with the sole purpose of getting them locked.
Stay on topic please.

[Aren]

Working
As
Intended.

Because I respect your opinion a great deal Oat, I want to ask why you don’t think Remove Blindness/ Deafness should add a short duration of blindness immunity post application?

[preggy]

I think we should nerf everything, max everyone except me at level 1 and remove all spellcasting.

Only then can we acheive balance.

[Jack Oat]

Working
As
Intended.

Because I respect your opinion a great deal Oat, I want to ask why you don’t think Remove Blindness/ Deafness should add a short duration of blindness immunity post application?

Because they're cheap as heck to buy/make and have a massive AoE, meaning you can just as easily spam Remove Blindness/Deafness off a potion as you can have a caster blast you with WoFs. There are also other counters such as Spell Mantles, True Seeing, and if you're a caster the whole slew of AoE spells you have at your own disposal to do things back even while blinded.

I don't think adding a duration disability to a 7th level spell with opportunity cost attached in the form of an easy-to-make potion is the answer. The ONLY way I would be a fan of adding a short duration of immunity is if there was a similar restriction placed on it such as what there is for Clarity, where sure- you can use it. But then you can't use it for even longer.

[Jack Oat]

I think we should nerf everything, max everyone except me at level 1 and remove all spellcasting.

Only then can we acheive balance.

t h i s ^

[Scurvy Cur]

TBH I don't think adding the save was even necessary to begin with. We've got it now, though, and I can live with it. Weakening WoF even further though feels like a pointlessly bad idea. Blind is a pretty soft CC that's easily dealt with.

Re: short duration blind immunity, I also think it's pretty unnecessary. Generally, if someone is willing to trade limited spell slots into my stack of potions, I'm winning the exchange.

[Anomandaris]

I don’t have a single pc that can cast WoF in any form. I think it’s fine as is...

It’s a very dangerous spell in single or group pvp. Maybe a slight duration immunity could be applied after remove blind, but probably not really needed. There are several counters available to every player/PC.

Stop trying to nerf everything that is spooky and might kill you. For the most part every class has its “schtick” and can be very dangerous if left unchecked and allowed to execute their attack plan.

Or we can just run around with wiffle bats and nerf guns...

[Aniel]

Can i also suggest that Melf Acid Sheath be removed from 2dmg per level to 1dmg per level, same as Fire elemental and gives 50% immunity to acid?
It's simply takes 1 cast from lesser spell breach to remove but it's OP because it's so painful to melee.

Archers exist.

Mages exist.

Use Magic Device exists.

250+ crit dmg 55 AB 800+ HP Barb/WM's exist.

The S key exists.

Stop trying to punish me just because you don't want to take the time to learn the game and how to counter stuff in PVP.

Worded a bit harsher than I would've put it but still well put. Applies to most calls for power reduction, I imagine.


On topic, Jack and Scurvy hit the nail on the head, I think.

[garrbear758]

I've waited awhile to post in this to see everyone's side, and as usual, this conversation has quickly devolved into a Looney Toons Rabbit Season / Duck Season bit. I don't think this should be touched as of right now, but if it does get changed, giving remove blindness pots a short duration immunity and a clarityesque cooldown is probably the best way to go.

With that said, for the people repeatedly saying to "git gud," that is an absolutely terrible attitude to have. There's around 3000 players on this server every month, and maybe 30 of them fall into the category of "gud." This is not Dark Souls. This is not Fortnite. There is no Arelith pro league. I understand that NWN PvP can require a surprising amount of knowledge to be good at, but that doesn't mean that "git gud" is the proper answer to everything. Instead of that, if you are one of the veteran players who knows their way around pvp, explain some effective strategies for countering whatever is being discussed.

For example, as Jack explained above, remove blindness is an AoE. I'll unashamedly admit that when first looking at this, I completely forgot that it still works as an AoE when in potion form. There are a lot of subtle nuances to this game and no one can or should be expected to keep track of all of them 100% of the time.

