Epic Level Writ Giver Feedback

[Good heavens Miss Sakamoto]

First, I want to express how glad I am to see epic writs come to the server. The writs are one of the best newish features we’ve got, and they add a good slice of narrative to the levelling grind. Great job adding new ones for the 21-25 range.

There’s a problem, though.

As of now, you get your epic level writs one of two ways. First, you can go to Gloom, which bar breaking in through a high-DC and probably intensely FOIG lock, is closed off to anyone not attached to the settlement that owns it. If you can’t get into Gloom, your other option is to hit up an undead writ giver in a settlement with the most unambiguously evil aesthetic on the server (Andunor at least has the virtue of mixing a lot of ordinary folks in with the monsters, Shadow Wharftown by contrast is populated by an assortment of shades, undead guard NPCs, and a Hag).

This puts anyone who is good-aligned, or even neutral-but-uncomfortable-working-for-monsters-aligned, but not a citizen of whichever settlement currently owns Gloom, in sort of an awkward situation. They can skip epic writs, or they can quasi-suspend their RP and gloss over the fact that they’re doing business for some exceptionally unsavory people.

Frankly, I suspect we’re going to see a lot of RP-lite suspension of character integrity as good/neutral surface characters lowkey decide that the 21-26 writ train is an OOC push through a slice of content that doesn’t fit their character, but beats grinding the levels the hard way. I also think that this would be an unfortunate and entirely undesirable module design outcome; the module should not encourage or reward people for breaking character by giving them a benefit that is markedly superior to any other alternatives. It’s the OG cage fight all over again.

Thankfully, it’s pretty easy to fix. Any of the following three options would do the trick.
1) Move the Gloom guy to the spot just outside the gates, near the shops. This makes him generally accessible to every player.
2) Copy the Shadow Wharf NPC, reskin him as something less overtly monstrous, and stick him in Shadow Cordor. Again, this becomes generally accessible to every player. Shadow Cordor’s not a nice neighborhood, but at least it’s not literally patrolled by undead.
3) As 2, except stick the morally ambiguous quest giver in the Shadowvar Trade Outpost. Roughly the same rationale. The Outpost is a bad place, but it’s at least a bad place with strictly-enforced neutrality that’s plausible as a place of business.
There are probably other ways to resolve this, but these are the ones that seemed easiest to me.

Thanks for reading.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I can't really say much on the location of the writ giver on the prime, as I assume there is a reason but it does seem somewhat wonky that a writ giver for what is the only 21-25 writs is behind locked doors. I'm all for settlement specific writs, but this in my opinion wasn't the place to do it. Of course, you can get these writs by going to shadow plane, which transitions nicely into the rest of the points you were making.

First let me say kudo's for thinking about this sort of thing. One of the best rp tools you have at your disposal as good guys heading into someplace overwhelmingly evil is the gravity of your choice, and its often swapped out for things like "I am going to go train in the abyss, ect., want to come?" like its a trip to the local LA Fitness. I don't say that to pick on anyone, there are roleplayer's I have the utmost respect for when it comes to their level of skill that do this. Just pointing out how silly it sounds.

That being said, you got one thing wrong that may shift your bleak outlook about going to the shadowplane to get writs. Shadows in the shadow plane are not undead, they are outsiders, beings of that plane. So, while I personally think players should respect the gravity of that decision, Since going to the shadowplane is not the same as a quick boat ride to brog or something, its really not as bad you are reading it. I couldn't tell you that writ giver's alignment***, but he is paying you to go hunt down evil things. As a guy hopelessly devoted to good, that can't be all bad can it?





***A quick theory about writ givers. The guild is definitely evil. They go around figuring out not only the obvious threats but the hidden ones too of the island, likely extort the local towns for money to take care of it, then pawn it off on you the adventurer to do likely at a fraction of what they got paid for it in the first place. EVIL! (or capitalists, depends on your perspective)

[helitron]

There are epic writs locked behind non-evil/non-chaotic alignment and certain classes at the RH. Plus you get a nice ring. My last character greatly profited from this.

Now, I don’t see a problem with this new writ-agent being in a perceived evil location (Shadow wharftown) and therefore excluding paladins and other good-aligned classes from going there.

[Zaphiel]

Shadows in the shadow plane are not undead, they are outsiders, beings of that plane.

FR Wiki: Shadow Alignment: Chaotic Evil.

I doubt a good aligned character would want to go there.

Edit:// They are undead. I believe you tried to meant "Shade". Regardless, it is evil aligned(mostly) plane and most folk wouldn't feel comfortable to get a writ from there. Especially from a NPC who uses Ultroloth commander model.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Shadows in the shadow plane are not undead, they are outsiders, beings of that plane.

FR Wiki: Shadow Alignment: Chaotic Evil.

I doubt a good aligned character would want to go there.

Edit:// They are undead. I believe you tried to meant "Shade". Regardless, it is evil aligned(mostly) plane and most folk wouldn't feel comfortable to get a writ from there. Especially from a NPC who uses Ultroloth commander model.

