Disguise (Meta)

[Anomandaris]

I don't want this to start a big tangent about re-vamping disguise, just wanted to throw a couple thoughts out there. Repeatedly pinging someone's disguise to get a lucky disguise break seems to be kind of meta. Also "inspecting" a PC, especially to pierce a disguise, is a mechanic that ~should~ be rp'd even though you don't have to (maybe people disagree, feel free to state so if that's the case).

If you're casually strolling on by across the way, heading in another direction (not even facing the PC in question) don't use it as a chance for a quick inspect to break PC's disguise. It's pretty meta. If you want to try to bust a disguise, walk up and rp actually "inspecting" the pc, even if just super discreetly by looking in their direction or getting closer.

Lastly is someone in front of you "inspecting you" a noticeable event? At present we roll off for being spotted sneaking. If I'm talking to someone and I get a disguise break attempt is it reasonable to assume my PC notices some perhaps "enhanced interest" from the other PC? If I were to respond with a "staring is not polite" or similar, considering they're "eyeballing" me would that be metagaming the disguise notification or ok?

[Xerah]

Repeatedly complaining about people using the mechanics to determine things their PC would know is not nice at all.

[Aradin]

You know what would be neat is a specific command, like -inspect, that PCs would have to make in order to break a disguise. Using that ability would, by animation/public text, make it obvious that you're inspecting the disguised person. Otherwise a typical examine just shows whatever disguised description the disguiser has written.

[Xerah]

You know what would be neat is a specific command, like -inspect, that PCs would have to make in order to break a disguise. Using that ability would, by animation/public text, make it obvious that you're inspecting the disguised person. Otherwise a typical examine just shows whatever disguised description the disguiser has written.

That existed back in the day and was pretty terrible.

The "disguiser" doesn't go around emoting his disguise use any more than a looker needs to emote looking at someone. The mechanics exist to allow for this given that our characters are not us and can pick up on things that a normal person wouldn't.

[Anomandaris]

Repeatedly complaining about people using the mechanics to determine things their PC would know is not nice at all.

Am I guilty of repeated complaints? Did anything I write come across as "not nice?"

From a RP perspective if you take a look at someone and nothing seem's amiss, it's likely one would not be continuously inspecting them with a fine tooth comb. It's the OOC knowledge (i.e. comment about it being meta) that said PC is wearing a disguise via disguise tag, that prompts the "Player" and thus the PC to continue to attempt the roll over and over. As I understand it this is commonly accepted as decent player etiquette?

Granted an exception to this logic sounds reasonable if you have a compulsively paranoid PC you're rping as constantly inspecting everyone, or your PC just so perceptive that nearly standing near someone could be rationalized as being akin to a continuous inspection roll. Otherwise... the aforementioned logic seems reasonable no? I see your statement about dynamic perception of our PC's, however there is a noted difference between "seeing someone" and "inspecting someone" to pierce a well crafted disguise. Or maybe there isn't... *shrug*

It would appear you disagree. Rather than a pithy response directed at me personally for (at least what I attempted to make) a neutrally toned post for discussion (in the OOC discussion forum no less), I'd be pleased to hear your articulation of how using this mechanic of inspecting disguises repeatedly is not a bit meta. If not no problem, thanks for contributing nonetheless.

Edit: Taking the rationale one step further, oftentimes unless someone is exhibiting suspicious behavior, people tend to become more comfortable over time with a person. We are often most suspicious at our first interaction with a stranger and tend to lower our guard. This is well known by predators, con-artists & criminals and used to great affect. Of course if one does something suspicious or the other person is acutely perceptive, said complacency will not set in. Usually to have this disposition one would need to be professionally trained as it is just a matter of human psychology.

[Aardra]

I sometimes inspect people just by reflex to read their descriptions, so...

[Xerah]

You did the exact same thing when you judged people who examine you as not nice. I was showing you the flip side. I literally just copied your comment and replaced the context.

That said, I explained it very well above.