Anyways, an effective strategy to deal with WoF is to outdrink them, and in PvP, if you see one person starting to chug potions to counter it, you are then free to take other actions. If you are in a 1v1 situation, and if you are properly prepared, you will outlast their casts.

[NauVaseline]

I think we should nerf everything, max everyone except me at level 1 and remove all spellcasting.

Only then can we acheive balance.

Can i also suggest that Melf Acid Sheath be removed from 2dmg per level to 1dmg per level, same as Fire elemental and gives 50% immunity to acid?
It's simply takes 1 cast from lesser spell breach to remove but it's OP because it's so painful to melee.

Archers exist.

Mages exist.

Use Magic Device exists.

250+ crit dmg 55 AB 800+ HP Barb/WM's exist.

The S key exists.

Stop trying to punish me just because you don't want to take the time to learn the game and how to counter stuff in PVP.

this pretty much nails it, across the board.

right now we have a huge influx of new players who think they know how to play the game but honestly don't. It takes a while to master it. Before EE I had been playing a decade and I still learned new things about the mechanics of the game. Some people do pick it up really fast but there's a lot of people who don't, or they only learn a small slice of the NWN pie in the realm of their class and it's playstyle. I thought I knew everything when I started playing Arelith but really I was absolutely clueless.

So these people who are ignorant of the mechanics get spanked by something and because they're unaware of the avenue's they can explore to defend against whatever spanked them, the kneejerk reaction is to ask/suggest/scream 'nerf plz'. It's a pattern that I saw over numerous server's in NWN's glory age, but it had seemed to mostly die out until EE hit. Then we had another influx of new players. Then the EE ports to other platforms happened. Then COVID hit and we just seem to be swimming in new players.

And for the record, there is absolutely nothing wrong with ignorance. We all have something to learn. It is not the same as stupid. A person is only stupid when someone tries to dispel ignorance and the response is to ignore or double down into it instead.

With that said, for the people repeatedly saying to "git gud," that is an absolutely terrible attitude to have.

I have to strongly disagree with this. There is absolutely nothing wrong with encouraging people to improve their skills. Dumbing mechanics down to the lowest common denominator implies that they aren't capable of learning and honestly that'd feel more insulting to me than being told 'drink this potion instead scrub'. There's certainly a more tactful way to do it than some of the people in this thread have expressed but I will reiterate there is nothing wrong with encouraging people to learn/improve.

[garrbear758]

With that said, for the people repeatedly saying to "git gud," that is an absolutely terrible attitude to have.

I have to strongly disagree with this. There is absolutely nothing wrong with encouraging people to improve their skills. Dumbing mechanics down to the lowest common denominator implies that they aren't capable of learning and honestly that'd feel more insulting to me than being told 'drink this potion instead scrub'. There's certainly a more tactful way to do it than some of the people in this thread have expressed but I will reiterate there is nothing wrong with encouraging people to learn/improve.

I completely agree with you. My point was that saying "git gud' without actually educating people is not a good way to go about things, although I guess I didn't explain that very well.

Instead of that, if you are one of the veteran players who knows their way around pvp, explain some effective strategies for countering whatever is being discussed.

This is from that same paragraph.

[ReverentBlade]

Or learn IC and FOIG since we like to do that. Ask gladiators and PvP hounds. You'd be surprised at how the game is actually played at the top level.

[Biolab00]

Can i also suggest that Melf Acid Sheath be removed from 2dmg per level to 1dmg per level, same as Fire elemental and gives 50% immunity to acid?
It's simply takes 1 cast from lesser spell breach to remove but it's OP because it's so painful to melee.

Archers exist.

Mages exist.

Use Magic Device exists.

250+ crit dmg 55 AB 800+ HP Barb/WM's exist.

The S key exists.

Stop trying to punish me just because you don't want to take the time to learn the game and how to counter stuff in PVP.

