Loot Goblins

[NPC Logger Number 2]

I've noticed several threads on a variety of topics somehow resulted in discussing this topic so I thought it deserved its own thread.

Loot goblins.

Your wizard has recruited a handful of capable fighters, fully warded them, and carried them through one of the most dangerous dungeons on Arelith. The boss fight was hard, all of your fighters spent the majority of the battle laying on their backs, a couple of them nearly died, but with a Time Stop, a Mord's, and a few other high level spells that cost a lot of spell components, you managed to save them and defeat the half-demon half-dracolich whatever.

The fight is over. You see a vein of adamantine ore, but before you can even point it out one of the fighters is already mining it. That's fine, he probably needs it more than you. Another fighter runs to open the chest, triggering an epic gibberling dung trap that kills him because he only had 30 hp left. That's fine, this resurrection scroll only costs twenty thousand gold. You summon your fairy familiar, and let the party know you'll be opening the chest. Your pixie disarms the trap, then opens the lock...

Before you can un-possess your pixie though one of the fighters opens the chest. "Anything good?", you ask curiously. "Empty!", he shouts. You return to town exhausted, wait on the fighter you had carry the loot to sell everything, and are given a whopping three thousand gold for your efforts. Almost enough to pay for the spell components you used! You step away from the keyboard to take a break, come back later and check the local message board to see what's going on. Oh wow, in the fifteen minutes you were gone that fighter who opened the chest somehow found Pure Zardizak and is planning to auction it off later for millions of gold.

---------------------------------------------------------------

This story is not based on anything that happened to me recently or meant to call anyone out specifically, but I am sure for a lot of us it will be relatable. How many times has someone rushed to open a chest at the end of a dungeon and declared it empty? Do we know if it was really empty or if they just quickly grabbed whatever was in it? You have no way of knowing for sure and if you call them out on it and are wrong you're just going to seem like a paranoid jerk, if you call them out on it and you're right but they lie about it you still seem like a paranoid jerk. Since chests are empty half the time anyways and DM's have more important things to worry about there is never a way to know for sure unless you are the first one to open the chest.

I see a lot of complaints about people who solo dungeons, people say things like, "This is not a single player game!" My main argument for why I prefer to solo, is usually loot goblins, people who will rush to open the chest, grab everything inside, and yell that it is empty, sometimes even before the boss is dead. Because of loot goblins, myself and many other players avoid large groups of random people, preferring to either solo or only party with other players/characters we trust. I might like to play a healer cleric who focuses on supporting the rest of the party, but not if it means I'm most likely gonna get screwed half the time.

This is a suggestion, and it has been brought up before by others on here, but I'm just throwing it out there - We really need a notification for when someone removes something from a chest. It would go a long way in restoring faith and give us a way to deal with loot goblins IC other than refusing to party with anyone except our most bestest friends. This would mean less people soloing or forming small elitist groups, and more people interacting and role playing. Is your character a jerk IC who would try to steal the loot at the end of a hard dungeon? That is fine, but the rest of us should be able to see them do it IC, and deal with it IC, rather than resorting to isolation and OOC cliques to avoid it.

Feel free to post your thoughts. I just wanted to vent and put the idea out there again.

[Morgy]

I agree a little text message over the PC like 'Removes something from the container.' would be a welcome change.

[Algol]

Such looters exist in very game and I'd rather not see stuf like period of 30s of not lootin a chest after it has been opened in Arelith. Quickly pocketing the valuables in a chest might be the appropriate acttion for some characters anyway.

Wizards have more than enough skill points to spare, if this is such an important issue or you relying on pixie for chests is not a good idea.

But a text that reports something has been removed... Maybe a spot/listen vs pick pocket check? Could be nice... Ideally larger the item easier it'd be to spot it being removed.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I wish there was a way of making all loot character-specific (so Polly the Paladin and Ralph the Ranger each would see something different in the chest.)