The "disguiser" doesn't go around emoting his disguise use any more than a looker needs to emote looking at someone. The mechanics exist to allow for this given that our characters are not us and can pick up on things that a normal person wouldn't.

The mechanics allow this once every X time and this it is fully nice and reasonable to do.

[Anomandaris]

You did the exact same thing when you judged people who examine you as not nice. I was showing you the flip side. I literally just copied your comment and replaced the context.

That said, I explained it very well above.

The "disguiser" doesn't go around emoting his disguise use any more than a looker needs to emote looking at someone. The mechanics exist to allow for this given that our characters are not us and can pick up on things that a normal person wouldn't.

The mechanics allow this once every X time and this it is fully nice and reasonable to do.

Very well, I'll edit that bit out. A fair premise that at least a portion of ppl are considering this as a baseline assumption for the behavior. I disagree on the logic of the dynamic perception but agree to disagree.

[Anomandaris]

I sometimes inspect people just by reflex to read their descriptions, so...

Yah I do this as well. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with inspecting a PC. I was more commenting on the propensity for people to inspect over and over when disguised to break a disguise. And was curious if this was ok to RP as "noticeable" on the receiving end.

I almost wish that the range for viable inspection was just a bit smaller so it was more reasonable that the PC could actually be giving someone a thorough look, though that may not sit well with others.

[magistrasa]

The "disguiser" doesn't go around emoting his disguise use any more than a looker needs to emote looking at someone.

To be fair, the disguiser doesn't have to emote that they're disguised because... the fact is literally floating above their head at all times.

For my part, I find myself reactively examining disguised people all the time as soon as I see the tag - less because I want to break the disguise, and more because I want to read their description, because I just sort of assume that the disguised person is going to be interesting. Then again I'm probably helping disguisers if anything, I have 0 spot, I'm just feeding y'all some extra piety.

[Griefmaker]

I sometimes inspect people just by reflex to read their descriptions, so...

Same. And often I do it more than once because I forget small details as time goes on in RP and want to try and weave in parts of what the player has created in their description. But for me, I have self-restraint which from most recent posts about metagaming seems in exceptionally short supply, so if my character does not break a disguise the first time...if I somehow do it after and am not actively trying, I ignore it.

Unless the character has no description. Then they get spammed, because they are obviously trying to hide something.

[Flower Power]

It's perfectly reasonable to expect someone who is in disguise to have to make multiple checks to avoid detection, even in a single interaction with a single person. Interacting with someone while pretending to be someone you are not should be risky, it takes effort and skill to maintain one's cover throughout the course of a given period of interaction - just because some one didn't immediately recognize you doesn't mean that you, as the disguiser, won't accidentally end up giving something away midconversation - or they, as the spotter, won't have a breakthrough.

It's reasonable, it's logical, and it makes perfect sense overall.

[TheRoyalMagus]

I think it would be great to inspect someone without trying to break their disguise. Personally, I have a hard time remembering details and I like to be able to consistently refer to someones description. But, with disguised characters I refrain because I don't know want to know as a player.

Maybe a cool toggle for inspecting vs just looking at someone. Unless this is a thing already and I'm just slow on the draw?

[Orian_666]

There's a 6 minute CD on trying to break someones disguise (at least I think it's 6, it's definitely a few minutes either way).

So the only situation where you're going to be checked multiple times by the same spotter is if you're in their vicinity for an extended period of time and in such a situation it stands to reason that someone with enough spot to actually break a good disguisers disguise is going to be a person that is almost constantly aware of their surroundings and is inspecting and investigating them constantly ("Detect Mode" is automatic when standing still, for all races, for example)

What i'm getting at is that if you're near people for a long time while disguised then they're going to be looking at you (and everyone else) a lot, that's just natural, this means there's plenty chance that whether it be sooner or later they're going to spot something off about your appearance that gives away the fact you're disguising yourself, if they pass the roll and have the skill.