Worded a bit harsher than I would've put it but still well put. Applies to most calls for power reduction, I imagine.


On topic, Jack and Scurvy hit the nail on the head, I think.

It seems my sarcasm works.
It simply takes time to learn to counter in pvp.

Why the heck that this topic still isn't locked when there's already counter play to WOF

[NPC Logger Number 2]

It seems my sarcasm works.

Looks like I got whoosh'd.

[AstralUniverse]

If i'm not wrong, WOF is already nerfed recently, it's been several months since the nerf.
So it's going to be nerf again?

Can i also suggest that Melf Acid Sheath be removed from 2dmg per level to 1dmg per level, same as Fire elemental and gives 50% immunity to acid?
It's simply takes 1 cast from lesser spell breach to remove but it's OP because it's so painful to melee.

Maybe there's many other more spells, let me think, i supposed i can find some too.

This is some next lvl trolling. You definitely had me fooled and I almost snapped and responded with something snarky yesterday as I was reading this. Nearly bashed my head in the wall too.

The problem is that players cant really tell if they are good or bad. Most of them are new and bad, but arent aware of it because they THINK they are fine, just by being somewhat experienced with 3.5 and nwn 10 years ago. The other problem is, that shooting snarky responses at them like "your feedback isnt valid, please git gud" is unfortunately the RIGHT response, but we need to be as nice as possible about it and we cant really expect them to git gud because of how old and buggy this game is. Bio-were's wiki is not as relevant anymore after EE and arelith wiki just doesnt keep up with the updates and the small undocumented changes. It takes REALLY long time to git gud by playing every class in multiple builds in the live server.

What I would appreciate is if people around here wouldnt continue arguing and explaining their ideas over and over after the contributors and veteran builders here have taken the time to not only read the feedback proposed but also respond with an educative answer because then it becomes a really annoying eye-roller of a thread. Like the Kensai thread for example.

[Tarkus the dog]

Spamming it is pretty busted. In a recent group fight I kept a few opponents blind for pretty much 60 seconds. I'm not saying this as a victim of the tactic, either.

[Dr. B]

With that said, for the people repeatedly saying to "git gud," that is an absolutely terrible attitude to have. There's around 3000 players on this server every month, and maybe 30 of them fall into the category of "gud." This is not Dark Souls. This is not Fortnite. There is no Arelith pro league. I understand that NWN PvP can require a surprising amount of knowledge to be good at, but that doesn't mean that "git gud" is the proper answer to everything.

Agreed, but I still think it's a very bad idea to balance the game so as to even the playing field between less skilled players an more skilled ones in PvP. The logical outcome of this sort of policy is for there to be no way to win PvP except by pure luck (which I think would in practice lead to more overall frustration about losing PvP), and people('s characters) should be able to formulate ways to win.

I'm not saying that's your proposal, but I worry that it's a seductive path where this line of thought leads.

[Ork]

I completely agree with you. My point was that saying "git gud' without actually educating people is not a good way to go about things, although I guess I didn't explain that very well.

We use to have a robust population of players that were very eager to teach new players how to "git gud", but there's no incentive to continue that line of support when the current culture of arelith and developer (not you) mindset has been hostile to those same individuals.

[magistrasa]

There are ways to balance a game and keep it robust and interesting while lowering the skill ceiling. Duration-immunity potion tweaks and fair saves to debilitating effects are not the end of PvP. The fact that so much of PvP is countered by one thing that you either have or you don't is pretty silly on its own, but not as silly as implying Having A Potion and Drinking A Potion is somehow a form of skill play that ought to be unquestioningly preserved. Rock paper scissors styled balance isn't really all that... good.

[Aniel]

Archers exist.

Mages exist.

Use Magic Device exists.

250+ crit dmg 55 AB 800+ HP Barb/WM's exist.

The S key exists.

Stop trying to punish me just because you don't want to take the time to learn the game and how to counter stuff in PVP.