I also miss the gold-on-touching-the-corpse mechanic. Surprisingly.

[Hazard]

Spot check?

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Quickly pocketing the valuables in a chest might be the appropriate acttion for some characters anyway.

Already addressed this in my OP.

Is your character a jerk IC who would try to steal the loot at the end of a hard dungeon? That is fine, but the rest of us should be able to see them do it IC, and deal with it IC, rather than resorting to isolation and OOC cliques to avoid it.

As for this...

But a text that reports something has been removed... Maybe a spot vs pick pocket check? Could be nice... Ideally larger the item easier it'd be to spot it being removed.

I'd rather not have it tied to skills for the sake of transparency but it could definitely be done this way. My issue with tying it to skills is that it will still leave some of us distrusting our fellow players, especially rogues.

[Ork]

And so we ever advance towards actually being an MMO.

[Shadowy Reality]

And so we ever advance towards actually being an MMO.

Agreed, big no no to instanced loot, I do not miss the days of queues to touch the corpses, it was bad enough as it was.

There are two things that can be done here. On a roleplay level, when they rush over and don't share? Confront them, it makes for a great moment. Or don't confront them, and let them die next time, if your PC is more evil aligned.

To tackle the issue with people lying about it. I would like to see something like Ravenloft does, where you get a brief description when PCs acquire something. Maybe Spot and Lore could be used to discern more specific details about the item.

To be fair, I think the first issue occurs much more often than the second, or at least I hope so.

[Hazard]

And so we ever advance towards actually being an MMO.

What level is flying mounts?

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I hear what you are saying, and on servers where gold is more difficult to attain I might even concede this is an issue. Here on arelith gold is crazy abundant, to the point where unless you are trying to 5% everything you own you are likely going to have more then you need by 30. And even with 5%ing stuff it will only take you a few months of going out as a crew of 30s to get what you need. The reason why I bring all of that up is to say that loosing one piece of loot because you had a "loot goblin" with you is not that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. Deal with it IC, and don't travel with that person anymore if you are certain they are stealing more then their fair share.

As for the bluff vs spot thing, that can be kind of neat. We had something like that on my old server for chests. But again, with the abundance of gold on Arelith im not sure the time and effort it would take to set it up is worth it. It's not a bad suggestion though, so toss it in the suggestion pile when it reopens would be my advice and try not to worry about the little things. Until you can buy a round of beers for your friends at the local pub with this gold, or get yourself a new Aston Martin, its really not that important.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

And so we ever advance towards actually being an MMO.

Why? Because people who choose to play jerks IC might have to face consequences for their character's actions? Because it might stop people from metagaming? Because it might give people a reason to team up and interact with people outside their OOC discord clique? I don't know what you're getting at here.

Agreed, big no no to instanced loot, I do not miss the days of queues to touch the corpses, it was bad enough as it was.

There are two things that can be done here. On a roleplay level, when they rush over and don't share? Confront them, it makes for a great moment. Or don't confront them, and let them die next time, if your PC is more evil aligned.

To tackle the issue with people lying about it. I would like to see something like Ravenloft does, where you get a brief description when PCs acquire something. Maybe Spot and Lore could be used to discern more specific details about the item.

To be fair, I think the first issue occurs much more often than the second, or at least I hope so.

I do not want instanced loot and never suggested that. Scarcity is needed for a healthy economy and instanced loot would be exploited to Hell and back with large parties and alts. The issue is people lying and having no way of telling IC. So unless your character is Chaotic/Evil with thirty levels of murder hobo there's not much you can do other than make an Snuggybear of yourself.

Deal with it IC, and don't travel with that person anymore if you are certain they are stealing more then their fair share.

Again, the issue is there's no real way of dealing with it IC. A notification something was taken from the chest would give players the means to sort this out themselves IC.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

While there is a line between what your character knows and what you know that is difficult to balance sometimes, this is not one of those occasions. If you the player feel like someone is stealing from your group, then its fair game for your character to think that too. Hell, even if you are way off base that can lead to some interesting interaction. You don't always have to be 100% right after all, we as people never are so why should our characters be?