Having to emote every time you inspect someone, limited to those disguised or not, is just silly because it's a natural and extremely passive thing to do. Inspecting someone isn't standing 1 foot away from them and looking them up and down incredibly obviously, it can simply be a glance in passing, or a casual scan of the crowd in a busy square every now and then, it's up to the individual characters Spot skill to determine if they'd have the ability to notice something that's off during those natural moments of observation.

[Anomandaris]

There's a 6 minute CD on trying to break someones disguise (at least I think it's 6, it's definitely a few minutes either way).

So the only situation where you're going to be checked multiple times by the same spotter is if you're in their vicinity for an extended period of time and in such a situation it stands to reason that someone with enough spot to actually break a good disguisers disguise is going to be a person that is almost constantly aware of their surroundings and is inspecting and investigating them constantly ("Detect Mode" is automatic when standing still, for all races, for example)

What i'm getting at is that if you're near people for a long time while disguised then they're going to be looking at you (and everyone else) a lot, that's just natural, this means there's plenty chance that whether it be sooner or later they're going to spot something off about your appearance that gives away the fact you're disguising yourself, if they pass the roll and have the skill.

Having to emote every time you inspect someone, limited to those disguised or not, is just silly because it's a natural and extremely passive thing to do. Inspecting someone isn't standing 1 foot away from them and looking them up and down incredibly obviously, it can simply be a glance in passing, or a casual scan of the crowd in a busy square every now and then, it's up to the individual characters Spot skill to determine if they'd have the ability to notice something that's off during those natural moments of observation.

Ah I didn't realize it was so long. I imagine it still prompts the dialogue alert then but is an auto-failure within the timeframe?

[Orian_666]

Ah I didn't realize it was so long. I imagine it still prompts the dialogue alert then but is an auto-failure within the timeframe?

Nope, no dialogue alert, no attempt to break disguise, nothing happens until the timer goes down.

My guess is that you were in a situation, or a few situations, where multiple people (high spot or not) were constantly checking you every few minutes. Couldn't tell you why, maybe some had spot, maybe some thought you might have just low enough Bluff/Perform so they could beat you on a really high roll, maybe some just wanted to annoy you for fun.

The Cooldown is per character, so say I try to break your disguise and fail, my CD starts. Then 1 minute later another person tries it and they fail, their CD starts. Then 1 minute after that another person, and so on for four of five people. But every 6 minutes (for each individual) they try again. You could be getting a notification of a failed or passed check every 1 minute but in reality each individual player is only checking you every 6 minutes (or however long it is) from when they first tried to.

Either way worst case scenario when there's only 1 person doing it is that they'll try every 6 or so minutes.

[Skibbles]

NPCs also check you and with very frequent regularity. What you think might be getting scanned over and over again by players could in fact be NPCs in the area. They spam it constantly.

That said it still stands to reason that the more you linger and put your skills at subterfuge to play, the higher the chance that someone is going to think something is off. There's nothing wrong with inspecting other players repeatedly and certainly not something to pin on other players as meta gaming.

[Ninjimmy]

Agree with posted above. Honestly, it's way more meta that the disguised player gets a ping telling them they've been rumbled.

Someone looking at someone from a couple of feet away or while stealthed is way less Meta than someone who was in disguise suddenly knowing they've been made with no external sign and then leaving as soon as.

Never mind that examine is the IC equivalent of just looking at someone (and then having the good manners to not mention they kept their description with their name in it for their disguised form which keeps happening with me) and when someone's disguised you might check it again (I do it for non-disguised players if I feel like I missed a detail last time).

[magistrasa]

I do think there's a good argument to tie disguise breaking to -investigate. Spot on this server does kind of a lot, whereas the -investigate feature gets skipped over constantly - and for completely understandable reasons. I fully invested into it with my diviner, reaching search/lore numbers in the 70s, and found it to be great at telling you things you already knew, but otherwise pretty lackluster. All things considered, Search is probably a much more applicable skill for cracking disguises than Spot anyhow. Likewise, you could maybe tie learning about someone's pirate tattoos and racial details to -investigate, so all these things aren't made immediately apparent to someone who's simply trying to look at the surface level details of whoever's standing in front of them. Doesn't even need an emote attached to the action! Mind you, I'm sure it'd be a lot of work and I have no idea how someone would code that sort of thing, but hey, it's worth a thought experiment.