Worded a bit harsher than I would've put it but still well put. Applies to most calls for power reduction, I imagine.


On topic, Jack and Scurvy hit the nail on the head, I think.

It seems my sarcasm works.
It simply takes time to learn to counter in pvp.

Why the heck that this topic still isn't locked when there's already counter play to WOF

I'll admit I didn't realize it was sarcasm because it read just like something someone would write with a straight face. Well played, though.

[Biolab00]

Worded a bit harsher than I would've put it but still well put. Applies to most calls for power reduction, I imagine.


On topic, Jack and Scurvy hit the nail on the head, I think.

It seems my sarcasm works.
It simply takes time to learn to counter in pvp.

Why the heck that this topic still isn't locked when there's already counter play to WOF

I'll admit I didn't realize it was sarcasm because it read just like something someone would write with a straight face. Well played, though.

Yea. I know i'm so amazing

The reason why i use Melf Acid Sheath is because it's a spell that is strong but has never been nerfed and will not be so.
Even if nerfed, it's not going to be 1dmg per level and 50% acid immunity thing because a Tier 4 spell elemental shield cannot be similar or stronger than a Tier 5 Melf sheath. After all, Tier 5 > Tier 4

I sorta think that it's the best spell to use as an example and because the impact is huge enough if i use this spell. I'm sure that i will trigger some people
And i want to trigger people so that new people can understand what is counterplay

[Shadowy Reality]

The comparison makes no sense though, it is not the same kind of counterplay. If you want to compare it to anything, compare it to Mind Fog.

Melf's Acid Sheath, Elemental Shield, Death Armour, even FoM, or Mind Blank, Premonition. None of those do anything to your enemy by themselves, they just prevent your enemy from doing certain things to you. You don't win because you have these, I can still beat you even without breaching any of those.

Thunderclap, Hold Person, Fear and Mind Fog are all spells that do something for your enemy, they prevent him from fighting, or make him fight at a disadvantage. If these spells still held, feared and dazed you for a smaller duration when you passed the save, then you could compare both.

Note how Mind Fog is similar to Word of Faith, both have two parts, one without a save, and another with a save. But Mind Fog the will save negates the daze part, it doesn't just make it a shorter duration daze. You could make the exact same argument for the daze part as people are doing for blind. You can simply remove it with a clarity potion, just as the blind can be removed with Remove Blindness, but I see no one advocate for this change.

Being blind is effectively a death sentence if you have nothing to counter it. There is nothing to "git gud" with this spell, it forces your opponent to basically chug potions and hope they are still alive by the time the cleric runs out of WoFs and in most cases, they won't be. This is a spell that ensures victory against anyone who has no idea what they are doing (despite their saves, or immunities) and is still extremely good even against those that know what they are doing.

Go in the PGCC with a cleric and any other build, and see how engaging and viable it is to try and survive three vampires attacking you while the cleric spams WoF and you chug potions for half a minute. Then repeat but without remove blindness potions.

[Zaphiel]

Please stop using "vampires will murder you while you are clearing blindness" argument. You don't HAVE TO win every fight. You MUST know when to retreat. Pressing "S" key rather than "W" key will always negate those vampires. Also, for 27 cleric / 3x build, vampire count have 33ab and normal vampires have 30 ab. Add +3 more ab if you want to see them have bull's str with ESF: Transmutation. Add +2 more ab if you want to see them have AOV. So in total, you are looking for 38ab (35 for normal vampires) which is very bad. Let's add +2 more ab because of summons will get flanking bonus. So, 40ab (37ab for other two vampire). Also Blind Fight prevents you to become flat-footed because of blindness. This brings up the importance of having decent AC, expertise / improved expertise, switching to Tower Shield when is needed for two-handers and not building glass cannons.

Edit:
Those numbers are with ESF: Necromancy. Non-Spell Foci caster summons will have -3 AB.