[NPC Logger Number 2]

While there is a line between what your character knows and what you know that is difficult to balance sometimes, this is not one of those occasions. If you the player feel like someone is stealing from your group, then its fair game for your character to think that too. Hell, even if you are way off base that can lead to some interesting interaction. You don't always have to be 100% right after all, we as people never are so why should our characters be?

Most Lawful/Good characters are not going to corpse bash someone because they SUSPECT they MIGHT have done something. Also, what if the chest really was empty and the player really was intending to make sure the loot was split fairly? People should not be forced to metagame and base their role play on OOC assumptions.

[Skarain]

Sad to hear that such happen to you. My advice is to not let it bother you too much, but to take the situation IC.

Nothing prevents you from asking said fighter where they got the shard from. Who was with them. Be suspicious if you have a reason to be suspicious. After all, you barely know the person.

You can also be more insistent on doing the looting. Account for it with your gearing, having some set pieces with STR or an extra Bull's Strength prepared. Most of loot items aren't that heavy and you can always trade the heavier things later for the Fighter to carry.

It is more efficient use of time, too, for a caster to loot. Melee and archers are who deal the real damage. Casters bring the buffs and spells that turn the tide of battles, which may not be needed every turn.

Just my few cents. Ultimately, that player will eventually either ruin their reputation or have to change their ways. Arelith is still a small pond compared to MMO's, and the players do have a long memory.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

While there is a line between what your character knows and what you know that is difficult to balance sometimes, this is not one of those occasions. If you the player feel like someone is stealing from your group, then its fair game for your character to think that too. Hell, even if you are way off base that can lead to some interesting interaction. You don't always have to be 100% right after all, we as people never are so why should our characters be?

Most Lawful/Good characters are not going to corpse bash someone because they SUSPECT they MIGHT have done something. Also, what if the chest really was empty and the player really was intending to make sure the loot was split fairly? People should not be forced to metagame and base their role play on OOC assumptions.

Honestly, it sounds like you want your character to be above caring about this sort of thing but since you care about it you want to force everyone to stop playing the game the way some (admittedly not me) find enjoyable so your character can remain pristine in your eyes without getting screwed over. I don't think any part of the world works that way, including this video game

I also didn't say anything about killing the guy over a piece of loot.

[Ork]

You know you do make a lot of sense. Maybe trying discrete looting to pickpocket vs spot similar to PnP. We already gamify spotters spotting sneakers.

[Halibutthead]

my answer to a group that does things like that is: "do not group with them." if you have friends, tell them not to group with those individuals who would screw their party over so overtly. (though in a more realistic scenario than the OP, there might be some grey area).

i wouldn't be against the idea of a message saying "x has removed an item from the chest" or whatever, but this isn't the suggestion box. still, i think this needs to be handled IC.

also, consider unlocking the chest and leaving the trap on for a few minutes. hilarity ensues on occasion. though the best answer is taking a few levels of rogue and getting the skills yourself, if you're going to be doing the rogue's job in the party

[Marisakis]

my answer to a group that does things like that is: "do not group with them."

And my answer is, "You don't know.."

still, i think this needs to be handled IC.

Currently, that is impossible, unless you're going to ICly accept that noone ever removes anything from any container, for any reason, because you're not being told that these things happen. And so it doesnt happen. What you see is what you get, right?

[Halibutthead]

sorry for the confusion, i meant "don't group with them *going forward*"

and you can tell when someone runs up to the chest after you open it, so...

[Scurvy Cur]

my answer to a group that does things like that is: "do not group with them."

And my answer is, "You don't know.."

still, i think this needs to be handled IC.

Currently, that is impossible, unless you're going to ICly accept that noone ever removes anything from any container, for any reason, because you're not being told that these things happen. And so it doesnt happen. What you see is what you get, right?