[Diegovog]

It becomes super awkward as a character when you know that if you keep scrutinizing some people eventually you find their true self. So you just keep doing it, always, to a level of being paranoid. Especially when looking for someone.

In my opinion I don't think there should be rolls tied to breaking disguises (always assume a 10?) nor have a godsave on disguise. You can either see through it or you don't. Makes it MUCH riskier to rely on disguises. Would also save a lot of piety in friendly meetings.

And moving breaking disguises from spot to search is clearly bad as it would completely unbalance all the current gear, would favor the skill-heavy and INT based meta classes who already have so much and ruin completely spot as it's far easier to detect people using listen (both because of gear and also because it's much harder to buff move silently than it is to buff hide).

[Nitro]

It makes perfect sense to me that the longer someone stays in conversation with someone, the more chances for them to slip up. Represented in game as more spot checks versus disguise. Inspecting someone in arelith isn't some kind of intense scrutiny, it's literally just giving them a glance or look over, something everyone does to people around them all the time.

[magistrasa]

moving breaking disguises from spot to search is clearly bad as it would completely unbalance all the current gear

Sorry, that argument doesn't quite pass the smell test. There's nothing inherently "unbalanced" about not being able to break someone's disguise because there's no combat advantage one way or another. It just makes Spot the skill you take when you want to "win" roleplay, and therefore makes it way more important than it needs to be. Bluff is a roleplay skill, so why is it unbalanced to have it countered by another roleplay skill?
(As for concern over current gear, well. I'm going to be honest with you. I don't care. Gold is more abundant than water on this server. If you're really such a fanatic about uncovering disguisers, you can get new gear. I just don't care.)

would favor the skill-heavy and INT based meta classes who already have so much

Well, bear in mind that disguisers (unless they're bards) are already dealing with an unfavorable situation because they have to sink points into a skill that doesn't help them at all beyond the ability to change their name. Oftentimes by sacrificing combat capability - for plenty of disguisers, they're sacrificing Spot for Bluff already! I fail to see a good reason for why the people who want to uncover them shouldn't make a similar sacrifice.

and ruin completely spot as it's far easier to detect people using listen (both because of gear and also because it's much harder to buff move silently than it is to buff hide).

This just doesn't make sense. Sure, it's easier to detect stealthers with Listen, but you can't target someone you've detected with Listen. I'm pretty sure you can't even examine them? Whereas with Spot, you don't have that restriction. That sounds like a fair trade-off that makes the choice between the two skills more interesting.

To reiterate, removing Spot's counter to Disguise doesn't kill the skill and doesn't suddenly make it worthless. It just makes it less of a no-brainer to invest in, and raises the value of other skills by comparison.

[ReverentBlade]

Spot is wisdom. Search is intelligence.

Sense Motive is a wisdom-based skill. Spot is the superior analogue.

[theCountofMonteCristo]

Spot is wisdom. Search is intelligence.

Sense Motive is a wisdom-based skill. Spot is the superior analogue.

Spot is also when dealing with living things. Seeing people who are hiding, or trying to hide who they are (disguise)
Search is about things. Finding traps, investigating blood or rubble, finding treasure, secret passages and such.

Spot is the logical one for dealing with disguise.

[msheeler]

I didn't read all the text here but I'll share recent personal experience. I've walked into events disguised and had the <someone failed to break your disguise> pop off in strings of a dozen, followed by a brief cool down and more strings of a dozen. It is tiring. I've also had people fail to break my disguise, pause for a minute then pop true-sights and get the message again. Right. In. Front. Of. Me.