You know, I looked but I can't find anything on this, so I could be wrong. But I was always under the impression (likely because somewhere along the line I was told this) that there is a difference between the undead version of a shadow and shadows from the shadow plane.

As far as going there to get a writ as a good guy, well...its not optimal, but since its the only place to get high level writs at this point (I suspect this won't always be true) I personally think warping roleplay to make it fit is acceptable. I do hope people respect their surroundings of course, but at its core its all just a game. Your point about pally's (and pirates for that matter) having iirc about 25% of their writs involving epic material is well taken, but they aren't repeatable. To say that they should be disadvantaged because the only place to get epic writs at the moment doesn't seem fair. And when I say disadvantaged, I understand that some people dislike the idea of writs and don't see the purpose of them at all, but they do help players like me that would rather beat their head against the wall repeatedly then circle grind dungeons. I personally find looping back to beat the same monsters over and over again far more immersion breaking then fishing for sketchy at best reasons to go take writs from a shadow.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

So I just took a quick trip to the shadow land to see whats what, and all of the shadows there are named Shade, which are indeed different. The writ giver is a "shadow hunter", and while I have no idea what that is from lore it does have a description. Its racial type is Aberration, which tells me its druids not pallys that would take the biggest issue with getting writs from him (admittedly pally still falls under the sketchy department).

I still stand by my point that its just a game, and would never fault a druid for taking a writ from them as long as its the only option, but here in the system of vampires we are a facts first institution.

[Radki]

Well, don't we have Radiant Heart for good/neutral folks that offers writs up to 30? Of course it is limited for pallies, clerics and other bunch of goodoers, heck, they even get cool ring for doing those writs, but not every place is for everyone. Especially for epics, there should be any kind of risk, remember that a large part of druids are humility reward farms anyway. Probably it will be a matter of time when there will be some widely available writs at surface, so just wait a little. Actually, I think that a counter place for Radiant is actually quite good, even if some paladins might feel quite dissapointed, they can go to shadow asylum by the arm of Radiant Heart.

[Irongron]

I'm going to be adding epic writs very gradually, at a number of locations. This is not something I'm concentrating on, and happened first on the Shadowplane actually because I was updating Gloom to give it more of a unique purpose.

Others will happen, elsewhere, but not spending the next few weeks on writ additions.

[Good heavens Miss Sakamoto]

First, thanks for engaging on this point, BSitV. I'm going to try to respond to as much of what you say in the time that I've got, because I think it's worth replying to. Apologies in advance if it feels like I'm picking apart your post, that's not the intention; I'm genuinely glad to have this conversation with you.

First let me say kudo's for thinking about this sort of thing. One of the best rp tools you have at your disposal as good guys heading into someplace overwhelmingly evil is the gravity of your choice, and its often swapped out for things like "I am going to go train in the abyss, ect., want to come?" like its a trip to the local LA Fitness. I don't say that to pick on anyone, there are roleplayer's I have the utmost respect for when it comes to their level of skill that do this. Just pointing out how silly it sounds.

I, too, hate seeing "haha i'm going to hunt in the abyss want to come?" RP. There's a difference, though, between heading to a very evil location to grind and conducting business under the request and direction of a monster. The RP explanation for the former usually pretty easy: "Fiends slain on their home plane are dead for good, it's crusading time"/ we need to drive the devils back a step from the Last Bastion to prevent them from getting too strong on this side of the gate/ I have no idea what the illithid are up to but it's probably bad and I think we should exterminate them before they get too far along/ etc". The RP justification for the latter does not come so easily.

A quick theory about writ givers. The guild is definitely evil. They go around figuring out not only the obvious threats but the hidden ones too of the island, likely extort the local towns for money to take care of it, then pawn it off on you the adventurer to do likely at a fraction of what they got paid for it in the first place. EVIL! (or capitalists, depends on your perspective)

It's plausible, as a theory, but entirely headcanon. It's just as easy to theorize that they serve as an interface between legitimate business interests whose profit margins are hurt by both overt and hidden threats to island stability and adventurers who can solve the problem, and that they, for a cut of the fee, handle the logistics of finding, hiring, and assigning adventurers to go fix the problems. No muss, no fuss, no shady extortion needed. Such an organization is probably not in a morally different space than, say, a real estate brokerage.

I still stand by my point that its just a game, and would never fault a druid for taking a writ from them as long as its the only option...

Seems kind of like you run into some issues with the "always IC" rule if your reply to the current situation is "Eh, it's just grind, break character if you like". To me, this is particularly unsatisfying response, and suggests that my concern about the RP-lite-ification of the server is probably well-founded.

For reference:http://nwnarelith.com/index.php/faq

Full and total IC behavior from all players at all times is one of the few foundations of Arelith that are so important that we have an explicit rule about it, so I'm not sure "eh just go take those writs for now who cares" properly addresses the concerns.