Your answer is both wrong and a gross misinterpretation of the WYSIWYG rule. WYSIWYG is a rule for resolving situations where what players try to emote happening and what you as a player can observe happening are in conflict. WYSIWYG boils down to: if the system gives you a concrete piece of information, then you may act on that piece of information, despite any other player's attempt to emote around it. WYSIWYG is to stop people from saying stuff like "I know I summoned a balor just now, but I'm roleplaying it as an ancestral guardian spirit that just sometimes looks like a big red dude with a sword" or "I know my character model is a goblin, but I'm disguised as a jaundiced halfling" (both actual examples I've come across IC). The rule does not mean that "unless the system gives you a message confirming that it happened, it didn't happen".

You may not get an IC notification that the chests are being looted, but your character is not reliant on a system message to see a guy run to the chest, open it and proclaim it empty. It's entirely reasonable to derive IC suspicion that the character is cheating the party in this situation. In fact, WYSIWYG is on your side in this situation. In-game, you saw the guy rush to the chest and open it. He cannot subsequently roleplay that neither of these things happened, despite in game appearances.

If the guy runs up to all the chests and declares all of them empty when he gets there, and you ICly don't believe him, warn him to stop or you'll yeet him, kick him from the party, tell him to find his own way home, and/or kill him and leave him to respawn.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

You may not get an IC notification that the chests are being looted, but your character is not reliant on a system message to see a guy run to the chest, open it and proclaim it empty. It's entirely reasonable to derive IC suspicion that the character is cheating the party in this situation. In fact, WYSIWYG is on your side in this situation. In-game, you saw the guy rush to the chest and open it. He cannot subsequently roleplay that neither of these things happened, despite in game appearances.

If the guy runs up to all the chests and declares all of them empty when he gets there, and you ICly don't believe him, warn him to stop or you'll yeet him, kick him from the party, tell him to find his own way home, and/or kill him and leave him to respawn.

I'll counter with this argument: SOMEONE has to open the chest first. The chest IS going to be empty half the time regardless of whether or not anyone in the party is a loot goblin, because another party could have cleared that dungeon 10 minutes earlier, and the loot hasn't respawned yet. So using your logic, every time someone opens a chest and it is empty, we should accuse them of being a thief, threaten to PVP them, slander them on message boards, etc. If this is how it is going to be, I don't want to group with anyone ever, except for a select few OOC friends that I trust. A notification that someone took an item from a chest is not going to stop anyone from RPing as a thief or a jerk, but it will ensure the few people who pull stunts like that might have to face consequences for their actions IC without forcing everyone to OOCly distrust and suspect everyone else constantly.

[magistrasa]

Paranoia centered around theft can be a fun character quirk if you're willing to play it out. Predicate your participation in a party on the condition that you open all the chests - or at least the ones you're unlocking and disarming - if you suspect often enough that you're getting shafted, or if you're in a group with suspicious individuals. Most people already double-cast TS before entering a quarter, so I imagine it's not a far stretch to push that caution a little further. It can be as simple as joining your party mate to look at every chest, even if they're the one doing the looting. Trust me, that's usually dissuasive enough to handcuff even the stickiest fingers. Once a thief thinks they've caught some heat, they learn to be on their best behavior real quick.

This story is not based on anything that happened to me recently or meant to call anyone out specifically, but I am sure for a lot of us it will be relatable.