Well, don't we have Radiant Heart for good/neutral folks that offers writs up to 30? Of course it is limited for pallies, clerics and other bunch of goodoers, heck, they even get cool ring for doing those writs, but not every place is for everyone. Especially for epics, there should be any kind of risk, remember that a large part of druids are humility reward farms anyway. Probably it will be a matter of time when there will be some widely available writs at surface, so just wait a little. Actually, I think that a counter place for Radiant is actually quite good, even if some paladins might feel quite dissapointed, they can go to shadow asylum by the arm of Radiant Heart.

It's absolutely not comparable, so let's not set up a false equivalency.

RH writs are a parallel to the Sencliff writs, which can be taken only once per writ per character. By contrast, the generally available writs can be spammed.

The "not every place is for everyone" point is fine to make, but it's not fine if one of the places that's "not for everyone" gives a significant advantage. I hate the RH and would love to see it nuked from orbit, and applauded the removal of the old beast belt for precisely the same reason.

If IG plans to open up more writs elsewhere, that's well and good. I'm glad the team is aware of the problem, and will go back to circlegrinding the promised land spooky ghost island for 9ish levels and/or asking a friend to help me bust into gloom.

[Apokriphos]

While I am ambivalent to the increase in ways to reduce difficulty in reaching maximum level (and especially reward farming), new additions to the world always excite me.

Having said that,

• I believe that writs generated by a Shadow Aberration should likely only be mechanically accessible to neutral and evil aligned PCs.

This would be similar to how underdark PCs are disallowed writ access on the surface. There is no narrative rationale without significant handwaving that would allow Paladins and strongly good aligned PCs to aid in a significant way (through writ completion) the members of a prominently evil plane.

On that note, I think it would be quite interesting to see writs that require Outright Evil Acts to be accomplished for their completion. Such as burning down of an orphanage, or murdering innocent civilians, stealing from the poor farmers lining the coasts, etc.

Reminding PCs that their character's alignment is a willful and intentional choice, and rewarding them when they act accordingly.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Your post is all good man, the only responses that get under my skin are the ones that start with "you only feel this way because you play x", and really getting past that is as easy as realizing that those people are just incapable of getting past what's best for them to see the big picture and as a result they project that on others. We also seem to agree on a lot, but since you singled something out as particularly troubling I will elaborate. But first I should say that my opinion on this has already changed somewhat, which I will get to down the line.

To me, writs are important. I like to go through dungeons at my own pace, and while I would prefer a group finding one that likes to rp through a dungeon and try different tactics as opposed to light speeding it proves difficult at times. Not always, there are some great players out there, but they aren't always around. As a result I often find myself alone, since while I do miss the RP at least I have more fun then running through would give me. Perhaps when I have ten years of arelith under my belt and the server seems like old hat to me, this will change, but as it stands now I would much rather play things my way. Why this relates to the topic at hand is because since I consider writs so important to my style of play, I would not want to deny someone the ability to do the ONLY writs available at that level range, assuming they respect the gravity of their choice.

What changed my mind was my first encounter with paladins out in the shadows. They stumbled upon me with my dead out, and pvp ensued. I was outnumbered and I'm incredibly weak to the save builds (along with almost everyone else), so I went down fast, stuff happens. But the way they played it you would think I was marching through the streets of Cordor, which to me tells me they were not respecting the gravity of their choice. It seems hypocritical to smite me for my dead (which paladins are supposed to do!) then go turn in writs to get paid by an aberration. This got me thinking, how much bend is really acceptable? And the truth of it is, none of it. The Aberration probably shouldn't even give out writs to paladins or druids.

So, to TLDR it, my opinion on the matter has recently changed with the caveat that I wish there were writs in areas that make sense for good guys sooner rather then later.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

On that note, I think it would be quite interesting to see writs that require Outright Evil Acts to be accomplished for their completion. Such as burning down of an orphanage, or murdering innocent civilians, stealing from the poor farmers lining the coasts, etc.

Reminding PCs that their character's alignment is a willful and intentional choice, and rewarding them when they act accordingly.

I would absolutely LOVE to see stuff like that.

[skellyboi]

I actually really like the location, after playing around with them over the past few days. Wharftown was almost abandoned for the most part before, but now I've encountered a good many PCs there, and almost all of them "shady" types. It's pretty cool to see Shadow Wharftown getting some real traffic.

[Complex]

Cloaker Embassy: calls for you to kill an 'ancient cloaker' when it should be a 'Cloaker Lord'. Ancient cloaker is a random trash mob while the Lord is the actual boss that always spawns inside the room. Also, as cowboy reported on a different topic, the portal is broken and takes you to the OOC server selection area.

[Inf]

Good characters making deals with dubious beings in Shadowfell feels strange to me. Like say, as soon as you portal into Shadovar? You're surrounded by Pale Masters and Shadow Mages. Wharftown isn't much better. It's hard to imagine a quest giver a paladin would want to deal with existing there.

I would prefer more epic quests to be created instead of twisting existing ones to fit everyone's alignment tastes. Something equivalently high level like the Radiant Heart writs but without the alignment checks.

I suppose you could have some kind of hidden good actor in Shadow Cordor. Offering you tasks that he can't complete by himself? That could work with the reskin idea.