The fact that there's a kinda stalwart resistance to changing one's behavior and adopt preventative measures, to instead advocate for a systemic change, while presenting a hypothetical extreme case that OP says hasn't even happened to them... is honestly kinda weird. "This didn't happen but I bet it has happened and does happen and something MUST be done about it! But nothing should be done by me, despite the fact that my clairvoyance has allowed me to predict its inevitability!" This might be a bit too speculative, but I imagine the resistance to the idea of not grouping with people you suspect to be thieves is because you don't want to seem like you have no trust in other people, or at least you don't want to act in a way that perpetuates that mistrust. You don't want to be put in a place where you feel like mistrust is justified, because after all, isn't it better and easier to be able to trust the people around you? But if the mere idea of encountering this rare happenstance really bothers you that much - and let's be honest, it is exceedingly rare - obviously the mistrust is already deep-set to begin with. The mistrust may even find other outlets if this hole were to eventually be plugged. There's a certain irony to saying that you don't want to blacklist suspicious people because you "don't know" if they really are loot goblins, implying it would be unfair to make that assumption... while seeming to make the assumption that it's a rampant enough issue that the server needs to change to prevent it.

Though, for the loot goblins on all ends of the alignment spectrum who are watching this thread, I have some suggestions for how to pocket an item or two while still making things fun for the people careless enough to let it happen:
1) Only take one item out of a dungeon run. Hide something quickly and take the time to rearrange the loot to make it look like nothing's missing. The handicap makes the crime way more exciting.
2) If you're the party lockpicker, try and keep the thieving to only the chests you're cracking open. Call it a service charge! Phone companies slip in hidden fees all the time, so why not you!
3) Emote rummaging through the chest, perhaps pointing out that you're taking more time than usual. Think about it realistically - you wouldn't be able to instantaneously and discretely stuff away entire armor sets. If you're audacious enough to steal from the people helping you through a dungeon, at least have the courtesy to take a moment to play it out.
3a.) Bonus: Something I like to do after having stolen something from a chest, especially with low-Bluff characters, is have my character fiddle with their pockets for a while after, and pause down the hall to -crouch and "rearrange their bags." It usually results in an actual roleplay moment - sometimes for the first time in an entire dungeon run. You know how caught up people can get in clearing rooms and looting corpses, so it can be a great opportunity to slow down while also offering due diligence on giving people the opportunity to notice your odd behavior.
4) Don't keep what you stole. If you notice that one member of the party was doing way more legwork than anyone else, or if you've simply decided that they're your favorite for whatever reason, hand them the goods and give them a wink. If you wanna get overt with it, you've created a bond with that person through a shared secret. If you wanna stay subtle, now you've got a useful person in your pocket who feels like they owe you something.

Thieves should absolutely create roleplay around their crime when they can. But at the same time - and I'm sorry for the strong wording - I really think it's just selfish and small-minded to expect to simply be told when it happens. There's give and take (figuratively and literally) on both sides of the equation, and when it's done well, criminal roleplay has some of the best experiences you'll find on the server.

[Scurvy Cur]

Thieves should absolutely create roleplay around their crime when they can. But at the same time - and I'm sorry for the strong wording - I really think it's just selfish and small-minded to expect to simply be told when it happens. There's give and take (figuratively and literally) on both sides of the equation, and when it's done well, criminal roleplay has some of the best experiences you'll find on the server.

And on the flipside, building high-trust relationships should also be an IC process. Part of the experience of levelling each character really ought to be figuring out who they can trust, who they'll travel with and watch, and who they'll never party with again. It makes reliable IC friendships that much more valuable.

[xanrael]

I don't think it would be unreasonable for a pickpocket versus spot/listen check or something similar to palm an item from the chest. Seems like something that would require some skill to pull off.

[Marisakis]

A lot of stuff

Alright, I can see how I'm misinterpreting the rules. But still think there's a possible issue.

Assuming the worst, the player emotes nothing (because he's a nasty loot goblin and wants it all for himself). That player thereby suggests that nothing out of the ordinary is happen. I don't see how a conscious lack of emoting something being done is any different from emoting falsely. They both impact players, on an IC and OOC level. Sure, doing so is a break of the 'be nice' rule. But there's no way to know for sure. Indeed, there's plenty of avenues to deal with it in character, but that's not the crux of the problem.
It's an OOC problem, caused by OOC greed. If the thief emotes properly, there's no problem and everyone gets a chance to respond in kind.